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Does the librarian who i joined with a squad of purifiers get to cast his psychic moves independant of the purifier squad? Ex. My lib casts cleansing flame and then the purifiers cast cleansing flame... if this is not possible then i am wasting one of my three pychic powers my lib has when i use the purifiers cleansing flame? Interpretations?

do both have the cleansing flame power? then yes. simple as that. you would be able to cast it for the unit and the IC.

I do not have the dex or rulebook in front of me here at work and will need to check when home

No, you may not:

MANIFESTING PSYCHIC POWERS
...but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase.

If the IC is part of the unit, he is part of the unit and no unit can cast the same power twice in the same phase.

Page 24 - Manifesting Psychic Powers
"{...} no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase."
Page 24 - Select Psyker and Psychic Power
"{...} Then, select a psychic power known to the selected unit that the unit has not already attempted to manifest in this Psychic phase."

Due to the rather schizophrenic use of the terminology "Psyker unit" by GW in the 7th rules, it could suspected that what they really meant was "Psyker model" and not "Psyker unit", but RAW the answer is no.

Kyck24 wrote:
Does the librarian who i joined with a squad of purifiers get to cast his psychic moves independant of the purifier squad?

RIght now, nobody knows. The rulebook is an absolute mess when it comes to defining psyker units... The common theory is that ICs are supposed to be still treated like a separate unit for the purposes of resolving psychic powers, which would allow them both to cast.

However, as the rules stand, the IC and the squad count as a single unit, and so for the purposes of the psychic phase are in all ways a single entity. And so can only cast a given psychic power once.

How we resolve Perils or determine the psyker unit's Mastery Level if the IC is a different level to the squad is anyone's guess.

It is a good cautionary tale though;
Do not refer to Units when talking about something found on individual Models!

 insaniak wrote:

Kyck24 wrote:
Does the librarian who i joined with a squad of purifiers get to cast his psychic moves independant of the purifier squad?

RIght now, nobody knows. The rulebook is an absolute mess when it comes to defining psyker units... The common theory is that ICs are supposed to be still treated like a separate unit for the purposes of resolving psychic powers, which would allow them both to cast.

However, as the rules stand, the IC and the squad count as a single unit, and so for the purposes of the psychic phase are in all ways a single entity. And so can only cast a given psychic power once.

How we resolve Perils or determine the psyker unit's Mastery Level if the IC is a different level to the squad is anyone's guess.

pretty much this,

RAW = stupid as we cant differentiate for things like perils and WC's ect


RAI and how most people play it, is that each pysker unit is a separate psyker unit for resolving powers, so each psyker who knows the witchfire can cast it

JinxDragon wrote:
It is a good cautionary tale though;
Do not refer to Units when talking about something found on individual Models!

The biggest place where they mess this up is Unit Type, which definitely needs to be Model Type.

Oh that one causes me to spontaneously Rant, but I will control it everyone sake this time....
It really has to be a joke, Game Workshop even named a chapter after it!

 Quanar wrote:
Page 24 - Manifesting Psychic Powers
"{...} no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase."
Page 24 - Select Psyker and Psychic Power
"{...} Then, select a psychic power known to the selected unit that the unit has not already attempted to manifest in this Psychic phase."

Due to the rather schizophrenic use of the terminology "Psyker unit" by GW in the 7th rules, it could suspected that what they really meant was "Psyker model" and not "Psyker unit", but RAW the answer is no.

RAW answer is yes, and RAI also - yes. UMRR

 Darog wrote:
RAW answer is yes, and RAI also - yes. UMRR

You just quoted the rule that shows that the RAW is most certainly 'no'.

 Darog wrote:
UMRR

I'm not familiar with this acronym, and the forum isn't offering a hover-over explanation. Can someone explain?

So then my question is. If they share psychic powers would they also not share mastery level? Due to anyone joining the brotherhood of psykers it wuld just be one ML you go by. And then
In that case theres half as many warp charges are generated and units like draigo-star are being used completely wrong... if draigo a lib and/or stern all join the paladins then if they all share pychic powers they all share ML which would mean at max 2 or 3 powers could be used? Which would mean people casting GOI, Sanctuary prescience precognition invisibility hammer hand Vod or any combination, would all be using way more powers than the "unit" is entitled too. For this reason alone it makes me feel that ICs psychic powers are used independant of the unit it joined.

