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Im confused as to how the shots against a void shield are supposed to work. If a dev squad with 4 las cannons shoots at squad protected by a void shield generator with three shields, is that entire volley of shots against the first void shield? SHooting rules seem to indicate that all weapons of a specific type in a squad fire simultaneously. So lets say all 4 shots hit and then they all roll against the AV12 of the shield and then they al manage to pen or glance. Would that mean that the three layers of shield have been taken down (one for each las canon shot) and then the remaining shot hits the squad? Or would it mean that they fired four lascannon shots which all hit the shield at the same time obliterating the first shield and then the other shields have to be fired at by another shooter?

I guess what it really boils down to is are shields like additional hullpoints where one volley can strip multiple points or are they like separate vehicles? It kinda would make sense since there reall isn't anyway to hit the second shield with the first one still in place and since all the lascannons fire simultaneously how could they hit the second one before the first one has been taken down?

The void shield was written in 6ed when a units shooting was simultaneous. This is no longer the case in 7ed

If you collapse the void shield, then any remaining shots hit the original target.

neither one of those things answer my question. If you shoot lascannons they must all fire at the same time. That hasn't change. If you had a mixed squad you couldn't fire a lascannon and then a missile launcher and then another lascannon. All weapons of the same type fire at the same time. That hasn't changed. So if the four lascannons fire and they all hit then they all hit the first void shield. Even if they all glance and pen, that would and should all be against the first shield. They cant take down the second since the first is still up and they all shot at the first.

Keeps bleeding through as you collapse shields. In your example, you'll collapse all three void shield, and then score a hit on the unit that you originally targeted. I'm not sure whether you need to re-roll that 4th dice to determine to-wound results, or if you just have to roll the dice one at a time to see what happens.

All weapons of the same type fire simultaneously.

So if you shot 4 lascannons at 1 void shield, they'd all hit the void.

If you shot 1 missile, and 3 lascannons, shot the missile first and took down the void, the lascannons would go on the squad.

 Grey Templar wrote:
All weapons of the same type fire simultaneously.

So if you shot 4 lascannons at 1 void shield, they'd all hit the void.

If you shot 1 missile, and 3 lascannons, shot the missile first and took down the void, the lascannons would go on the squad.

Not quite. We are required to do armour pen singularly and separately. If the target has two shields and four lascannons we fired, both shields could be dropped and then the last two shots continue to the original target.

You resolve the shots 1 by 1 againgst the shields in the same manor you would againgst a vehicle squadron.

 Mulletdude wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
All weapons of the same type fire simultaneously.

So if you shot 4 lascannons at 1 void shield, they'd all hit the void.

If you shot 1 missile, and 3 lascannons, shot the missile first and took down the void, the lascannons would go on the squad.

Not quite. We are required to do armour pen singularly and separately. If the target has two shields and four lascannons we fired, both shields could be dropped and then the last two shots continue to the original target.

Where can this be found? I've been through the book and I can't find anything that addresses this. Everything I read makes it sound as if all the penetration rolls are done together which in my mind indicates that the shots can't affect the second shield as the entire volley is used to fire at the first shield. I can't find anything that would indicate that shots from the same volley would affect secondary shields. So you can't just do them one at a time and hope the last ones make it through. Can anyone show me where it actually says otherwise or gives example?

As I understand the RAW, that one volley of lascannon a could only target one shield. If there was say a missile launcher it could target a secondary shield along with any other weapons.

So basically, you would need say a squad with a lascannon, missile launcher, plasma cannon and heavy bolter. The first three would take out a shield each as each previous weapon will have destroyed one and then allowed the next weapon to fire in succession as opposed to unison. The heavy bolter would then be able to fire at the originally targeted squad since the shield are down. I can't find anything RAW or even RAI that seems to contradict this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
You resolve the shots 1 by 1 againgst the shields in the same manor you would againgst a vehicle squadron.

It sounds reasonable but I can't find anything that backs that up. The rules state: “Each projected void shield has an Armour Value of 12. A glancing or penetrating hit (or any hit from a Destroyer weapon) scored against a projected void shield causes it to collapse. If all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead. At the end of each of the controlling player’s turns, roll a dice for each projected void shield that has collapsed; each roll of 5+ instantly restores one."

