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 OldSkoolGoff wrote:

And just a quick reminder, everyone 'quit' when 8th fantasy came out too.

No need to remind me. I saw tourney's go from 200 people in 7th to 20 in 8th.
The biggest tourney in the state (probably the country, I should check that) has stopped running since 8th because there was no point in their minds.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 OldSkoolGoff wrote:

And just a quick reminder, everyone 'quit' when 8th fantasy came out too.

No need to remind me. I saw tourney's go from 200 people in 7th to 20 in 8th.
The biggest tourney in the state (probably the country, I should check that) has stopped running since 8th because there was no point in their minds.

Yeah, if I recall everyone (okay, not LITERALLY everyone) did quit 8th edition WHFB, hence sales have been horrendous (the game having dropped out of the top 5 on the IVC2...or whatever that survey is called).

I mean, sales for WHFB have never compared to even Space Marines, but the drop-off has been significant enough for GW to be making some serious revamps with the game.

Give me 5th edition, plus 7ths vehicle rules and psychics (without the daemonic bollocks) and we're golden.

The rest just seems like pointless rearranging and bloat. Given how long it takes to set up this game and move a horde army in it, bloat was the last thing we needed.

nkelsch wrote:
In regards to 7th made me quit... I haven't Quit, but I also haven't picked up 7th.

This is what I need if I want to play 7th edition:
1. The core rulebook
2. The new Ork codex
3. Time to learn the new rules for the game
4. Time to inventory 20-40 thousand points of ork models in regards to the new codex.
5. Figure out which units and weapon options I currently don't have and will need for basic builds, like Gorkanauts, HQs with different gear, Buzzsaw MANZ and so on.

So I am looking at 150$ in rules, 300$ in models and ooodles of downtime learning new rules and painting models.

Will I do it? Maybe... Right now I have other games which are fulfilling my hobby and gaming time because a 7 year hiatus for ork rules pretty much left me with a 'completed' army 4 years ago.

Right now the effort is more of a barrier than the money, and the money is a barrier. So I am taking a break and gonna go play with my D&D and board game crew.

That is the harsh reality of letting a codex languish for so long. Even the most die-hard fans simply 'had nothing to build for orks' for so long that I moved on.

For me I was not a fan of 6th , allies , flyers, etc. As a tyranid player I was not happy with the poor quality 5th ed dex - but I'm playing 6th nervously awaiting the 6th ed nid dex. When it comes out another poor product obviously phoned in - even more flavour removed from the dex and so many easy problems not dealt with. And to top it off dataslates released at the same time so not only do I have to pay an absurd price for a poor nid dex if I want to try to make a competitive army I practically need to buy datalsates - an extra money grab. Then not long after 7th ed is released that messes up a few things again.

So the 6th ed nid dex stopped me from playing (had already spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars to try to make nids work with the 5th ed dex without tervigons -hated them) and 7th ed put the nails in the coffin. If I want to play nids I need to buy (I did buy the 6th ed nid dex $60):
- dataslates $86 to get them all
- 7th ed BRB $120
- psychic cards $7
- for models that I may need as so many of my other models are lousy (raveners, trygons, etc) crone $95ea, exocrine $88, T-fex $69
- on top of this because the nid dex is so lousy FW models are needed which means I need the FW rules, malanthrope, possibly dima, barbed hierodule or stone crusher fex.

It means I have to spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars to try to have a decent army (and shelve lots of my models), and since this is GW, this new army could easily be messed up again very soon with 8th edition or a 7th ed nid dex. This type of nonsense has put more then me in a position of not wanting to play/support GW any longer.

Yeah, $100 for the rulebook's put me right off of 7th. I'm treating it as a reason to spend 2-3 years just finishing up my army (hah!) while I wait to see what 8th brings. Cannot justify the cost of the rules every 2 years.

 OldSkoolGoff wrote:

And just a quick reminder, everyone 'quit' when 8th fantasy came out too.

"Everyone" DID quit when 8th edition Fantasy came out. We used to have 40+ people tournaments in 6th / 7th edition. Now? The organizers are happy if they get the 4 people minimum to run a tournament and most months they can't even get that.

PhantomViper wrote:

 OldSkoolGoff wrote:

And just a quick reminder, everyone 'quit' when 8th fantasy came out too.

"Everyone" DID quit when 8th edition Fantasy came out. We used to have 40+ people tournaments in 6th / 7th edition. Now? The organizers are happy if they get the 4 people minimum to run a tournament and most months they can't even get that.

So... not everyone quit?

I'm sorry, but if there's still people playing, no matter how few, not everybody quit.

