Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 RunicFIN wrote:
Haha, same kind of whining happens on WARMACHINE/HORDES forums all the time. Here´s screenshots included in a video of one debacle from a while ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6nUC8hel8Q

Sorry to burst your bubble, but people whine about everything and for some reason wargaming communities are especially prevalent when it comes to whining, kneejerking, rising to the barricades and general crying out. Just the way it is, whether you accept it or not that is still the case and nothing you say will change that. You can look at any miniaturegaming forum ( national or international ) and the sub-forum of any game, and there will be kneejerking, whining, threatening not to buy, selling miniatures ( as included in that video. )

Sorry, but you "fixed" fiction. Found these threads in 2 minutes from PP forums.:

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?211966-Current-State-of-the-Community

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?212051-So-It-has-been-a-few-months-since-the-game-was-completely-ruined

And if you´re still rejecting reality and replacing it with your own, go browse more forums and you´ll see that whining and kneejerking happens everywhere, regarding any game, end of story.

You clearly didn't actually read these threads. They're quite civil and no where near the anger, resentment and frustration from 40k forums. In fact, when they bring up a bad example they're usually "This is almost 40k level of bad." I'd use these same posts as examples of how better it is in warmachine.
And Oh. My. Word. That video was a joke. You can't use an inside joke as evidence of how bad PP community is.

And again, dismissing all criticism as whining is counter productive.

 McNinja wrote:

And then I saw a thread where someone finally began to understand that GW was a terrible company.

Just post in that one then...

 prplehippo wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
And then I saw a thread where someone finally began to understand that GW was a terrible company

GW isn't a "bad company". It's just a company like any other, it's run the way management sees fit to run it.

Some folks may disagree with you there.

As a designated 30(b)6 representative of the company, Alan Merrett testified under oath that he understood that copyright ownership does not extend to an idea. Despite this sworn testimony, Mr. Merrett, in his capacity as a 30(b)6 deponent, said of Games Workshop's infringement claim as to the Chapterhouse Studios Mycetic Spore Pod model, "This thing is a copy of our idea, that's the best I can come up with."

Games Workshop asserted that claim against Chapterhouse Studios, among literally hundreds of others (some others of which Mr. Merrett either described as being based solely on an idea or failed to demonstrate evidence of anything other than an idea) for more than three years of intensely costly and time consuming litigation that is still ongoing. In fact, Games Workshop is arguing to the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals that the Court should overturn the jury verdict finding that the Mycetic Spore Pod did not infringe a Games Workshop copyright.

This despite the fact that the best evidence Mr. Merrett could come up with with respect to Mycetic Spore Pod product was that it is a "copy of our idea," and that you "can't really see" the evidence of infringement he brought to trial unless you scrunch up your face and use your imagination!

When, why, and how should one draw a line between incompetence and intent? When, why, and how has it ever been acceptable in any democracy to bring imaginary evidence into a court of law?

And don't forget that Games Workshop attempted to voluntarily withdraw more than 40 different copyright claims, which, according to Mr. Merrett's testimony, Games Workshop seemed to feel were weaker than the Mycetic Spore Pod claim.

 RunicFIN wrote:
Haha, same kind of whining happens on WARMACHINE/HORDES forums all the time. Here´s screenshots included in a video of one debacle from a while ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6nUC8hel8Q

Sorry to burst your bubble, but people whine about everything and for some reason wargaming communities are especially prevalent when it comes to whining, kneejerking, rising to the barricades and general crying out. Just the way it is, whether you accept it or not that is still the case and nothing you say will change that. You can look at any miniaturegaming forum ( national or international ) and the sub-forum of any game, and there will be kneejerking, whining, threatening not to buy, selling miniatures ( as included in that video. )

Sorry, but you "fixed" fiction. Found these threads in 2 minutes from PP forums.:

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?211966-Current-State-of-the-Community

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?212051-So-It-has-been-a-few-months-since-the-game-was-completely-ruined

And if you´re still rejecting reality and replacing it with your own, go browse more forums and you´ll see that whining and kneejerking happens everywhere, regarding any game, end of story.

