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Fixing CC needs to be done on the core rules level, not the codex level.

I took a brief hiatus from 40k due to personal issues, but I think this is just going to extend it.

Seriously...ALL the good special characters gone? (Except Rakarth, and even he got hit with the nerf bat?)

I try, REALLY hard, to avoid caterwauling about the 'bad new codex,' but I seriously wish they hadn't even given us one. I think that I categorically would have preferred the old one. I've heard people say the changes were SOLELY to deny sales to third party miniature creators, but I cannot believe that a company as large and successful as GW would be as petty as that.

I can't think of a single change that actually happened that I've ever heard a Dark Eldar player ask for. By the flip side of the token, the changes I heard clamored for most (some form of generic leader on a skyboard, some form of generic leader on a bike, AA defense, anti-psyker defense) utterly failed to manifest.

I have very, very slim hopes that Haemonculus Covens will provide a foothold of mediocrity, otherwise my DE may find themselves going on a shelf for the next ten years. I know that's an overreaction, but this gak has just been so disheartening. I truly believed (at one point) that there was no such thing as a bad codex, but this has mightily shaken my faith in game balance. I know there's good stuff here, I can see that, but I'm having a hard time seeing them through the tears of mourning for Duke Sliscus, Baron Sathonyx, useful Beastpacks, and Ravagers that could move and shoot effectively.

@Jimsolo: all special characters without models are being pulled from codexes as they're being updated regardless of how good or bad they are.

I think if you compare DE to the other 7th ed codexes you'll find they aren't too far off. Yes, there is an issue with vehicle killing but at this point I feel it's an issue with the vehicle rules not working as well as they should. Anti-tank weapons aren't doing the job as well as they should and that's a fatal flaw in the current system, regardless of the good it does to stop parking lot armies from existing.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
@Jimsolo: all special characters without models are being pulled from codexes as they're being updated regardless of how good or bad they are.

I think if you compare DE to the other 7th ed codexes you'll find they aren't too far off. Yes, there is an issue with vehicle killing but at this point I feel it's an issue with the vehicle rules not working as well as they should. Anti-tank weapons aren't doing the job as well as they should and that's a fatal flaw in the current system, regardless of the good it does to stop parking lot armies from existing.

Unless of course you are space wolves, then you get two new special characters with sculpts.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I took a brief hiatus from 40k due to personal issues, but I think this is just going to extend it.

Seriously...ALL the good special characters gone? (Except Rakarth, and even he got hit with the nerf bat?)

I try, REALLY hard, to avoid caterwauling about the 'bad new codex,' but I seriously wish they hadn't even given us one. I think that I categorically would have preferred the old one. I've heard people say the changes were SOLELY to deny sales to third party miniature creators, but I cannot believe that a company as large and successful as GW would be as petty as that.

I can't think of a single change that actually happened that I've ever heard a Dark Eldar player ask for. By the flip side of the token, the changes I heard clamored for most (some form of generic leader on a skyboard, some form of generic leader on a bike, AA defense, anti-psyker defense) utterly failed to manifest.

I have very, very slim hopes that Haemonculus Covens will provide a foothold of mediocrity, otherwise my DE may find themselves going on a shelf for the next ten years. I know that's an overreaction, but this gak has just been so disheartening. I truly believed (at one point) that there was no such thing as a bad codex, but this has mightily shaken my faith in game balance. I know there's good stuff here, I can see that, but I'm having a hard time seeing them through the tears of mourning for Duke Sliscus, Baron Sathonyx, useful Beastpacks, and Ravagers that could move and shoot effectively.

I did see some good changes that a lot of people were asking for like Razorwings to fast attack and useable mandrakes and scourges. I think the new combat drugs are better, too.

For anti-air, we might not have gotten a dedicated skyfire unit, but I went ahead and bought another razorwing jetfighter because I think it's really become a fantastic option with the variety of targets it can handle (missiles wipe out infantry, lances take out armor in the air or on the ground) and all at a better price than it was.

I'd definitely say don't give up with DE yet, I think a lot of my army lists are stronger than ever now.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Seriously...ALL the good special characters gone? (Except Rakarth, and even he got hit with the nerf bat?)

Not sure about the nerf bad, but he's certainly been gulping down whitewash to make himself blander.

Regeneration is a key part of his fluff... so let's remove Meld the Flesh and replace it with bland, flavourless IWND.

Tell you what GW, while we're removing rules, how about replacing 'ATSKNF' with 'Fearless'?

I always likes the speciel characters, not really because of who they were but they allowed for more interesting and unique rules/abilities.
The normal HQs always lacked that flare for me. Usually only 1 or 2 weapons worth taking and the "must take survival buff" with no special abilities at all to choose from.

This seems to be getting better with the artifact items and warlord traits. But with the latest codex that dream has been smashed.
No Reaver jetbike or Hellion skyboard (now that Sathonyx is gone), no ap2 weapon for your Archon and only the webway portal and helm of spiteis is useful for supporting your army.