You target the unit protected and roll with 4 LAscannon shots. The 4 hit, but only glances or pens get through. So even if all 4 hit and glance it is all against the one shield (“Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected shield.") notice how it says shield and not shields. Even in the instance where you might have destroyed the last remaining shield, the rule states that "further hits strike the original target instead" notice how it says "further" instead of "remaining". It's saying that if the firer has more shooting after that that they can target the unit now, not apply their remaining hits that they've already rolled for both to hit and to penetrate the shield.

It is a very old thread but these things where discussed in depth when the Rules where newer and even less understood:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/567511.page

Take care to notice how we are resolving this attack against a Special Rule itself, as that is very... very... very unusual and leads to all sorts of problems.

So after reading through that thread I can't figure out what they decided. I feel as though it is in line with what I was saying but it's quite a convoluted discussion. Also, since there was a definite change to the order that shooting happens in 7th would that impact the rule differently? I feel like the "remaining hits" vs "further hits" didn't make a difference in 6th as all shooting was simultaneous but since that is no longer the case, it seems like it would have a definite impact on the rules. Notably I refer to the example I gave earlier. About the dev squad with varied weapons. That squad would have further hits. I feel that bolsters my argument but to be honest I couldn't tell after all 6 pages of that thread what they actually decided on.

Lets go through the steps, one by one.

You fire your devestators at the target unit, scoring 4 hits with the lazcannons.

Void shield kicks in, and now each of the 4 lazcannon hits has to be allocated to the shields...

Normally, againgst a single vehicle you would roll all 4 penetration attempts at once, however this is not the case with a void shield.

You never targeted the void shield itself, so you have to follow a slightly different procedure for allocations, taking each hit 1 by 1 on the shields to see if they collapse, which works in the exact same manor that shooting at a vehicle squadron works.

Roll pen on first lazcannon, if it pens or glances the first shield is down. Since there are still shields remaining, the rest of the lazcannon shots do not have permission to allocate to the original target so you continue onto the next shield, and so on, till all the shields are collapsed.

At this point any remaining shots are reallocated to the original unit that was fired upon.


That is exactly how it works. Pretty simple really. If your trying to dig through the rules to find a way around this, your either being an arse or your just curious how bad GW writes rules. If your in the latter camp, i'll let you continue arguing, but if your in the other camp just stop trying.

Which is why I quoted the link, cause it is a headache and a half to unravel how 'further' works in the context of 6th Edition....

The changes to 7th Edition, in particular how Weapon Groups are resolved, does create an interesting little twist to that discussion but it is not enough to change my view on this matter. The core still stands as it is still very much impossible for there to be 'further hit's against the Special Rule itself. This is because any Shots which are Resolved after the Shield collapses can never trigger the Rule allowing them to be shunted away from the Targeted Unit to begin with, so a line within the Rule stating what to do with the 'further shots' is completely meaningless. Besides, for the most part this is still a 6th Edition Rule that was written long before the concept of Weapon Groups, so it isn't likely that the word 'further' was selected in relation to Units with multiple types of Weapons. Game Workshop simply doesn't write good enough Rules to accept that level of 'forward planning,' this site wouldn't exist if they had that firm a grasp on what they where doing.

Still, the thing I kept trying to highlight in that thread is a simple misconception that many have:
There is no such thing as simultaneous Rule resolution!

While certain actions do occur simultaneously on the time-line itself, the Rules we use to Resolve those situations will always be done sequentially. This is why we have instructions telling us how to determine if X comes before Y, for no matter how simultaneous the two events, two Rules containing the clause "immediately" and "start of the Turn" for example, we are still required to resolve one Rule completely before moving over to the next. Even in situations where we are using 'fast dice' method, we are not rolling all these dice together to represent a simultaneous action but simply because it is faster to do so in situations where the order which the dice are rolled does not change the outcome of the sequence. In situations where we need to know the order in which the Results are shown, such as if a Rule triggers on the first successful Roll, we can no longer use the Fast Dice method and must return to rolling each dice sequentially.