So you've a found a couple of examples that back up your point (I refuse to count the second thread as you obviously have no clue what humour is. Even the YT video steers into that category too.). Good for you. Now go find the comparable Brobdingnagian monstrosities of those equivalent threads regarding 40k.

You'll have a smorgasbord of links in a few seconds. So, after doing just that which game then has the more toxic community that is fostered by the company that created it?

I don't think most people are truly angry about GW, rather despondent or myopic.

At this point, I can't get angry about the company and product; it's been too bad for too long, and the continued lack of concern from GW, the "All ahead full and damn the torpedos" mentality just makes the game worse and worse over time, so I just can't be enthusiastic anymore.

In my local club, there are two kinds of people; those who want to play a game, and those who want to play 40k. The difference comes from acceptance or refusal to accept what 40k has become; for those interested in their "tabletop fix," and don't mind combining multiple codexes, detachment shenanigans, dataslates, formations and so on, they still enjoy the game somewhat. They're not super pleased, and consider the current ruleset inferior to what came before, as recently as 6th, but they'll keep playing as they can keep winning and utilize large collections to cope with changes and GW's rules insanity, and don't have to deal with extremely high prices; they don't have to buy much or anything.

The other players, more invested in 40k as a setting as well as a tabletop game, who enjoy themed armies, apocalypse and scenarios over tournaments and direct competitions, they're the bunch just about finished with 40k. Despite all the "Forge the Narrative" bs, the game actively punishes you for building a themed army most of the time, it punishes you for taking anything less than the optimal, because the balance gulf is so enormous within and beyond individual codexes. Every codex keeps stripping options, and the "meta" requires you to take certain things or die against many armies, even other non-optimal themed ones that getting an enjoyable game takes so much more work than just agreeing not to be dicks to each other beforehand.

As I am part of the latter, we only play because we enjoy the social aspect of the game; I've shelved my Death Korps, sold a full Steel Legion army, shelved my first marine army and only persevere with my Minotaurs as the Marine codex is one of the only that can be both fluffy and perform alright, but I still get stomped most of the time, either from psykers, fliers, 7 monstrous creatures, daemons, eldar, tau, guard gunlines, and so rarely do I feel like I've lost because of how I've played, but because of how absolutely fething terrible the rules and powercreep is. The inability for our group to come to a consensus on how we want to play the game is part of the problem, but the very fact that we can't build the army we want and have any chance whatsoever of having a balanced game is a much bigger part of the problem. Is it fair to ask the competitive players to not build competitive lists; it's how they want to have fun (and by rights, they're having more fun than us), and is it any more fair to ask fluffy players to buy a bunch of new stuff they may not want to be competitive, or even to play amongst themselves?

Back in 5th, and for a good chunk of 6th, this wasn't even a discussion. Person A, B, and C ran competitive lists, while D through K ran themed lists, but even when the handful of competitive players played the themed guys, the game was not a foregone conclusion; a challenge for the themed player to win, but nothing like how it is now. That, more than anything else, is the root of the problem with 40k for me; it's become so broad, unbalanced, exploitable and imprecise that it's almost impossible to have a fun game without a lot of planning, preparation and deep knowledge of your opponent and how they will play or what army they'll bring.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
I don't think most people are truly angry about GW, rather despondent or myopic.

I agree with your sentiment, but I think you might be misusing "myopic".

Despite what folks might post on dakka, I have a feeling it's not so much anger and outrage as disappointment leading to ambivalence. I think most of us leave 40k with a "meh" and a sigh rather than with some sort of outburst. GW just wears us down until we don't care anymore.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
The other players, more invested in 40k as a setting as well as a tabletop game, who enjoy themed armies, apocalypse and scenarios over tournaments and direct competitions, they're the bunch just about finished with 40k. Despite all the "Forge the Narrative" bs, the game actively punishes you for building a themed army most of the time, it punishes you for taking anything less than the optimal, because the balance gulf is so enormous within and beyond individual codexes. Every codex keeps stripping options, and the "meta" requires you to take certain things or die against many armies, even other non-optimal themed ones that getting an enjoyable game takes so much more work than just agreeing not to be dicks to each other beforehand.