 -Loki- wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 OldSkoolGoff wrote:

And just a quick reminder, everyone 'quit' when 8th fantasy came out too.

"Everyone" DID quit when 8th edition Fantasy came out. We used to have 40+ people tournaments in 6th / 7th edition. Now? The organizers are happy if they get the 4 people minimum to run a tournament and most months they can't even get that.

So... not everyone quit?

I'm sorry, but if there's still people playing, no matter how few, not everybody quit.

Hence the quotation marks around the word everyone, because when people state that everyone did something very rarely do they literally mean everyone.

 -Loki- wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 OldSkoolGoff wrote:

And just a quick reminder, everyone 'quit' when 8th fantasy came out too.

"Everyone" DID quit when 8th edition Fantasy came out. We used to have 40+ people tournaments in 6th / 7th edition. Now? The organizers are happy if they get the 4 people minimum to run a tournament and most months they can't even get that.

So... not everyone quit?

I'm sorry, but if there's still people playing, no matter how few, not everybody quit.

Yeah, that's my point. When 8th came out every thread was full of people crying about it and threatening to quit. But in my area, you have to FIGHT to get into a fantasy tournament before the window closes because it's so popular.

I guess maybe things are worse in the states, but in Canada, fantasy is still super popular - and I believe in Europe too.

 OldSkoolGoff wrote:
But in my area, you have to FIGHT to get into a fantasy tournament before the window closes because it's so popular.

I don't know if your area is enough to sustain GW, though. In my area the GW shop still gets attention, but then it's the only one in Northern Ireland, and one of two on this here island. There have been a few indy shops too, and I think at least one of those that I've seen is still going. In none of them have I seen more than a token representation of GW on the shelves, and the focus is usually on other games. In three current clubs I've visited, only one has had a big 40K presence, and it was losing a bit of ground to FoW and Malifaux. That was a while ago. I've no idea what effect 7th has had on them, if any.

I guess maybe things are worse in the states, but in Canada, fantasy is still super popular - and I believe in Europe too.

Any numbers?

 OldSkoolGoff wrote:

I guess maybe things are worse in the states, but in Canada, fantasy is still super popular - and I believe in Europe too.

Look at my flag, I'm in Europe, there are currently less than 10% of the number of WHFB players as there used to be during 6th / 7th. WHFB over here is but a shadow of what it once was.

WHFB in practical terms, doesn't exist in my area. I've never seen a game played and when I bought a fantasy figure (for 40k conversion) the shop keeper was surprised.

 OldSkoolGoff wrote:
And just a quick reminder, everyone 'quit' when 8th fantasy came out too.

YMMV. In my aera, if you want to play a game, you'd better play Mordheim or Blood Bowl than WHFB, because it's pretty much dead.

In the US, Warmachines, Hordes, and at least one of the "Star [...] Wing" games,are in the top 5. WHFB isn't. Can't remember if it's Star Wars or Star Trek, seems to change every year, both are probably ahead of WHFB anyway.

Lagging behind both Warmachine and Hordes means that the growth of your game is at least twice smaller than the WarmaHordes system. But yeah, sure, WHFB's just fine.

 MWHistorian wrote:
WHFB in practical terms, doesn't exist in my area. I've never seen a game played and when I bought a fantasy figure (for 40k conversion) the shop keeper was surprised.

I actually have a small FLGS nearby with WHFB going on, and that store actually has like no 40k and only 3 people who play Warmachine (it's a small store, but still). Honestly I'd like to play Fantasy as I always liked it, but not with those prices; I thought 40k was but but jeez WHFB really takes the mickey with how they rip you off. I'll play Kings of War instead when I get the time to look into it.

I guess it depends on the area you live in the staes with WHFB. My older brother lives in Cleavland, Ohio and gets a game in every week. But in my area your lucky to get a game of WHFB in once a year. 40k in my area has also taken a back seat to warmachine and xwing. But I live in a small population area outside the city of youngstown, Ohio and new castle, PA. A shop in pittsburgh that ran 40k tournaments once a month is now going to host tournaments once every three months. During 6th edition and 5th edition of 40k, the tournaments I attended at the shop in Pittsburgh had over 40 people entered in the tournaments. Now like I said I live 45 minutes from the shop in Pittsburgh so I really don't know what's going on there, I just know the tournament are not going well.

The irony is that I keep thinking to play 40k, but the state of the rules and the price to get a good army (and that's with some stuff left over!) just turns me off completely because while I don't like a lot of stuff about it, Warmachine just feels like such a better game. I know I could get games, I know there's a healthy community at the largest game store in my area, just the game doesn't seem like it's worth considering anymore. I still like the fluff and the lore (for the most part) but everything is a totally different direction to what I want out of a game.