For the Void Shields we have a Rule which triggers the moment 'a hit' is scored against the Target, so we need to know the order in which those Hits occurred.

JinxDragon wrote:
For the Void Shields we have a Rule which triggers the moment 'a hit' is scored against the Target, so we need to know the order in which those Hits occurred.

Yes but isn't this specifically where the rule changes to shooting in 7th come into play? Granted, the book was written for 6th but that doesn't change the fact that it is a part of 7th now and has to be used as such.

The hits occur in the order, by weapon name, which the unit chooses to fire them. Once fired, all weapons of the same name fire at the same time. Those shots are resolved, wounds are allocated and then the unit may proceed with shooting any remaining weapons (i.e. Causing "further" hits that can then be resolved against the unit targeted so long as the void shields were all collapsed. Since rolls for pen are done after rolling to hit, you then roll to pen the first shield. If at least one shot pens or glances then the shield collapses. If there are no further shields, any further hits by the shooter onto the original target unit are taken against the unit.

It seems pretty cut and dry. Much more so now with the changes to shooting in 7th

“Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected shield."

You roll to hit the unit, any hit "instead hits the projected shield." You roll to pen as you would a vehicle and whether you destroy it one time or four times it is dead and the shield is down. Now assuming it's the last one further hits will strike the unit.

The assumption that I'm not connecting with is that the shields are treated as vehicles in a squadron, where further hits would allocate to the next model in the unit. I can see nothing to back this up and if I'm missing it please tell me, but I see no reason that they shouldn't be treated as separate vehicles in which case whether you had one glance or ten pens once the shield is down the rest of the damage doesn't count for anything and certainly wouldn't transfer to the other shields anymore than they would from one independent tank to another.

There is one large mistake that you have made, which others have made in the past:
Assuming that an Advanced Rule must wait till the appropriate 'Step' in a Basic Sequence before being Resolved.

In this situation we are presented with a Basic sequence requiring that all To Hit Rolls are made first, then all To Wound Rolls as the hypothetical original target is a non-vehicle Unit, and then the rest of said sequence. We also have an Advanced Rule telling us that we must resolve those very same Hits utilizing the instructions within. As we can not obey one Rule without making it impossible to obey the other, we are requires to determine which of the conflicting Rules we have permission to ignore. As the Rule in question is 'codex specific,' well the closest thing that Fortifications have to a Codex, we are required to the Rule instead of moving through the steps of the Sequence.

In that context, a sentence stating that 'Further Hits' are returned to the Target is vital grants us permission to return to the Basic sequence in order to complete any Shots which have yet to be resolved.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
You never targeted the void shield itself, so you have to follow a slightly different procedure for allocations, taking each hit 1 by 1 on the shields to see if they collapse, which works in the exact same manor that shooting at a vehicle squadron works.

Very good way to put it.

If you think of a Squadron of 4 models: The 3 Void Shields in front of a "Target Unit Tank".

Firing 4 Las Canons could potentially (if you beat AV12) "kill" all 3 Void Shields and have 1 Hit on the "Target Unit Tank": 1 Hit to resolve against your original target.

JinxDragon wrote:
There is one large mistake that you have made, which others have made in the past:
Assuming that an Advanced Rule must wait till the appropriate 'Step' in a Basic Sequence before being Resolved.

I understand this argument and it makes sense from a certain perspective. My main problem with it though is tat it relies on an assumption as well. Its a murky subject to which we just seem to fall to opposite sides but there is nothing in the rules to justify taking the hits one by one. It makes sense and if it were on paper it would just be the way it is but as it stands, it seems more that that is something you have just decided to do in order to make this whole situation easier, but it doesn't seem to have any more RAW backing than taking the complete opposite stance on the issue.

After reading through the book, I can find nothing that says that penetrations rolls should be taken individually, only that for each hit one is taken.