This is the funniest thing for me. GW claims it's not a competitive game and that you should have narrative games and they seem to encourage fluffy armies, but the power gulf is so great that many themed/fluffy armies are total garbage on the table, while others are amazing not even getting into all of the allies, supplements, dataslates and formations out there.

 MWHistorian wrote:
That video was a joke. You can't use an inside joke as evidence of how bad PP community is.

And again, dismissing all criticism as whining is counter productive.

I´ve played Warmachine and Hordes since 2008, and been a part of the online community eversince. I created that video. Pretty sure I know what it is. I can use screenshots included in a video as evidence just fine, they are screenshots.
It demonstrates and makes fun of one of the biggest whining + kneejerk debacles in PP forums history. You are almost 100% anti-GW, as your post history earlier showed. Please don´t fabricate your biased, angry ( you described yourself angry in that other thread, not my words ) opinions as criticism.

Are you really trying to argue this doesn´t happen too? What next, I state the word "Warmachine" starts with a "w" and you have to hurry in to disagree and resist? Laughable...

In any case:

Whining and kneejerking happens on nigh every wargaming forum, national and international and regarding any miniature game at any given time. Have fun accepting this fact or alternatively living in your own fictional realities, there are only these two options really. But god do I love it when people have some juvenile need to resist and disagree about things that are so obviously true.

 RunicFIN wrote:
I created that video.

That right there immediately dismisses that as any sort of real evidence.

The second thread you linked, the consensus in the first dozen or so posts seems to be that OP is right, there is nothing to worry about.

Yeah sure, I made a video about a forum debacle that never happened because that makes sense. Go use the search function on PP's forums with the sentences in the posts and the usernames and you'll find them.

You guys argue that whining and kneejerking doesnt take place regarding other games and forums. You argue screenshots being fake ( because framing whole online communities, which contents you can openly check at any time happens everyday ) and you even bicker threads not showing the required parameters set by you. Comedy at its best.

You basically argue about anything and everything at any given time and make up something new when served. Anyway, whining and kneejerking happens on any games forum, my screenshots are real and verifiable by anyone. Enjoy these facts, wont be reading this sad thread further ( by saying ths I already expect someones juvenile gene to get a hold of them and make them write something baity and tasty to get me to respond, because mentally 5 year olds. )

 RunicFIN wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
That video was a joke. You can't use an inside joke as evidence of how bad PP community is.

And again, dismissing all criticism as whining is counter productive.

I´ve played Warmachine and Hordes since 2008, and been a part of the online community eversince. I created that video. Pretty sure I know what it is. I can use screenshots included in a video as evidence just fine, they are screenshots.

If you actually played the game then you'd know that there's nowhere near the level of complaining you see re: GW and 40k. Not even close. Stating that there are some complainers is something everyone acknowledges, the point that you keep ignoring (deliberately?) is that it's nowhere close to the complaints about 40k, and PP at least listens to what people are saying (or at the very least acknowledges them), they didn't shut down their forums and proudly claim that they don't need market research because people will buy their figures because they are PP figures.

You don't see the same type of complaining anywhere else but 40k, because GW has created a divide between players by giving one set the finger (i.e. competitive gamers) and telling them that the game isn't meant for them, but writing rules so poor that the other side (i.e. casual/fluffy gamers) can build worthless armies doing exactly the kind of things that they are wont to do (e.g. pick units that look/sound cool or that they like the fluff for). And, on top of that GW proudly claims that actually listening to customers is stupid and "otiose" and that there's no need for it while at the same time trying to pretend that their game is some niche market limited edition bullgak that is for collectors.

The argument here isn't "Other games don't have complaining" it's "Other games don't have complaints as bad as 40k".

