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If the rules weren't so poor and badly written then there wouldn't be any aspects for those "power gamers" to exploit. The fact that this divide between "power gamers" and "fluff bunnies" doesn't even exist in any other miniature wargame should be enough to show that the problem isn't on the players (GW players aren't any different than the players of every other miniature wargame), but on the rules themselves.
And the difference between powergamers and casual gamers does exist in other games all the same, as do things you can abuse ( I won´t list an example here because someone will say it´s not a powergamer list element anyway, but I´ve followed WM/H tournaments and I´m quite aware of the competitve builds. ) Let´s just say "why aren´t you using 2 Stormwalls" is quite a common saying on the PP forums.
Well, that point went dramatically over your head...
2 Stormwalls is in no way game breaking, exploitative, and simply unable to be dealt with like some of the gak that can be abused in 40k. They're not even in the same league. Don't even try to compare them to 2++ reroll spam or other such stupid loopholes.
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
Come on Grimtuff and WayneTheGame, I didn't reply to him, why did you guys had to?
He isn't interested in any meaningful discussion, he is just going to pick on any literal point that he can happen to be able to disprove and argue it to death... Just ignore him.
PhantomViper wrote: Come on Grimtuff and WayneTheGame, I didn't reply to him, why did you guys had to?
He isn't interested in any meaningful discussion, he is just going to pick on any literal point that he can happen to be able to disprove and argue it to death... Just ignore him.
I can disagree with people just the same as anyone else, and ofcourse I bring proof especially now that before my initial proof was being labeled as fake ( which again, it isn´t. ) You fellas said before people have the right to disagree and it is what discussion is about aswell, and now I don´t have that same right?
Grimtuff wrote: 2 Stormwalls is in no way game breaking, exploitative, and simply unable to be dealt with like some of the gak that can be abused in 40k. They're not even in the same league. Don't even try to compare them to 2++ reroll spam or other such stupid loopholes.
RunicFIN wrote: I won´t list an example here because someone will say it´s not a powergamer list element anyway, but I´ve followed WM/H tournaments and I´m quite aware of the competitve builds. ) Let´s just say "why aren´t you using 2 Stormwalls" is quite a common saying on the PP forums.
And this is why I didn´t give any build examples but instead just referred a common saying that also displays that the difference of powergamers and casual gamers exists. Because I knew someone would hurry to instantly try and disprove my examples even if I gave the most gamebreaking ones in existence ( and yeah, they do exist in WM/H aswell. ) And you did it anyway... weird.
And I also said:
RunicFIN wrote: What I can agree on is that in 40K the difference of power with "useless" and top tier units is larger than in Warmachine.
which is exactly the same thing as:
Grimtuff wrote: like some of the gak that can be abused in 40k. They're not even in the same league. Don't even try to compare them to 2++ reroll spam or other such stupid loopholes.
So what went over who´s head?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/09 17:27:43
Backfire wrote: I really don't get this "7th edition makes me quit" -thing which some people have going on. 7th edition is basically 6th edition with changed Psychic rules. Surely changing Psychic powers (arguably for the better) is not going to make anyone quit? I mean I understand if people had already quit because of 6th edition since that had lot more changes, or they quit because they don't like the codecies, or prices.
Wargaming forums just have more kneejerking whiners than average.
Well, this is the point, actually. WayneTheGame already addressed that it's not about people complaining, it's about the level of complaining. Which you either conveniently ignored, or you simply didn't read because you somehow lost the ability to read English for a few seconds while looking at that post.
If you claim "people whine everywhere" and someone counterarguments "no they don´t, only GW games have this problem" they are infact disagreeing with you.
If you claim "people whine everywhere" and someone counterarguments "the level of animosity against GW is far different than it is against PP" they are infact counterargumenting about a different thing than what you even claimed.
All I´ve done is claimed the beforementioned. People responded with something that relates to a completely different thing ( and also accused me of being fraud, which I already proved wrong. )
Do you understand, now? I can´t articulate what I mean any clearer.