In that context, a sentence stating that 'Further Hits' are returned to the Target is vital grants us permission to return to the Basic sequence in order to complete any Shots which have yet to be resolved.

this quote of the rule is inaccurate. It states that "if all void shields are collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead"

This falls directly in line with the new shooting changes in 7th. Notice how it doesn't say further hits are returned as that would indicate that they had been there before. Instead it says further hits strike the original target. Since a unit can only fire at one target it is simply stating that any further weapons that you fire with are not impeded by the shield and therefore strike the original target.

All shots of the same weapon type roll to hit together. If they hit on the unit then those hits are transferred to the shield and resolved against it. If it goes down great. If there are no remaining shields then further hits made by the squad strike the original target sine that's what they were shooting at and not the shield. I feel like the new shooting rules bring this special rule into much more clarity. In 6th it didn't make sense because any unit even if they had 100 types of weapons would never have any further hits due to all shooting being simultaneous which would indicate that the line about further hits had some relevant meaning that needed to be deduced. However, with the changes to 7th I don't believe that question even comes up. you don't have to wonder what it means by further hits because any squad with multiple weapon types will have further shots to take.

This rule as well as the original discussion may be holdovers from 6th but we still have to look at the rule anew through the eyes of 7th and I think that makes all the difference. You cant just make the argument that it was written for sixth so what is says doesn't apply or should be treated differently. We have to reexamine the rule completely in a 7th mindset and when you do that I don't feel that you encounter the same issues.

As for using a slightly different procedure for allocations, I don't see any support. All the hits on the unit hit the shield instead. not maybe, not if the shields stay up. They hit the shield (singular). They then resolve against that shield. If it stay up, they roll to pen, if it goes down, the hits go away as if it were a lone vehicle. They've still hit the shield. They cant then go and hit other things. otherwise, by the time your done, you've had one volley of fire hit 4 targets basically standing in line behind one another when all the shots were supposed to have been fired at the exact same time.

If you reconsider this rule with fresh eyes and disregard the argument from 6th I think you may find a new perspective on it.

"further hits" tells you it cannot be resolved simultaneously

To put it another way:

Your target is the unit inside the void shield. The void shield has a special rule that it blocks the attack, and if it is collapsed the rest of the shots go to the unit inside... which is then further blocked by the second void shield, which blocks the attacks, and if it is collapsed the rest of the shots go to the unit inside... which is then further blocked by the third void shield, which blocks the attacks, and if it is collapsed the rest of the shots go to the unit inside...

I think this order of operations works out just fine with the RAW, and is how they are intended to work. And in any case, almost any dice which collapses an AV12 void shield will also cause a wound (the only exception being T10 units), so there isn't even really an issue with just rolling the dice all at once.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"further hits" tells you it cannot be resolved simultaneously

I don't get that at all. Any squad with mixed weapon types can have further hits

As for the RAW. That exactly what Im going off of. Its the idea of taking the hits one at a time that has no basis in RAW that I can find. Can anyone actually show me any rules justification for this?

 Dramagod2 wrote:

In that context, a sentence stating that 'Further Hits' are returned to the Target is vital grants us permission to return to the Basic sequence in order to complete any Shots which have yet to be resolved.

this quote of the rule is inaccurate. It states that "if all void shields are collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead"

This falls directly in line with the new shooting changes in 7th. Notice how it doesn't say further hits are returned as that would indicate that they had been there before. Instead it says further hits strike the original target. Since a unit can only fire at one target it is simply stating that any further weapons that you fire with are not impeded by the shield and therefore strike the original target.

All shots of the same weapon type roll to hit together. If they hit on the unit then those hits are transferred to the shield and resolved against it. If it goes down great. If there are no remaining shields then further hits made by the squad strike the original target sine that's what they were shooting at and not the shield. I feel like the new shooting rules bring this special rule into much more clarity. In 6th it didn't make sense because any unit even if they had 100 types of weapons would never have any further hits due to all shooting being simultaneous which would indicate that the line about further hits had some relevant meaning that needed to be deduced. However, with the changes to 7th I don't believe that question even comes up. you don't have to wonder what it means by further hits because any squad with multiple weapon types will have further shots to take.