That video wasn't a joke? That makes it even sadder.
You can't quote yourself and claim it as evidence.
The level of community divide that exists in 40k simply doesn't exist in WMH. Are there disagreements? Of course. Whenever you put two people in a room there'll be three opinions.
And yes, I do have valid criticisms of GW.
And when have I ever said I was angry? I think you may have taken something out of context.
I have been angry in the past like every other human being, but I am not currently angry about anything. My criticisms of GW come from someone who once loved the game and want to see it improved. I'll probably never go back, but that has more to do with money and time. (I need smaller games that don't take so long.)

There is some anger from some of us, and certainly disappointment since 40K has such potential but remains a crappy game. Anger can come from spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars to buy nice looking models to add to your army only to have their rules or new rules make them useless. and then on top of that watching GW seem to get worse and worse in their care for the product and their customers.

And that is disappointing since many of us want 40K to be a good game and believe it could be a good game - in many simple ways superior to the rubbish that GW puts out now (and the poor execution of ideas that may be fine in certain ways whether we all agree with it or not (for example adding flyers to 40K)).

So I'm more disappointed than angry at what might have been (and should have been IMO)

 MWHistorian wrote:
That video wasn't a joke? That makes it even sadder.
You can't quote yourself and claim it as evidence.
The level of community divide that exists in 40k simply doesn't exist in WMH. Are there disagreements? Of course. Whenever you put two people in a room there'll be three opinions.
And yes, I do have valid criticisms of GW.
And when have I ever said I was angry? I think you may have taken something out of context.
I have been angry in the past like every other human being, but I am not currently angry about anything. My criticisms of GW come from someone who once loved the game and want to see it improved. I'll probably never go back, but that has more to do with money and time. (I need smaller games that don't take so long.)

Think of it this way - he has given everybody's Ignore lists a chance to grow by one....

There is a term in science, investigation, and finance for people that create their own evidence when they cannot find legitimate evidence - and that term is 'Fraud'.

RunicFIN is now a self admitted fraud, so why deal with him?

Though there is a certain loverly irony in the fact that his admiied fraud so nicely undercuts the point that he was trying to make.

The Auld Grump

So.... for you to be wrong there should be literally zero complaints about other games? Yes or no.

Because i think what the others are trying to say is that there are no complaints, period. What they're trying to say is that the level of complaints and animosity with GW is not the same as with other companies and games. If I remember correctly no one said that there is no whining in other forums.

waynethegame wrote:So try again. It's not "other games don't have people who complain" it's that only GW/40k has this divide between players and the level of anger at a company which, honestly, is pretty pathetic as far as companies go.

Then, you produced evidence that... people complain, I guess? Like people complaining about something is a foreign concept to everyone.

And you're the one calling other people thick. Huh.

 heartserenade wrote:
Okay, so you proved that whining happens in other forums. Yay?

Really... Stop feeding the troll, there is nothing useful to be gained in this "discussion" because he isn't interested in discussing anything, he is just trolling. He did the exact same thing in the #i'mpartofreason thread.

WayneTheGame wrote:
If you actually played the game

Are you now claiming I also made up that I play Warmachine/Hordes?

PhantomViper wrote:
Okay, so you proved that whining happens in other forums. Yay?

Yeah, and what makes this whole thing ridicilous is that that is the only thing I claimed, and people had to start arguing about that, and making points that aren´t related to what I originally said. Something everyone knows is true. Ridicilous isn´t it?

 heartserenade wrote:


Really... Stop feeding the troll, there is nothing useful to be gained in this "discussion" because he isn't interested in discussing anything, he is just trolling.

But, I ain´t. You guys are just trying to dismiss me as a troll now, after I proved you wrong. Quite the losers thing to do I´m afraid.

What, you're celebrating the fact that you proved that people whine? As if that's a news to everyone! HUZZAH. You get a cookie. I think you're the very epitome of intelligence and you must have a really awesome body because you win at everything. RUN FOR PRESIDENT.

 heartserenade wrote:
What, you're celebrating the fact that you proved that people whine? As if that's a news to everyone! HUZZAH. You get a cookie. I think you're the very epitome of intelligence and you must have a really awesome body because you win at everything. RUN FOR PRESIDENT.

 RunicFIN wrote:

what makes this whole thing ridicilous is that that is the only thing I claimed, and people had to start arguing about that, and making points that aren´t related to what I originally said. Something everyone knows is true. Ridicilous isn´t it?