Not only DE has this problem and for me its a big deal when I can't make a HQ that feels unique and personal.
Same problem plagues most units since they have no or only 1 upgrade worth wasting points on, but its with the HQ I have the biggest issue.

 salix_fatuus wrote:
I always likes the speciel characters, not really because of who they were but they allowed for more interesting and unique rules/abilities.

I always disliked them for the same reason - GW has an unfortunate tendency to give all the best rules, weapons and wargear to SCs.

I'd much rather standard characters had a wider range of wargear and such, and that SCs existed only as specific builds for standard HQs.

 vipoid wrote:

 salix_fatuus wrote:
I always likes the speciel characters, not really because of who they were but they allowed for more interesting and unique rules/abilities.

I always disliked them for the same reason - GW has an unfortunate tendency to give all the best rules, weapons and wargear to SCs.

I'd much rather standard characters had a wider range of wargear and such, and that SCs existed only as specific builds for standard HQs.

That result is rather why SC's are 99% of the time why they are never used in fantasy, why take something you can already build better?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
That result is rather why SC's are 99% of the time why they are never used in fantasy, why take something you can already build better?

Good.

I'd much rather see SCs used for their flavour, as opposed to having them used because they're miles better than any of the standard choices.

 vipoid wrote:

 salix_fatuus wrote:
I always likes the speciel characters, not really because of who they were but they allowed for more interesting and unique rules/abilities.

I always disliked them for the same reason - GW has an unfortunate tendency to give all the best rules, weapons and wargear to SCs.

I'd much rather standard characters had a wider range of wargear and such, and that SCs existed only as specific builds for standard HQs.

Exactly, if the standard had a wider range of wargear and such that would be awesome and for me it seemed like they were going that way for some time.

I liked them since they were the only way to get it but would prefer the standard to have it, so should correct that it was a kind of love/hate relationship.

 vipoid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
That result is rather why SC's are 99% of the time why they are never used in fantasy, why take something you can already build better?

Good.

I'd much rather see SCs used for their flavour, as opposed to having them used because they're miles better than any of the standard choices.

Not me, I enjoy actually having SC's that are actually "Special" rather then "Hey, please gimp yourself by using this character we haven't balanced well"

 ClockworkZion wrote:
@Jimsolo: all special characters without models are being pulled from codexes as they're being updated regardless of how good or bad they are.

Doesn't it make more sense to make models for the characters you already HAVE rules for, rather than axing them and creating whole new models?

I MIGHT have even been okay if they'd replaced them with other characters. Seems pretty barren now.

Part of the cost of the quick release method that is running these days.

I'll expect that once everyone are up to at least 6th edition the pace will slow down, and further releases will be more focused on making slight tuning and adding on characters and such

BoomWolf nailed it. I mean we're seeing some releases right now who aren't even getting any new things (Grey Knights and now rumors of Necrons). I believe we'll see more new stuff once the release schedule has a chance to breathe again (maybe after everything is 7th'd up).

Or, due to their sinking profit margin, GW really is going to go down the route of merely focusing on publications than new models and will start updating 6th ed codexes from next year onward.

Have fun re-buying hardcover 30 quid books, DA and CSM players.

I do think they're experimenting with things to try and turn things around before they get really bad, but I don't think solely updating books with no models is it Sir Arun.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Or, due to their sinking profit margin, GW really is going to go down the route of merely focusing on publications than new models and will start updating 6th ed codexes from next year onward.

Have fun re-buying hardcover 30 quid books, DA and CSM players.

And they wonder why their profits are declining...

You guys are implying GW knows what its doing and isnt a sinking ship that doggedly refuses to do market research (which they themselved admitted in their last annual report)

What I've found to be somewhat funny is that the book seems to have moved back to its 5th edition lists without really trying.

Wyches never were tank busters when it first game out. It was only the change to 6th and assault changes that people said. Well damn, these guys can get haywire and hit on 3s with little to no overwatch. Sold.

Before that, they were what they are now. A somewhat poor to adequate assault unit that was really only useful for mopping up stragglers than taking on fully healthy squads.

Warriors in raiders/venoms spreading around the poison is the same it has always been. Large Grot squads coming out of WWP is nothing new. The things that got better like scourges, mandrakes just add more tools to the tool box and choices.

Yes, I too am saddened by the loss of all the SC and I think it really is a dick move by GW, and several of the other nerfs just dont make sense since I myself feel like they had nothing super over powered in the first place that needed it. Did Ravagers really need to loose some shooting power? Did Dark Lances really need to go up in cost? Probably not, but GW hasn't really been on the giving side in these last few codexs.