This rule as well as the original discussion may be holdovers from 6th but we still have to look at the rule anew through the eyes of 7th and I think that makes all the difference. You cant just make the argument that it was written for sixth so what is says doesn't apply or should be treated differently. We have to reexamine the rule completely in a 7th mindset and when you do that I don't feel that you encounter the same issues.

As for using a slightly different procedure for allocations, I don't see any support. All the hits on the unit hit the shield instead. not maybe, not if the shields stay up. They hit the shield (singular). They then resolve against that shield. If it stay up, they roll to pen, if it goes down, the hits go away as if it were a lone vehicle. They've still hit the shield. They cant then go and hit other things. otherwise, by the time your done, you've had one volley of fire hit 4 targets basically standing in line behind one another when all the shots were supposed to have been fired at the exact same time.

If you reconsider this rule with fresh eyes and disregard the argument from 6th I think you may find a new perspective on it.

I know they are space marines but, its pretty damn impressive that they went and fired so precisely in time that all 4 shots hit the shield at the same time. But in all seriousness the rule for if all void shields are collapsed further hits strike the original target instead, gives credence to being able to take out all 3 shields in one volley, otherwise why mention it? If we could only destroy one shield at a time or if there was only one shield then it would be just like shooting at a transport and since the basic rules are that if the rhino is destroyed then further hits against it are lost and not transferred to the unit inside then with the rules for void shields they would be treated like one unit.

Also with the difference between 6th and 7th shooting i believe that since it was written in 6th that was there to be more specific against units with mixed weapons. If you had 4 guys with bolters and one with a lascannon in 6th and you fired at a unit with one shield you could choose to resolve the cannon first so that you could take down the shield and then the remaining 4 guys could hit the guys inside. Now in 7th it acts the same way, with the exception you have to fire separately and in groups.

 Dramagod2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"further hits" tells you it cannot be resolved simultaneously

I don't get that at all. Any squad with mixed weapon types can have further hits

As for the RAW. That exactly what Im going off of. Its the idea of taking the hits one at a time that has no basis in RAW that I can find. Can anyone actually show me any rules justification for this?

RaW wrote:Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield. (...) A glancing or penetrating hit (or any hit from a Destroyer weapon) scored against a projected void shield causes it to collapse. If all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead.

Emphasis mine.
So, you roll To Hit with 4 Las Canons. You get 4 Hits.
You now have to roll to glance/pen the shields separately be cause the wording A glancing is not inferring "at least one". It is saying that 1 Glance is 1 shield.

You roll To Wound against the Void Shields: 3 Pens. What have you got left? 1 Las Canon Hit. Why? Because you have no permission to roll To Glance/Pen when there are no shields... So let's continue reading the rule:
"further hits strike the original target instead".
You have a further 1 Las Canon Hit when you have rolled to Pen against the shields: it strikes and roll To Wound against the original target instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
An old post amended for 7th. Edition:

 BlackTalos wrote:
The Shooting Sequence as we all know it, follows the following pattern, to which the SHA VSG Special Rule adds a section:

Phase 1 wrote:Nominate Unit to shoot
(No need to clear)

Phase 2 wrote:Choose a target.
(Fully within the void shield, here)

Phase 3 wrote:Select a Weapon
(The Example of 4 Las-Canons)

Phase 4 wrote:Roll to hit.
Roll a D6 for each shot fired.

Phase: VSG Special Rule wrote:First, you will notice how this is a step, a Special Rule step, where things happen according to the Special Rule. Not a "To Hit" stage where Blast Weapons rules count many models. In this step we have a hit portion, a "Roll to pen" portion and an allocation of Hits portion.
The Rule, from SHA:

Spoiler:

A Void Shield Generator has a single projected void shield. It can be upgraded to include additional layers of void shielding.

Each projected void shield has a 12" area of effect (measured from any point on the Void Shield Generator building), known as a Void Shield Zone. Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield. If a unit is within 12" of more than one Void Shield Generator, and so within more than one Void Shield Zone when it is hit, randomly determine which of the buildings’ projected void shields is hit.