So I ask again, if I claim:

"people whine and kneejerk on other forums aswell just the same"

why do you respond with:

"they whine and kneejerk more relating to GW"

instead of just saying: That is true RunicFIN

-in the first place?

 RunicFIN wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:
Whining and kneejerking happens on other forums ( which is what I claimed, if you´re claiming something different I gotta ask why counterargument on a different subject than what was first claimed? )

WayneTheGame wrote:


So try again. It's not "other games don't have people who complain" it's that only GW/40k has this divide between players and the level of anger at a company which, honestly, is pretty pathetic as far as companies go.

I pointed this out to you in the #i'mpartofthereason thread but apparently you still don't get it. You are refusing to acknowledge that you are creating needless arguments with people who actually agree with you. You are playing semantic games and trolling. You deliberately ignored the above response from WayneTheGame's post quoted above when you chose to attack his statement about Warmahordes rules instead. Your game is tiresome and weak.

Doom and gloom. Is that all most of you people post? With every new codex, edition, or model you all whine and say that it's gone to gak because the new stuff is different, and not perfect. why? Is that all you want to do, bitch about simple crap? The funny thing is, that all the doom-and-gloomers whine about everything, then leave, then whine about whatever game you go to.

Prestor Jon wrote:

I pointed this out to you in the #i'mpartofthereason thread but apparently you still don't get it. You are refusing to acknowledge that you are creating needless arguments with people who actually agree with you. You are playing semantic games and trolling. You deliberately ignored the above response from WayneTheGame's post quoted above when you chose to attack his statement about Warmahordes rules instead. Your game is tiresome and weak.

If they agree with me, then explain this:

 RunicFIN wrote:
So I ask again, if I claim:

"people whine and kneejerk on other forums aswell just the same"

why do you respond with:

"they whine and kneejerk more relating to GW"

instead of just saying: That is true RunicFIN

-in the first place?

And still not trolling, and there is no "game" since I´m not trolling. Why is everyone suddenly dismissing the fact you blamed me for fake screenshots now that I proved you were wrong? Is this a discussion were you get to fail time after time and just move onto a new counterargument/accusation?

And you talk about trolling and this not being a "discussion." Paradoxical the lot of you.

 Brennonjw wrote:
Doom and gloom. Is that all most of you people post? With every new codex, edition, or model you all whine and say that it's gone to gak because the new stuff is different, and not perfect. why? Is that all you want to do, bitch about simple crap? The funny thing is, that all the doom-and-gloomers whine about everything, then leave, then whine about whatever game you go to.

Anyway, you guys can keep repeating and trying to dismiss me as a troll since that´s the only card you got left after I´ve served you twice, but it doesn´t make it so just like your reality detached accusations didn´t make my screenshots fake ( which I already proved also. ) Not trolling, screenshots are real, people whine about other games on other forums all the same. These are all facts, which nothing you say will change. Just accept it.

Prestor Jon wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:
Whining and kneejerking happens on other forums ( which is what I claimed, if you´re claiming something different I gotta ask why counterargument on a different subject than what was first claimed? )

WayneTheGame wrote:


So try again. It's not "other games don't have people who complain" it's that only GW/40k has this divide between players and the level of anger at a company which, honestly, is pretty pathetic as far as companies go.

I pointed this out to you in the #i'mpartofthereason thread but apparently you still don't get it. You are refusing to acknowledge that you are creating needless arguments with people who actually agree with you. You are playing semantic games and trolling. You deliberately ignored the above response from WayneTheGame's post quoted above when you chose to attack his statement about Warmahordes rules instead. Your game is tiresome and weak.

Well, this is the point, actually. WayneTheGame already addressed that it's not about people complaining, it's about the level of complaining. Which you either conveniently ignored, or you simply didn't read because you somehow lost the ability to read English for a few seconds while looking at that post.

I guess we should go back to topic, then?