Kyck24 wrote:
So then my question is. If they share psychic powers would they also not share mastery level? Due to anyone joining the brotherhood of psykers it wuld just be one ML you go by. And then
In that case theres half as many warp charges are generated and units like draigo-star are being used completely wrong... if draigo a lib and/or stern all join the paladins then if they all share pychic powers they all share ML which would mean at max 2 or 3 powers could be used? Which would mean people casting GOI, Sanctuary prescience precognition invisibility hammer hand Vod or any combination, would all be using way more powers than the "unit" is entitled too. For this reason alone it makes me feel that ICs psychic powers are used independant of the unit it joined.

That is exactly the problem... the current psychic phase questions are currently so poorly written that they break when an IC with Psyker is attached to any unit. With no indication of whether you count warp charges for the IC, the unit, or both. In theory it should be both, but with the poor wording, there is no answer.

Kyck24 wrote:
So then my question is. If they share psychic powers would they also not share mastery level?

Yes, as I already pointed out. The unit is counted when determining ML or the number of Warp Charges for the phase.

...which would mean at max 2 or 3 powers could be used?

Despite the vague reference to it doing so at the start of the psychic rules, Mastery Level has no actual effect on how many powers a unit can cast.

We're told that how many powers a psyker can cast 'depends on' his Mastery Level, but we're never told how it depends on it. Something being dependent on something else does not mean that it equals it. It's a meaningless rule.

The way we play it is resolving powers (for perils) and generating WC they are individual units. For manifesting powers they are the same (Powers like force affect the whole unit for example).

 Bausk wrote:
The way we play it is resolving powers (for perils) and generating WC they are individual units. For manifesting powers they are the same (Powers like force affect the whole unit for example).

So a psyker joining a non-psychic unit can no longer cast any powers? Is that really how you play it?

No, I said nothing of the sort. We play it from the perspective of the different format of the individual rules. For WC generation it's a matter of making the MLs count, which to us makes sense. For applying perils and other effects like last memories rules etc applying it to the psyker that cast the power majes sense. As for the new rule of not being able to manifest multiple of the same power we apply it to the. current state unit in context of the battle, which again makes sense to us.

WCs and perils etc are very individual contexts. So we treat them as such when they reference psychic unit. Manifesting limitation of one attempt per unit is both individual and multiple in context so we treat it as either depended on the unit at the time of casting.

 Bausk wrote:
No, I said nothing of the sort. We play it from the perspective of the different format of the individual rules. For WC generation it's a matter of making the MLs count, which to us makes sense. For applying perils and other effects like last memories rules etc applying it to the psyker that cast the power majes sense. As for the new rule of not being able to manifest multiple of the same power we apply it to the. current state unit in context of the battle, which again makes sense to us.

WCs and perils etc are very individual contexts. So we treat them as such when they reference psychic unit. Manifesting limitation of one attempt per unit is both individual and multiple in context so we treat it as either depended on the unit at the time of casting.

If the Psyker counts as part of the unit for manifesting powers does the unit he is in have the psyker or psychic brotherhood rule? Ifnot how are you selecting that unit to manifest a power?

Playing that manifesting occurs at the unit level not only prevents a unit and attached IC from manifesting the same power it also prevents an IC Psyker from manifesting at all when attached to a non-psychic unit.

Well no it doesn't have to. When an IC is joined yo a nonpsyker unit we consider the only applicable context for manifesting to apply to the IC psyker unit. The reverse also, a non psyker IC attached to a psyker unit has no bearing on psyker rules.

A psyker attached to a BHoP unit is both separate units for WCs and perils/similar effects but also the same unit for manifesting powers.

We play it this way because we believe this is the way it was intended to be played. It doesn't completely nerf psykers to the point of uselessness but removes the super deathstar psyker combined units from 6th that just used the same boring powers add nausea.

It simultaneously makes psykers
the epic threat they now are in 7th and makes you play a psyker heavy army more tactically rather than blobing them up in one unit.

You're welcome to disagree and play it differently. I hope that its clear to you how we play the psyker rules now, as I'm sure you were just repeatedly questioning our HWYPI for clarification and not to provoke pointless debate.

If the answer is yes, Jetseer deathstar works as in 6th. If the answer is no, for each failed test it crumbles more and more.

I'd go with no.