You're the one that took a post questioning why somebody would ragequit over the change to 7th Edition, a rather specific issue pertaining to WH40K and changed the topic to wargaming forums have more whining than any other forum (which btw you have yet to actually qualify because you then changed to argument to Warmahordes forums have the same amount of "whining" as GW centric forums).
Most every tabletop wargame has a living ruleset that gets changed/updated over time with new editions, supplements etc. but it does seem, from my limited anecdotal evidence, that GW's games spawn more of a ragequit response than any other. Your personal experience and opinion may be different but I doubt we'll ever find a collected data set that shows empirical proof that such a claim is true or false.
If the rules weren't so poor and badly written then there wouldn't be any aspects for those "power gamers" to exploit. The fact that this divide between "power gamers" and "fluff bunnies" doesn't even exist in any other miniature wargame should be enough to show that the problem isn't on the players (GW players aren't any different than the players of every other miniature wargame), but on the rules themselves.
Considering how many rules there are in 40K for example, I find saying they are all poor and badly written is an overstatement. There are some things you can abuse, but in general the balance is now better than in the 3 last editions.
I would agrue that the sheer volume of rules in 40K shows that its a bad ruleset. Using Warmachine as an example since you seem familiar with that game, if you were playing a game of Warmachine with two players with armies of different factions how many rulebooks would you need to have present? With 40K it would be minimum of 3 with the possibility of needing 6 if playing with allies and the possible inclusion of supplements/dataslates. GW has been shown to take the approach of creating new models that require new rules leading to rules bloat that can hamper the flow and enjoyment of the game which in my opinion is a problem and proof of poor rules writing.
I would agrue that the sheer volume of rules in 40K shows that its a bad ruleset. Using Warmachine as an example since you seem familiar with that game, if you were playing a game of Warmachine with two players with armies of different factions how many rulebooks would you need to have present? With 40K it would be minimum of 3 with the possibility of needing 6 if playing with allies and the possible inclusion of supplements/dataslates. GW has been shown to take the approach of creating new models that require new rules leading to rules bloat that can hamper the flow and enjoyment of the game which in my opinion is a problem and proof of poor rules writing.
It is true that more things that need to be factored in always complicate things, be it rules for a game or anything else.
Regarding the communities, I never claimed PP forums have the same amount of whining than GW centric ones do. I only claimed people whine and kneejerk everywhere, on any games forum. I used the term "people whine just the same" atleast once - by this I mean what I just said. People behave the same everywhere. I do not mean "same amount."
I believe though that the whining goes in scale with a forums userbase. I don´t believe there´s less whiners on a certain forum because of the game it´s connected to - I believe it´s just the amount of users. Be the forum about Infinity, Warmahordes or 40K, the forum with 10,000 users will have less whiners than the one with 50,000. Note in this case I say believe, as I cannot prove it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/09 18:27:42
Backfire wrote: I really don't get this "7th edition makes me quit" -thing which some people have going on. 7th edition is basically 6th edition with changed Psychic rules. Surely changing Psychic powers (arguably for the better) is not going to make anyone quit? I mean I understand if people had already quit because of 6th edition since that had lot more changes, or they quit because they don't like the codecies, or prices.
40K forums just have more kneejerking whiners than average.
Fixed that for you. This isn't a wargaming problem, it's a wholly GW/40k problem. Other games don't have this problem.
I would agrue that the sheer volume of rules in 40K shows that its a bad ruleset. Using Warmachine as an example since you seem familiar with that game, if you were playing a game of Warmachine with two players with armies of different factions how many rulebooks would you need to have present? With 40K it would be minimum of 3 with the possibility of needing 6 if playing with allies and the possible inclusion of supplements/dataslates. GW has been shown to take the approach of creating new models that require new rules leading to rules bloat that can hamper the flow and enjoyment of the game which in my opinion is a problem and proof of poor rules writing.