It's almost like i want to play 40k but GW's nonsense is making me not want to bother because it's an uphill struggle to get back into it.

SBG wrote:
Cannot justify the cost of the rules every 2 years.

I know a lot of people- even people who were happy to see the end of 6th- get worried that GW was going to start up a model of bringing out a new edition every two years (instead of four). No one wants a new edition every two years. Especially not with the core rulebooks getting so expensive, and the necessary additions you need these days.


However, it seems that this was not a financial win for Games Workshop. Profits and sales are down by quite a bit (in the statement to investors, Tom Kirby made absolutely no mention of the new edition of 40k- he didn't want to let them know that their company performed poorly in a year when their flagship product was released).

So... if they're looking at the numbers, they might have noticed that it wasn't a good idea. But then again, you never know what GW will learn at the end of the day.

 odinsgrandson wrote:

SBG wrote:
Cannot justify the cost of the rules every 2 years.

I know a lot of people- even people who were happy to see the end of 6th- get worried that GW was going to start up a model of bringing out a new edition every two years (instead of four). No one wants a new edition every two years. Especially not with the core rulebooks getting so expensive, and the necessary additions you need these days.


However, it seems that this was not a financial win for Games Workshop. Profits and sales are down by quite a bit (in the statement to investors, Tom Kirby made absolutely no mention of the new edition of 40k- he didn't want to let them know that their company performed poorly in a year when their flagship product was released).

So... if they're looking at the numbers, they might have noticed that it wasn't a good idea. But then again, you never know what GW will learn at the end of the day.

Heck, I don't know what others think, but for me every 4 years is too soon.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 odinsgrandson wrote:

SBG wrote:
Cannot justify the cost of the rules every 2 years.

I know a lot of people- even people who were happy to see the end of 6th- get worried that GW was going to start up a model of bringing out a new edition every two years (instead of four). No one wants a new edition every two years. Especially not with the core rulebooks getting so expensive, and the necessary additions you need these days.


However, it seems that this was not a financial win for Games Workshop. Profits and sales are down by quite a bit (in the statement to investors, Tom Kirby made absolutely no mention of the new edition of 40k- he didn't want to let them know that their company performed poorly in a year when their flagship product was released).

So... if they're looking at the numbers, they might have noticed that it wasn't a good idea. But then again, you never know what GW will learn at the end of the day.

Heck, I don't know what others think, but for me every 4 years is too soon.

I think part of the issue is that they aren't really changing the rules. They change enough to invalidate some armies (whether that's deliberate or not is up to debate) and change the meta so assault is good and shooting sucks or vice versa or add more random crap, and pass it off as a new edition when in the old days it would have been a Chapter Approved article in White Dwarf (like the I think pre-4th edition assault rules)

And this is what is so sad for many 40K players. Many of us wanted to play 40K. We enjoy the universe/fluff and/or models, but GW has made the rules so poorly, increased prices so insanely, forced the purchase of many more rules/models to keep playing your army, failed to fix easy issues (no serious errata) and their obvious lack of respect towards customers is putting them in a downward spiral.

It is sad because the game has so much potential and with effort in the rules for internal and external balance and dropping prices/stop the price gouging GW would be much more solid IMO - then maybe I would recommend the game but I will warn people away today.

GW does seem to want to go down and their practices encourage their demise.

When Pierre go down he go down in flames!

 OldSkoolGoff wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 OldSkoolGoff wrote:

And just a quick reminder, everyone 'quit' when 8th fantasy came out too.

"Everyone" DID quit when 8th edition Fantasy came out. We used to have 40+ people tournaments in 6th / 7th edition. Now? The organizers are happy if they get the 4 people minimum to run a tournament and most months they can't even get that.

So... not everyone quit?

I'm sorry, but if there's still people playing, no matter how few, not everybody quit.

Yeah, that's my point. When 8th came out every thread was full of people crying about it and threatening to quit. But in my area, you have to FIGHT to get into a fantasy tournament before the window closes because it's so popular.

I guess maybe things are worse in the states, but in Canada, fantasy is still super popular - and I believe in Europe too.

I hate to tell you this, but being ecstatic that 'only' 75% to 90% have quit does not paint a rosy picture.

'Everyone' was being used in a hyperbolic fashion, yes, but it remains fact - documentable fact - that WHFB has haemorrhaged a lot of players in much of the world.

Locally, Warhammer 8th edition was the nicest thing that GW could have done for Kings of War.

People are still using their old GW miniatures, but are no longer playing a GW game with them - they are playing Kings of War, and soon might be playing Warthrone as well.