It's really hard not to notice that GW is being run terribly by people who don't even listen to their core target market. And they're even proud of that fact. Like everyone else I want to love 40k and WHFB and LotR/Hobbit, I really do. GW is just bent on making me not want to buy from them. So they're not getting any money from me.

Edit: Maybe a mod could clean up all the off topic discussion here?

 MajorStoffer wrote:
I don't think most people are truly angry about GW, rather despondent or myopic.

At this point, I can't get angry about the company and product; it's been too bad for too long, and the continued lack of concern from GW, the "All ahead full and damn the torpedos" mentality just makes the game worse and worse over time, so I just can't be enthusiastic anymore.

In my local club, there are two kinds of people; those who want to play a game, and those who want to play 40k. The difference comes from acceptance or refusal to accept what 40k has become; for those interested in their "tabletop fix," and don't mind combining multiple codexes, detachment shenanigans, dataslates, formations and so on, they still enjoy the game somewhat. They're not super pleased, and consider the current ruleset inferior to what came before, as recently as 6th, but they'll keep playing as they can keep winning and utilize large collections to cope with changes and GW's rules insanity, and don't have to deal with extremely high prices; they don't have to buy much or anything.

The other players, more invested in 40k as a setting as well as a tabletop game, who enjoy themed armies, apocalypse and scenarios over tournaments and direct competitions, they're the bunch just about finished with 40k. Despite all the "Forge the Narrative" bs, the game actively punishes you for building a themed army most of the time, it punishes you for taking anything less than the optimal, because the balance gulf is so enormous within and beyond individual codexes. Every codex keeps stripping options, and the "meta" requires you to take certain things or die against many armies, even other non-optimal themed ones that getting an enjoyable game takes so much more work than just agreeing not to be dicks to each other beforehand.

As I am part of the latter, we only play because we enjoy the social aspect of the game; I've shelved my Death Korps, sold a full Steel Legion army, shelved my first marine army and only persevere with my Minotaurs as the Marine codex is one of the only that can be both fluffy and perform alright, but I still get stomped most of the time, either from psykers, fliers, 7 monstrous creatures, daemons, eldar, tau, guard gunlines, and so rarely do I feel like I've lost because of how I've played, but because of how absolutely fething terrible the rules and powercreep is. The inability for our group to come to a consensus on how we want to play the game is part of the problem, but the very fact that we can't build the army we want and have any chance whatsoever of having a balanced game is a much bigger part of the problem. Is it fair to ask the competitive players to not build competitive lists; it's how they want to have fun (and by rights, they're having more fun than us), and is it any more fair to ask fluffy players to buy a bunch of new stuff they may not want to be competitive, or even to play amongst themselves?

Back in 5th, and for a good chunk of 6th, this wasn't even a discussion. Person A, B, and C ran competitive lists, while D through K ran themed lists, but even when the handful of competitive players played the themed guys, the game was not a foregone conclusion; a challenge for the themed player to win, but nothing like how it is now. That, more than anything else, is the root of the problem with 40k for me; it's become so broad, unbalanced, exploitable and imprecise that it's almost impossible to have a fun game without a lot of planning, preparation and deep knowledge of your opponent and how they will play or what army they'll bring.

Yeah, the game sucks now because PLAYERS made a meta and abuse things. Psykers aren't that deadly and are relatively rare in most armies, flies are easier to deal with now then ever before, bring bigger guns to fight people building spam lists of 7 MCs. You have the game because your local players are power gamers. by that logic, every game with multiplayer aspects sucks because there are always going to be power gamers.

Tone the snark WAY down, folks, or you'll find yourselves with some extra free time this weekend. If you're applying adjectives or otherwise labeling other posters in some fashion, you'd better be VERY sure that it's a friendly & polite adjective/label.

Only warning.

 heartserenade wrote:

Well, this is the point, actually. WayneTheGame already addressed that it's not about people complaining, it's about the level of complaining. Which you either conveniently ignored, or you simply didn't read because you somehow lost the ability to read English for a few seconds while looking at that post.

If you claim "people whine everywhere" and someone counterarguments "no they don´t, only GW games have this problem" they are infact disagreeing with you.