It is true that more things that need to be factored in always complicate things, be it rules for a game or anything else.
Regarding the communities, I never claimed PP forums have the same amount of whining than GW centric ones do. I only claimed people whine and kneejerk everywhere, on any games forum. I used the term "people whine just the same" atleast once - by this I mean what I just said. People behave the same everywhere. I do not mean "same amount."
I believe though that the whining goes in scale with a forums userbase. I don´t believe there´s less whiners on a certain forum because of the game it´s connected to - I believe it´s just the amount of users. Be the forum about Infinity, Warmahordes or 40K, the forum with 10,000 users will have less whiners than the one with 50,000. Note in this case I say believe, as I cannot prove it.
This thread was started with the OP stating his take on the current state of affairs with GW's WH40K as he perceived it. It was then replied to with other people's take on GW generally and 40K specifically. Somebody commented that he couldn't understand why GW's 7th Ed could make people ragequit and you responded that wargaming forums have more whining than the average forum (again a claim you have failed to support in any way). Somebody else ammended your, somewhat off topic, comment to emphasize that GW has a bigger problem with complaints from current/former players and a divisive player base unlike that faced by any other game/game forum. To which you then replied that PP forums also have whining.
You have now posted that large forums have more whiners/whining than smaller forums which correlates to the claim that GW, being the biggest company in the hobby and having the biggest presence in gaming forums, has a whining problem that goes above and beyond the whining found with other games. Once again, you've spent pages of needless arguments and semantic nit picking to foster a debate with somebody with whom you're actually in agreement. Seems like a colossal waste of time to me.
Post whatever you want, have fun, I'm not engaging you in this topic anymore.
Prestor Jon wrote: needless arguments and semantic nit picking to foster a debate with somebody with whom you're actually in agreement.
If you read the posts of other posters you will see that there is 2% agreeing and 98% counterargumenting on everything they possibly can counterargument on, even on different subjects than what were originally talked about. Arguing about something different is essentially the same thing as arguing with someone who agrees with you - in neither case there is disagreement on the original point. It takes two to tango.
No one initially said "that is true, you are correct" - without any sidetracking, deliberate/accidental misunderstanding, or nitpicking when I said people whine on other forums just the same. No one. Instead they replied with what you can read on the pages, ranging from calling legit screenshots fraud and other comedy level stuff.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2014/10/09 19:36:44
Prestor Jon wrote: needless arguments and semantic nit picking to foster a debate with somebody with whom you're actually in agreement.
If you read the posts of other posters you will see that there is 2% agreeing and 98% counterargumenting on everything they possibly can counterargument on, even on different subjects than what were originally talked about. Arguing about something different is essentially the same thing as arguing with someone who agrees with you - in neither case there is disagreement on the original point. It takes two to tango.
No one initially said "that is true, you are correct" - without any sidetracking, deliberate/accidental misunderstanding, or nitpicking when I said people whine on other forums just the same. No one. Instead they replied with what you can read on the pages, ranging from calling legit screenshots fraud and other comedy level stuff.
Most of these "counter-arguments" are people trying to explain what their position is and you misinterpreting their positions and arguing against things no one's really saying.
Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions.
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
PhantomViper wrote: Come on Grimtuff and WayneTheGame, I didn't reply to him, why did you guys had to?
He isn't interested in any meaningful discussion, he is just going to pick on any literal point that he can happen to be able to disprove and argue it to death... Just ignore him.
Gotta agree with this. I don't think anyone is going to move on their points here, so it's a circular discussion. Having said that, I think this thread has probably run its course anyway.
All things said though, if, ifGW got its act together, I think a lot of gamers would return. Currently though, I'm perfectly happy playing the games I play (Aetherverse and Infinity), and actually have no qualms with them at all
Pretre: OOOOHHHHH snap. That's like driving away from hitting a pedestrian.
Pacific:First person to Photoshop a GW store into the streets of Kabul wins the thread.
