Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2014/09/26 02:35:03
Subject: "Remember Newton? Einstein? Neil deGrasse Tyson?
Meghan DeMaria wrote:Physics professor says she has proof that black holes don't exist
Black holes have inspired everything from sci-fi films to questionably racist greeting cards — which is all the more surprising considering that, according to one scientist, they may not even exist.
Laura Mersini-Houghton, a physics professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, says she has mathematic proof that black holes "can never come into being in the first place," according to a statement from the university. Black holes, scientists have long believed, are the "ultimate unknown," because they are "the blackest and most dense objects in the universe." Mersini-Houghton, though, wants to disprove common ideas about the elusive black holes.
Mersini-Houghton looked at two leading theories of the universe, Einstein's theory of gravity and a fundamental law of quantum theory. The theories appear to contradict each other — the quantum theory law says that "no information from the universe can ever disappear," while Einstein's theory "predicts the formation of black holes." But Mersini-Houghton has merged what was known as the "information law paradox," and her findings will make scientists "reimagine the fabric of space-time" and "rethink the origins of the universe," according to the university.
"I'm still not over the shock," Mersini-Houghton said in the statement. "We've been studying this problem for more than 50 years, and this solution gives us a lot to think about."
Previous thought suggests that black holes form when stars collapse, and their gravitational pull creates the black hole. Stephen Hawking proved that black holes release radiation, and Mersini-Houghton has built on Hawking's ideas. She argues that when stars release radiation, they also lose mass — so much mass, in fact, that the star wouldn't have enough density to ever become a black hole.
"Physicists have been trying to merge these two theories — Einstein's theory of gravity and quantum mechanics — for decades, but this scenario brings these two theories together, into harmony," Mersini-Houghton said in the statement. "And that's a big deal."
Of course this doesn't address what's at the center of galaxies.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/26 02:37:33
2014/09/26 02:42:37
Subject: Re:"Remember Newton? Einstein? Neil deGrasse Tyson?
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2014/09/26 02:46:11
Subject: Re:"Remember Newton? Einstein? Neil deGrasse Tyson?
Scientist makes outrageous and unbelievable claim, publishes several articles on it, is set for life at her university despite the inaccuracy of it.
I'm not saying that's what happened here, like Ouze I don't have expertise in this area, but I do know how universities work, which makes me lean towards that sort of cynical assumption.
I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own...
2014/09/26 02:47:39
Subject: "Remember Newton? Einstein? Neil deGrasse Tyson?
motyak wrote: Scientist makes outrageous and unbelievable claim, publishes several articles on it, is set for life at her university despite the inaccuracy of it.
I'm not saying that's what happened here, like Ouze I don't have expertise in this area, but I do know how universities work, which makes me lean towards that sort of cynical assumption.
That's how I view the Global Warming movement.
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2014/09/26 03:27:30
Subject: "Remember Newton? Einstein? Neil deGrasse Tyson?
motyak wrote: Scientist makes outrageous and unbelievable claim, publishes several articles on it, is set for life at her university despite the inaccuracy of it.
I'm not saying that's what happened here, like Ouze I don't have expertise in this area, but I do know how universities work, which makes me lean towards that sort of cynical assumption.
That's how I view the Global Warming movement.
How is a scientific consensus anything similar to one person making outrageous and unbelievable claims?
2014/09/26 03:35:10
Subject: "Remember Newton? Einstein? Neil deGrasse Tyson?
motyak wrote: Scientist makes outrageous and unbelievable claim, publishes several articles on it, is set for life at her university despite the inaccuracy of it.
I'm not saying that's what happened here, like Ouze I don't have expertise in this area, but I do know how universities work, which makes me lean towards that sort of cynical assumption.
That's how I view the Global Warming movement.
How is a scientific consensus anything similar to one person making outrageous and unbelievable claims?
Global warmings not real!! Jesus is cooling the Earth! *sarcasm*
Seriously though, cannot take people who don't believe in global warming seriously
I can't feel like I know enough to be able to take a side. I've seen enough motives, mudslinging, and bull gak science on both sides to not be able to feel informed enough to make an opinion.