Most of the new miniatures being bought are also not GW - I am seeing Avatars of War, Reaper Miniatures, Mantic, Gamezone, and a bunch of Perry (including my own WotR from Perry, used for Kingdoms of Men)... but not a lot of new GW miniatures.

And this is in spite of some people liking many of those new GW miniatures.

Sometimes it is the price that puts people off, but a surprising number of folks just do not want their money going to GW anymore - and they are willing to spend more for that privilege. (There is a massive Dark Elf... I mean Twilight Kin... army in the works that uses no GW minis at all, but that has miniatures from Reaper, Avatars of War, Gamezone, and Mantic.... Most of the minis cost more than their GW counterparts, not less.)

I am pretty sure that you thought that you were making a telling strike with your 'Everyone' comment- but given that Warhammer Fantasy is losing so many players... I do not think that the strike hit true.

The Auld Grump

 Ventus wrote:
And this is what is so sad for many 40K players. Many of us wanted to play 40K. We enjoy the universe/fluff and/or models, but GW has made the rules so poorly, increased prices so insanely, forced the purchase of many more rules/models to keep playing your army, fail to fix easy issues (no serious errata) and their obvious lack of respect towards customers is putting them in a spiral downward.

It is sad because the game has so much potential and with effort in the rules for internal and external balance and dropping prices/stop the price gouging GW would be more solid IMO - then maybe I would recommend the game but I will warn people away.

GW does seem to want to go down and their practices seem to encourage their demise.

When Pierre go down he go down in flames!

Exactly. Story time!

I know for a fact the 40k-centric FLGS is starting a slow grow league this weekend. I thought about joining because I have had a Tau Megaforce since 2006/2007. I thought of a fluffy but effective list (I'd need to buy another Devilfish). I even put some of it together. Don't ask how I have the rulebook and codex. Then I started to look at some things I would want to add to expand (the league is going to 2000 points over 12 weeks). The price started to rise exponentially, and I'd still have no idea if I even like the game anymore since I last played circa 2002. On top of that, I don't really know the people at the store and the few times I've gone to observe they weren't very friendly and came off as being drunk on the GW kool-aid. On top of that 40k night is Thursday night and runs late, and I'm tired from work and work weekdays.

On the other hand, a small game shop has Warmachine that's closer and has grown exponentially, almost doubled in players since I started frequenting there. They're all friendly, they all have fun, and while yes I have to spend a nice chunk of money on units, it's not nearly as much as for 40k and I feel like I'm getting more value for my money. They want to grow the community. I even applied to be a Press Ganger for Privateer Press to help them out.

Couple that with better rules, better support and a better game, and I don't see a reason other than nostalgia to play 40k again even though I consider it sometimes. The Warmachine community seems to have a lot more fun and be more enjoyable.

WayneTheGame wrote:


On the other hand, a small game shop has Warmachine that's closer and has grown exponentially, almost doubled in players since I started frequenting there. They're all friendly, they all have fun, and while yes I have to spend a nice chunk of money on units, it's not nearly as much as for 40k and I feel like I'm getting more value for my money.

Couple that with better rules, better support and a better game, and I don't see a reason other than nostalgia to play 40k again even though I consider it sometimes. The Warmachine community seems to have a lot more fun and be more enjoyable.

That is it exactly. If I want to buy a model for 40K - do I like the model and does it have all the necessary wargear/biomorphs (which doesn't always happen)? I have to look at it as what is the value for the high cost because I also expect to be able to use it and have the model have decent rules - not for only 2 years or 6 months. I have many many wargames and the ones that were well done are still good games today, some from over 30 years ago. When I look at 40K I have to spend far more money than any other tabletop game and then worry that the unit's rules will be messed up with the next dex and/or next BRB edition with little expectation that GW will put serious effort into errata to try to ensure that all my models that I spent so much money on will still be usable.

GW purchases are a sink hole.

We all understand that with a living game changes will occur with a new edition but with serious effort the rules can still be good and dexes properly updated - not perfect but they should be pretty darn good for the high cost. By GW s practices they don't deserve to survive as a company.

I think what bugs me the most about the changes is they seem done on purpose so you can't keep what you have. That's complete bullgak no matter what, and stinks of ripping people off deliberately. A good company tries to have as little shakeup as possible between editions so people can use what they've already got, but not GW who seems to go with the approach of "If we don't invalidate units or do a 180 on the meta, people might not buy more things".