Selym: "Be true to thyself, play Chaos" - Jesus, Daemon Prince of Cegorach.
H.B.M.C: You can't lobotomise someone twice.
PhantomViper wrote: Come on Grimtuff and WayneTheGame, I didn't reply to him, why did you guys had to?
He isn't interested in any meaningful discussion, he is just going to pick on any literal point that he can happen to be able to disprove and argue it to death... Just ignore him.
Gotta agree with this. I don't think anyone is going to move on their points here, so it's a circular discussion. Having said that, I think this thread has probably run its course anyway.
All things said though, if, ifGW got its act together, I think a lot of gamers would return. Currently though, I'm perfectly happy playing the games I play (Aetherverse and Infinity), and actually have no qualms with them at all
For me, I do play Warmachine and like it, but I secretly yearn to play 40k again. So for me personally if GW got its act together I would certainly return. But I don't think it will ever capture that coolness and feel in 1998-2000. And in its current state it's not worth the money that would be spent when I can spend roughly the same and get a better game with a company that cares.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/10 01:08:36
Most of these "counter-arguments" are people trying to explain what their position is and you misinterpreting their positions and arguing against things no one's really saying.
Hmm nah, it´s people arguing besides a given point, and calling others liars ( like you did, infact there isn´t a single post I´ve made you haven´t nitpicked on. ) along with bickering, unpolite posts and the like. It´s not, and was not people just "trying to explain what their position is."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/10 03:28:07
Most of these "counter-arguments" are people trying to explain what their position is and you misinterpreting their positions and arguing against things no one's really saying.
Hmm nah, it´s people arguing besides a given point, and calling others liars ( like you did, infact there isn´t a single post I´ve made you haven´t nitpicked on. ) along with bickering, unpolite posts and the like. It´s not, and was not people just "trying to explain what their position is."
If you feel a majority of posters are rude and impolite, then there might be common factor at work here?
I mean, your first contribution to this thread was this:
RunicFIN wrote: Wargaming forums just have more kneejerking whiners than average.
What kind of response were you expecting? I eyed through the thread, and the impolite and harsh posts from the "haters" didn't really start until after you came in.
-Loki- wrote: There's like, a whole thread where people are talking about their reasons for not playing GW's games anymore. This would have fit right in there.
Absolutely, the beaten to an unrecognizable pulp, dead horse thread.
Crush your enemies, see them driven before you and to hear the lamentations of the women.
-Loki- wrote: There's like, a whole thread where people are talking about their reasons for not playing GW's games anymore. This would have fit right in there.
Absolutely, the beaten to an unrecognizable pulp, dead horse thread.
Not dead horse.
I made it for this very purpose, to document and show people like you why people are leaving. You'd be surprised how often it has to be done.
Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions.
RunicFIN wrote: True. But it doesn't change what I wrote in the earlier post. Expected nothing less than offensive posts and bickering, this is Dakka.
If you keep posting things like this, what do you expect to get as a response?
Frankly, your posts are part of the problem you're accusing other people of.
I thought this one was over. Guess not. Anyway, if you read these forums actively you are therefore aware of the fact that even if you act polite and civil you will be met with bickering, personal attacks and attempts at discrediting you, and deliberate misinterpretation 90% of the time, unless the topic is something neutral enough, inwhich case I´ll know there might be some benefit. I just say things the way they are and skip the useless circling around, I avoid the diminishing returns.
Anyhow, this is probably the 7th or so post inwhich you ask me personal questions and queries, I advise you to PM me instead so we don´t have to discuss your interests regarding me in threads about other subjects any further.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/11 18:24:48
I thought this one was over. Guess not. Anyway, if you read these forums actively you are therefore aware of the fact that even if you act polite and civil you will be met with bickering, personal attacks and attempts at discrediting you, and deliberate misinterpretation 90% of the time, unless the topic is something neutral enough, inwhich case I´ll know there might be some benefit. I just say things the way they are and skip the useless circling around, I avoid the diminishing returns.