This applies to global warming and black holes. I suspect that Newton, Einstein, Tyson, and Hawking are probably on the right side though. I mean, if I had to decide to today. I do computers, not space.
That's pretty interesting. I am curious though, if she actually proves that black holes don't exist, what are the things that we call black holes then? Something else?
I am certainly not an expert, but it sounds to me that this is more of "Black holes are something different than what we originally thought" rather than "Black holes don't exist."
Hordini wrote: That's pretty interesting. I am curious though, if she actually proves that black holes don't exist, what are the things that we call black holes then? Something else?
I am certainly not an expert, but it sounds to me that this is more of "Black holes are something different than what we originally thought" rather than "Black holes don't exist."
If her proof is correct it shows that a black hole cannot form during a star collapse in our universe. (Simplified) It will loose mass fast enough as hawking radiation during collapse to never vanish behind its own schwarzschild radius and thus never form a black hole. Her proof makes use of some simplifying assumptions like spherical symmetry and a homogeneous density of the initial star as is common in the initial study of black hole properties. Furthermore she claims that she can drop those assumptions and show a similar behavior for a more natural star in a coming article. Interesting.
I agree with your second line in so far as if her proof is correct for every possible star then black holes won't form and the massive objects in the center of galaxies are something else entirely.
2014/09/26 13:36:05
Subject: "Remember Newton? Einstein? Neil deGrasse Tyson?
motyak wrote: Scientist makes outrageous and unbelievable claim, publishes several articles on it, is set for life at her university despite the inaccuracy of it.
I'm not saying that's what happened here, like Ouze I don't have expertise in this area, but I do know how universities work, which makes me lean towards that sort of cynical assumption.
That's how I view the Global Warming movement.
How is a scientific consensus anything similar to one person making outrageous and unbelievable claims?
Hordini wrote: That's pretty interesting. I am curious though, if she actually proves that black holes don't exist, what are the things that we call black holes then? Something else?
I am certainly not an expert, but it sounds to me that this is more of "Black holes are something different than what we originally thought" rather than "Black holes don't exist."
If her proof is correct it shows that a black hole cannot form during a star collapse in our universe. (Simplified) It will loose mass fast enough as hawking radiation during collapse to never vanish behind its own schwarzschild radius and thus never form a black hole. Her proof makes use of some simplifying assumptions like spherical symmetry and a homogeneous density of the initial star as is common in the initial study of black hole properties. Furthermore she claims that she can drop those assumptions and show a similar behavior for a more natural star in a coming article. Interesting.
I agree with your second line in so far as if her proof is correct for every possible star then black holes won't form and the massive objects in the center of galaxies are something else entirely.
Yeah... that's the gist of what I've got.
Still *researching* this and trowling the scientific blogs for this.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dogma wrote: This is the original article, if anyone is interested.
Good find!
It's got MATH! w00t!
Now, let's see if I can decipher that.
Who's bringing the booze?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/26 13:38:27
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2014/09/26 13:45:20
Subject: "Remember Newton? Einstein? Neil deGrasse Tyson?
motyak wrote: Scientist makes outrageous and unbelievable claim, publishes several articles on it, is set for life at her university despite the inaccuracy of it.
I'm not saying that's what happened here, like Ouze I don't have expertise in this area, but I do know how universities work, which makes me lean towards that sort of cynical assumption.
That's how I view the Global Warming movement.
How is a scientific consensus anything similar to one person making outrageous and unbelievable claims?
"consensus?"
We've been down that road bro.
It's not a movement and it's happening regardless of your beliefs.
2182/07/11 13:17:57
Subject: "Remember Newton? Einstein? Neil deGrasse Tyson?
motyak wrote: Scientist makes outrageous and unbelievable claim, publishes several articles on it, is set for life at her university despite the inaccuracy of it.
I'm not saying that's what happened here, like Ouze I don't have expertise in this area, but I do know how universities work, which makes me lean towards that sort of cynical assumption.
That's how I view the Global Warming movement.
How is a scientific consensus anything similar to one person making outrageous and unbelievable claims?