 Ventus wrote:
And this is what is so sad for many 40K players. Many of us wanted to play 40K. We enjoy the universe/fluff and/or models, but GW has made the rules so poorly, increased prices so insanely, forced the purchase of many more rules/models to keep playing your army, failed to fix easy issues (no serious errata) and their obvious lack of respect towards customers is putting them in a downward spiral.

I agree. Even though I haven't bought a new GW product in years, this year I reread the Ravenor and Eisenhorn novels, bought some more 90's era white dwarfs and picked up some more eldar stuff. Despite the changes, I still like the 40k setting and would have liked to be able to play it. But I've been priced out and I don't see anything coming down the pike that would change that.

It's not just myself either. All but 1 or two of our club regulars and semi-regulars (about 10 of us) were 40k players at one time and a few were until recently. Most drifted away more than 5 years ago but even the player who was the most gung-ho and had the most disposable income to spend on 40k has decided to not buy 7th edition, leaving us with only 1 semi-reglar attender who plays anymore. All these folks are still gamers, they just no longer play 40k.

Backfire wrote:
I really don't get this "7th edition makes me quit" -thing which some people have going on. 7th edition is basically 6th edition with changed Psychic rules. Surely changing Psychic powers (arguably for the better) is not going to make anyone quit? I mean I understand if people had already quit because of 6th edition since that had lot more changes, or they quit because they don't like the codecies, or prices.

Wargaming forums just have more kneejerking whiners than average.

 RunicFIN wrote:

Backfire wrote:
I really don't get this "7th edition makes me quit" -thing which some people have going on. 7th edition is basically 6th edition with changed Psychic rules. Surely changing Psychic powers (arguably for the better) is not going to make anyone quit? I mean I understand if people had already quit because of 6th edition since that had lot more changes, or they quit because they don't like the codecies, or prices.

40K forums just have more kneejerking whiners than average.

Fixed that for you. This isn't a wargaming problem, it's a wholly GW/40k problem. Other games don't have this problem.

Haha, same kind of whining happens on WARMACHINE/HORDES forums all the time. Here´s screenshots included in a video of one debacle from a while ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6nUC8hel8Q

Sorry to burst your bubble, but people whine about everything and for some reason wargaming communities are especially prevalent when it comes to whining, kneejerking, rising to the barricades and general crying out. Just the way it is, whether you accept it or not that is still the case and nothing you say will change that. You can look at any miniaturegaming forum ( national or international ) and the sub-forum of any game, and there will be kneejerking, whining, threatening not to buy, selling miniatures ( as included in that video. )

Sorry, but you "fixed" fiction. Found these threads in 2 minutes from PP forums.:

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?211966-Current-State-of-the-Community

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?212051-So-It-has-been-a-few-months-since-the-game-was-completely-ruined

And if you´re still rejecting reality and replacing it with your own, go browse more forums and you´ll see that whining and kneejerking happens everywhere, regarding any game, end of story.

Are you actually reading those threads, or just trolling for links? Because I've read both threads and it's nowhere near the level of vehemence that you see towards GW. The second thread is sarcasm by the way because the change in question (cannot cast spells on a unit that has models out of formation) had a lot of teeth gnashing as being a major nerf since it stopped formation shenanigans (it was a good change BTW as people were abusing it).

So try again. It's not "other games don't have people who complain" it's that only GW/40k has this divide between players and the level of anger at a company which, honestly, is pretty pathetic as far as companies go.

WayneTheGame wrote:
Are you actually reading those threads, or just trolling for links? Because I've read both threads and it's nowhere near the level of vehemence that you see towards GW. The second is sarcasm by the way because the change in question (cannot cast spells on a unit that has models out of formation) had a lot of teeth gnashing as being a major nerf since it stopped formation shenanigans (it was a good change BTW as people were abusing it)

Nice attempt at a save, did you look at the video? The screenshots in that video alone prove you´re wrong. And I did say, go browse more. If you want, I can link you 10 more whiny threads from an alternative games forum. But we both already know that you know it happens, everywhere, and it won´t take me more than 15 minutes to find those threads. C´mon, get real.

I said kneejerking and whining happens everywhere, and it does. You said "This isn't a wargaming problem, it's a wholly GW/40k problem. Other games don't have this problem." - and you´re wrong. Just admit it already, geez.

It happens, everywhere, period. I like how you edited your post after obviously reading mine. You counterargumented solely on my argument, which is that other forums also have kneejerking whiners - I proved you wrong - and now you claim you are talking about a different thing ( hate for a company etc, which is not the same as whiners on a forum. ) Why even counterargument on my statement, when you knew it was true and indirectly already admitted it is?

But why do I even ask when I already know the answer; just because you felt the need to resist for whatever reason while knowing what I say is true to beginwith.