 Sir Arun wrote:
You guys are implying GW knows what its doing and isnt a sinking ship that doggedly refuses to do market research (which they themselved admitted in their last annual report)

They may do no proactive research, but they do react to sales numbers. I'm betting they track them either quarterly and react based on if the quarter was better than the previous one or not.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
You guys are implying GW knows what its doing and isnt a sinking ship that doggedly refuses to do market research (which they themselved admitted in their last annual report)

They may do no proactive research, but they do react to sales numbers. I'm betting they track them either quarterly and react based on if the quarter was better than the previous one or not.

Yes, but they might be daft enough to follow the downward spiral of reacting to reduced sales number by limiting their spending on creating new units, which in turns leads to an even greater drop in sales, which in turn limits their spending on ambitious redesigns even more etc.

 Sir Arun wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
You guys are implying GW knows what its doing and isnt a sinking ship that doggedly refuses to do market research (which they themselved admitted in their last annual report)

They may do no proactive research, but they do react to sales numbers. I'm betting they track them either quarterly and react based on if the quarter was better than the previous one or not.

Yes, but they might be daft enough to follow the downward spiral of reacting to reduced sales number by limiting their spending on creating new units, which in turns leads to an even greater drop in sales, which in turn limits their spending on ambitious redesigns even more etc.

They know letting codexes sit for long periods of time isn't working, and for the ones who need immediate fixing they're doing just that. For others they're (Orks and Wolves for instance) they're giving them new models too. By not giving every single codex new models they can put out stuff when it's ready instead of putting it on a burner for an indeterminate amount of time.

They know the old formula of taking forever and a year to update things doesn't work, so they're trying new things. I'm not saying everything they're trying is working or is the right way to do it, but I am happy to at least see them doing something to try and turn things around. And honestly I don't think this approach is a permanent one. I have a feeling they're only trying to avoid letting books that need updates and have said updates ready from sitting around until models are ready too.

They know letting codexes sit for long periods of time isn't working, and for the ones who need immediate fixing they're doing just that. For others they're (Orks and Wolves for instance) they're giving them new models too. By not giving every single codex new models they can put out stuff when it's ready instead of putting it on a burner for an indeterminate amount of time.

Uh huh. Sure. Some armies get books. Some armies get models. Some armies lose units, lose models, and their Codex exists in no official, physical manner.

 Psienesis wrote:

They know letting codexes sit for long periods of time isn't working, and for the ones who need immediate fixing they're doing just that. For others they're (Orks and Wolves for instance) they're giving them new models too. By not giving every single codex new models they can put out stuff when it's ready instead of putting it on a burner for an indeterminate amount of time.

Uh huh. Sure. Some armies get books. Some armies get models. Some armies lose units, lose models, and their Codex exists in no official, physical manner.

I haven't seen any armies lose full units or even models (beyond Sisters) this edition. Things that had no models (namely SCs) have largely been pulled, and so far we've had 3 books get models (though DE mostly just plugged old holes) and 2 who didn't get any (Grey Knights, and if rumors hold true, Necrons). All armies have gotten books, just some have gotten model kit releases with the books.

Like I said in my post (which you ignored to dispute that one portion), I don't think this is a long term thing, and I think these books will get more support later. They needed an update and making them wait for one until models were ready wasn't going to cut it. So in the mean time a quick update that gets rules in line, and later they can release model kits with rules (like they've done before with things) that get rolled into a later codex, which may even be in this edition (not to unlike the 3.5 ed books we saw in the past).

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Like I said in my post (which you ignored to dispute that one portion), I don't think this is a long term thing, and I think these books will get more support later. They needed an update and making them wait for one until models were ready wasn't going to cut it. So in the mean time a quick update that gets rules in line, and later they can release model kits with rules (like they've done before with things) that get rolled into a later codex, which may even be in this edition (not to unlike the 3.5 ed books we saw in the past).

It may not be a long-term thing, but GW certainly doesn't do much to inspire confidence that the rapid succession of new books with a shiny new 30% increase-in-price-tag will be abated for something more, let's say, customer-friendly.

The same thing goes for the special characters- there is no indication GW will ever bring them back. It's certainly a high possibility (given their tendency to recycle content), but if they are brought back it's not going to be in the guise of customer concern.

I always liked the positive reviews. There's no point in ranting about something already done. Good job!

Well later they can release models with a dataslate we see the trend all ready. I do not mind if they release a new special character with a cool formation with them on a data slate download. For lets say 15 bucks US, or some type of redeemable code for the new model included with it for the data slate.

I think this method could be...tolerable if they went the route of offering rules for new units on cards, ala Warmachine or something like that. The whole idea of buying an expensive (albeit very nice) miniature and then being expected to pay more than $5 for the rules to utilize said unit is ludicrous.

Anyway, on-topic I think reavers will impress me more than I immediately anticipated. Their caltrops seem like the real reason for their use, and you can take the heat lance from the kit and use it to build some scourges.

lliu wrote:
I always liked the positive reviews. There's no point in ranting about something already done. Good job!

Because a chorus of yes-men isn't helpful? If something's wrong, you don't need to keep silent.