"consensus?"
We've been down that road bro.
It's not a movement and it's happening regardless of your beliefs.
We can take it to different thread or PM if you want.
My objection is the surrounding hysteria, not that its happening.
So, when someone starts throwing out loaded terms like "consensus", my BS-meter pings, because it's used to shut down the opposition.
It's like this thread. It's mainstream to accept how blackholes are formed due to Einstein / Hawkings... but, obviously, some scientists are challenging these theories and it's up to them to support those conflicting theories.
That's agood thingin the scientific community.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/26 13:57:32
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2014/09/26 13:54:04
Subject: "Remember Newton? Einstein? Neil deGrasse Tyson?
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2014/09/26 14:01:03
Subject: "Remember Newton? Einstein? Neil deGrasse Tyson?
So, when someone starts throwing out loaded terms like "consensus", my BS-meter pings, because it's used to shut down the opposition.
Personally I don't think there is really any consensus on the fact that bludgeoning someone in the head with a 3/4" steel pipe for 5 hours is likely to cause to death. First off a person is huge and the pipe isn't even an inch thick, something that small couldn't affect something that big. Secondly god made man, man made the pipe, the work of man cannot destroy the work of god. Thirdly I've never met anyone who has been bludgeoned for 5 hours with a 3/4" steel pipe, I've never talked to anyone who has ever been bludgeoned with a 3/4" steel pipe, and I've never seen anyone get bludgeoned for 5 hours with a 3/4" steel pipe. Finally, my bosses brother owns a 3/4" inch steel pipe factory and he's confident they don't make them to bludgeon people with for 5 hours.
All-in-All the issue is definitely up in their air and anyone claiming there is a "Consensus" on the issue is just saying that to shut down the opposition, that really sets of my BS-meter.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/26 14:01:26
2014/09/26 14:05:27
Subject: "Remember Newton? Einstein? Neil deGrasse Tyson?
I did try to circle it back to the topic on hand by pointing out that it's a good thing when scientists question facets of existing theories or propose new ones. It's the rigor of this process is what makes "science" such a powerful tool, because scientists with new theories/ideas have to fight hard to get their ideas accepted, which are then proven to be sound based on scientific principles and not corrupted by political process.
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2014/09/26 14:54:35
Subject: "Remember Newton? Einstein? Neil deGrasse Tyson?
whembly wrote: It's like this thread. It's mainstream to accept how blackholes are formed due to Einstein / Hawkings... but, obviously, some scientists are challenging these theories and it's up to them to support those conflicting theories.
That's agood thingin the scientific community.
Ever since discovering black holes as a possible solution to Einstein's field equations physicists have tried to find ways for nature to prevent the formation of black holes. That's nothing new or extraordinary and in contrast to climate change skeptics they have done so by studying current and new theories and then testing those with our current measurements.
2014/09/26 15:49:46
Subject: "Remember Newton? Einstein? Neil deGrasse Tyson?
In space, it sometimes happens that two galaxies are aligned in just the right way that the closer galaxy distorts and magnifies the appearance of the one behind it. For astronomers, finding these alignments is like coming across giant, cosmic magnifying glasses.
Now, a team of astronomers, including Daniel Stern from NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif., has found several rare examples of this phenomenon, called gravitational lensing, in which the foreground galaxy hosts an actively accreting supermassive black hole.
Such feeding black holes, called quasars, are among the brightest objects in the universe, far outshining the total starlight of their host galaxies. Because they are so bright, it is hard for astronomers to measure the mass of their host galaxies. However, gravitational lenses are invaluable for estimating the mass of a quasar's host galaxy. The amount of the background galaxy's distortion can be used to accurately measure the lensing galaxy's mass.
The team hopes to build an even bigger catalog of these quasar lenses, and to use these data to better understand the interplay between black hole feeding and star formation in galaxy evolution.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2014/09/26 20:35:07
Subject: "Remember Newton? Einstein? Neil deGrasse Tyson?
foreground galaxy hosts an actively accreting supermassive black hole
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/26 20:37:42
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
~1.5k