If you claim "people whine everywhere" and someone counterarguments "the level of animosity against GW is far different than it is against PP" they are infact counterargumenting about a different thing than what you even claimed.

All I´ve done is claimed the beforementioned. People responded with something that relates to a completely different thing ( and also accused me of being fraud, which I already proved wrong. )

Do you understand, now? I can´t articulate what I mean any clearer.

 Brennonjw wrote:


Yeah, the game sucks now because PLAYERS made a meta and abuse things. Psykers aren't that deadly and are relatively rare in most armies, flies are easier to deal with now then ever before, bring bigger guns to fight people building spam lists of 7 MCs. You have the game because your local players are power gamers. by that logic, every game with multiplayer aspects sucks because there are always going to be power gamers.

If the rules weren't so poor and badly written then there wouldn't be any aspects for those "power gamers" to exploit. The fact that this divide between "power gamers" and "fluff bunnies" doesn't even exist in any other miniature wargame should be enough to show that the problem isn't on the players (GW players aren't any different than the players of every other miniature wargame), but on the rules themselves.

PhantomViper wrote:

If the rules weren't so poor and badly written then there wouldn't be any aspects for those "power gamers" to exploit. The fact that this divide between "power gamers" and "fluff bunnies" doesn't even exist in any other miniature wargame should be enough to show that the problem isn't on the players (GW players aren't any different than the players of every other miniature wargame), but on the rules themselves.

Considering how many rules there are in 40K for example, I find saying they are all poor and badly written is an overstatement. There are some things you can abuse, but in general the balance is now better than in the 3 last editions.

And the difference between powergamers and casual gamers does exist in other games all the same, as do things you can abuse ( I won´t list an example here because someone will say it´s not a powergamer list element anyway, but I´ve followed WM/H tournaments and I´m quite aware of the competitve builds. ) Let´s just say "why aren´t you using 2 Stormwalls" is quite a common saying on the PP forums.

 RunicFIN wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

If the rules weren't so poor and badly written then there wouldn't be any aspects for those "power gamers" to exploit. The fact that this divide between "power gamers" and "fluff bunnies" doesn't even exist in any other miniature wargame should be enough to show that the problem isn't on the players (GW players aren't any different than the players of every other miniature wargame), but on the rules themselves.

Considering how many rules there are in 40K for example, I find saying they are all poor and badly written is an overstatement. There are some things you can abuse, but in general the balance is now better than in the 3 last editions.

And the difference between powergamers and casual gamers does exist in other games all the same, as do things you can abuse ( I won´t list an example here because someone will say it´s not a powergamer list element anyway, but I´ve followed WM/H tournaments and I´m quite aware of the competitve builds. ) Let´s just say "why aren´t you using 2 Stormwalls" is quite a common saying on the PP forums.

Maybe on the Cygnar forums, because the Khador forums has a lot of "I like MoW how can I make them work" and people get good advice. So I don't believe that for a minute. You're much more likely to find people telling you how to utilize what you want versus telling you X sucks take Y instead. Can't say the same for 40k.

What you are doing is avoiding the points being made to nitpick only things that help your cause.

WayneTheGame wrote:

Maybe on the Cygnar forums, because the Khador forums has a lot of "I like MoW how can I make them work" and people get good advice. So I don't believe that for a minute. You're much more likely to find people telling you how to utilize what you want versus telling you X sucks take Y instead. Can't say the same for 40k.

Gotta disagree, been playing Dark Angels lately and hence been checking out a lot of threads and armylists, and discussions about them. In general a Land Raider or Terminators isn´t considered an optimal choice, yet I´ve seen countless threads with people advicing others on how to make the less optimal units work. What I can agree on is that in 40K the difference of power with "useless" and top tier units is larger than in Warmachine. I disagree on how the community behaves ( the way you describe ) because I see the exact same advice and people helping others out on 40K forums. Every day.

WayneTheGame wrote:

What you are doing is avoiding the points being made to nitpick only things that help your cause.

Hmm no, I answered straight up to a point regarding powergamers, casual gamers and how supposedly the gap doesn´t exist in other miniature games.