Anyhow, this is probably the 7th or so post inwhich you ask me personal questions and queries, I advise you to PM me instead so we don´t have to discuss your interests regarding me in threads about other subjects any further.
You know, because I called you on it another thread, please cite these 90% of the time personal attacks, discrediting, and deliberate misinterpretation.
I haven't seen any of it. Not even a little.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
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Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
RunicFIN wrote: I thought this one was over. Guess not. Anyway, if you read these forums actively you are therefore aware of the fact that even if you act polite and civil you will be met with bickering, personal attacks and attempts at discrediting you, and deliberate misinterpretation 90% of the time, unless the topic is something neutral enough, inwhich case I´ll know there might be some benefit. I just say things the way they are and skip the useless circling around, I avoid the diminishing returns.
When someone else is rude or aggressive, it's a terrible and unprovoked personal attack on me from people who can't handle rational debate.
When I am rude or aggressive, I'm just talking straight and telling it like it is.
"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich."
Please stop feeding the troll - you know that he bites.
The Auld Grump
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
Here´s a case of misinterpretation and discrediting for you right off the bat, Blacksails.
I don´t know what forums you read. I see all the mentioned activities on these forums every single day towards a wide range of folk.
I find claiming "I don´t see deliberate misinterpretation, nitpicking, personal attacks and discrediting on DakkaDakka" or any internet forum pretty much -quite an extreme claim, because it literally happens every day around different parts of different forums. Not that you said such a thing, but if someone would. I´m sure you meant the few threads or so, and probably thought that I did too or was just talking on a personal note. I was talking in general. A case of misinterpretation there.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/11 19:50:15
Here´s a case of misinterpretation and discrediting for you right off the bat, Blacksails.
Grump is one of the most affable and least easily riled personalities you'll find posting in Discussions on a regular basis, that you, and we are both assuming it's you, you weren't specifically referenced, prompted this sort of response from him speaks volumes in and of itself, as you'd know if you'd were here often enough to become acquainted with some of the personalities behind the usernames.
Which leads me neatly on to another point, your time on the board or number of posts has absolutely no bearing on the validity of your argument, contrary to the PM you sent me after your thread was locked and couldn't get the last word in. I didn't say your argument was rubbish because you had a low number of posts, I said that your sort of post was typical of posters with low post counts, that it was a terrible argument was purely coincidental.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Azreal13 wrote: contrary to the PM you sent me after your thread was locked
Did the same thing to you, too, huh? Funny thing is, I had originally intended to address his points piece by piece, but then I realized that I could spend probably half an hour doing that and have him ignore or willfully misinterpret things, or I could drop a snarky one-liner and go do something else with my time.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/10/11 20:01:20
Azreal13 wrote: I didn't say your argument was rubbish because you had a low number of posts, I said that your sort of post was typical of posters with low post counts, that it was a terrible argument was purely coincidental.
You clearly think someone having a low post count somehow means their word has less weight, it´s quite obvious. Must say it´s a really poor logic. I´ve seen you use post count as "leverage" ( quotation marks for obvious reasons ) before.
Didn´t play any victim card, now where did you get this one into your head? You just keep making up new and new things, I admire your creativity, I´ll say that much. Saying nitpicking, misinterpretation, attacks and discrediting happens on forums every day = victim card. Ok. Again, strong case of misinterpretation.
And yeah, I told Azrael I find judging someones views on post count is kind of stupid really. And Ratbot said I have never even played Warmachine ( again, some discrediting examples for you Blacksails. Still not seeing it? ) I can´t even fathom how someone just decides a person hasn´t done what they say they have without knowing them at all. Do you?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/11 20:03:05
RunicFIN wrote:if you act polite and civil you will be met with bickering, personal attacks and attempts at discrediting you, and deliberate misinterpretation 90% of the time
Didn´t play any victim card, now where did you get this one into your head?
Nope, no victim card at all,
Totally in my head.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress 