Each projected void shield has an Armour Value of 12. A glancing or penetrating hit (or any hit from a Destroyer weapon) scored against a projected void shield causes it to collapse. If all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead. At the end of each of the controlling player’s turns, roll a dice for each projected void shield that has collapsed; each roll of 5+ instantly restores one shield.

Now, the shots that scored Hits in Phase 3 (" Any shooting attack (...) and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone") instead Hit the Void Shield.

Then, those hits given to you above, move to the next part: "A glancing or penetrating hit (or any hit from a Destroyer weapon) scored against a projected void shield causes it to collapse"
So you resolve the Armour Penetration until all of your shields are down.
Then:
" If all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead."
Those hits are then INSTEAD hitting the original target, so at this point of the phase, we are left with a number of hits on the target.

Phase 5 wrote:Roll to Wound.
You will have noticed, this is the Wounding Phase. Anything to do with the VSG Rule is now non-existant.
I quote the BRB:"For each shot that Hit, roll again(...)" These shots that hit are what is left of the attack that made through.

If it is an assumption, it is one I have come to because the Rulebook contains instructions informing us how to determine the Sequence and Timing in which Rules are resolved. These instructions that make it impossible for two Rules to be resolve at the same time, and as a core Rule it is as 'default' as you can get. Therefore one will need an Advanced Rule specifically telling us to ignore the instructions found within the sequencing Rule, which is very rare to see, in order to justify resolving two Rules simultaneously. Without that specific Exception to the default state, one does not have permission to simply ignore the Sequencing and Timing that the rulebook uses for Resolutions.

So tell me:
Where are you getting permission to resolve the Basic Shooting sequence and the Void Shield Rule simultaneously?

If that is for me Jinx, then i do not think they are simultaneous. The VSG rule is interrupting the Basic shooting Sequence at that point in time.

Just as Tesla adds 2 Hits at the approximately same time. (Tesla & VSG would be simultaneous)

There are probably more rules that interfere with Hits before they roll To Wound. Are they also simultaneous?

Another example would be Entropic Strike.

Sorry BlackTalos, I should of addressed who my post was directed towards.

That was meant for Dramagod2, who sated that I was assuming no two Rules can be resolved simultaneously. My reply was to address the fact we have something called Sequencing that makes it impossible to resolve two Rules simultaneously, even in situations where it is very obvious that two Rules fall on the same point in the timeline. As Sequences are nothing more then a number of Rules we follow in a certain order, it is very easy for them to be 'paused' while we are required to resolve an Advanced Rule that has injected itself in between two Rules within said sequence.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
To put it another way:

Your target is the unit inside the void shield. The void shield has a special rule that it blocks the attack, and if it is collapsed the rest of the shots go to the unit inside... which is then further blocked by the second void shield, which blocks the attacks, and if it is collapsed the rest of the shots go to the unit inside... which is then further blocked by the third void shield, which blocks the attacks, and if it is collapsed the rest of the shots go to the unit inside...

I think this order of operations works out just fine with the RAW, and is how they are intended to work. And in any case, almost any dice which collapses an AV12 void shield will also cause a wound (the only exception being T10 units), so there isn't even really an issue with just rolling the dice all at once.

This assumption is flawed - think about playing against Necrons. Imagine a squad of 20 Necron Warriors firing at your units protected by the void shields. Gauss glances on a 6.
So do you roll those hits, one at a time, until either a 6 is made, or what? Or you have 3 Gauss shields, and the Necrons are in rapid fire range. do you roll all ~26 hits (40*2/3) one at a time until you get to through the 3 shields? Seems...tedious.

However, that is the way I've played it, and the way i think it is intended to be played. But RAW is not 100% clear on this.

I'd roll them three at a time, then 2, and then one as the shields drop. Shouldn't take too long and is a once per game occurrence usually.

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
I'd roll them three at a time, then 2, and then one as the shields drop. Shouldn't take too long and is a once per game occurrence usually.

I would do the same, as they are the 3 same entities, and Eihnlazer's previous analogy to them being a Vehicle squadron also works (sort of)