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So this is a thread devoted to all of those little questions people have about the Horus Heresy. Everyone has them, whether they've read the books or not. This should help cut down on all the Horus Heresy threads if people decide to just post here, but hey, who knows.

My question is how could half of the primarchs just not give a gak about humanity? We see this psychotic behavior in every traitor legion, and I'm left to wonder how it could be that consistent. I can understand the concept of rebellion against the Emperor, but why forsake the whole of mankind as well? It makes them campy, and homogenous. But specifically I'm wondering if they even have motivations beyond "They're all completely crazy, man". Like for example, did Horus ever care about the common man? If so, what changed? Did any of them ever have these kinds of values before their fall?

I'm only 1.5 books in to the Heresy, but Horus certainly had real compassion and care for humanity on a personal and galactic level. That's his real tragedy, that before the fall, Horus is really nice guy. He respects his enemy and his fellow warriors, and actively seeks to avoid conflict where possible.



Others, maybe not. Fulgrim and his legion pursued perfection and glory, and this ultimately would lead them to abandon humaity along the way. Lorgar sought something to worship, and when this could not be the Emperor, he turned to more receptive gods...

 Paradigm wrote:
I'm only 1.5 books in to the Heresy, but Horus certainly had real compassion and care for humanity on a personal and galactic level. That's his real tragedy, that before the fall, Horus is really nice guy. He respects his enemy and his fellow warriors, and actively seeks to avoid conflict where possible.

Spoiler:

in Horus Rising, his fleet come across another human empire, the Interex, who are far less xenophobic, working with Eldar and other Xenos and therefore having a far better understanding of chaos and also technology.

Abbadon and Erebus of the Word Bearers are all for destroying them, but Horus does everything he can to ensure a peaceful induction into the Imperium takes place. He honours them, visits their homeworld, and it is only when Erebus burns down their armoury that hostilities break out.

Even then, Horus refuses to fight until the last possible moment, and despairs that a peace could not be made. Arguably, in this regard, he was among the purest and kindest of the Primarchs, it's only when he's defenceless and wounded that Chaos can begin to corrupt him.

Others, maybe not. Fulgrim and his legion pursued perfection and glory, and this ultimately would lead them to abandon humaity along the way. Lorgar sought something to worship, and when this could not be the Emperor, he turned to more receptive gods...

Sounds like Abbadon doesn't venerate his Primarch that much.

Also, one would think that Horus would be wary of the obvious psychological issues of his brothers and, you know, see things more eye to eye with the primarchs that turned out loyalist? I've heard some of the Vengeful Spirit audio book, and combining that with what I've read on Lexicanum, Mortarion sounds pretty stable and fair. Combining that with how he was corrupted, he's my favorite primarch out of all the legions. Still, it's not like Mortarion was the one who told Horus to follow chaos.

Abbadon usually goes along with Horus, it was just that one incident in the book that he really spoke out, in a way being too loyal to the Imperial ideals. It's also worth noting that Abbadon is one of the Mournival, a group of 4 captains that Horus gives free reign to speak their minds, the idea being that they provide a collective conscience of sorts and ensure Horus acts in the best interests of the legion and the Empire. So he wasn't really speaking out of turn (until, that is, Horus decides to pursue a peaceful course and he still persists, at which point Horus gives him a right yelling at.)

In terms of relationships with other Primarchs, he is in fact closest to Sanguinis, Fulgrim, and gets on pretty well with Dorn as well. There's a good bit in Horus Rising where he discusses them all with Sanguinis, and comments that he respects Gulliman and Lion as generals and warriors, but was never close with them.

I really do recommend reading Horus Rising, it answers a lot of questions and puts a different perspective on several events and characters, as well as being a damn good book in its own right.

How did it all go so wrong?
Was it malice or mere incompetence?

I'm not certain as I'm only a few chapters into the second book (where said event happens), but I believe it has a lot to do with Horus being wounded, and while he's basically comatose Chaos begins to seep into him.

Once he goes, those other primarchs who have reason to joined him, Fulgrim for the power offered, Angron because he felt betrayed by the Emperor for taking him away from his 'brothers' (the army of warriors he led in rebellion before the Emp found him). Not sure on Mortarion. Perturabo goes over to settle the score with Dorn, and I think Kurze might have for that reason or maybe not?

Magnus goes over because his use of sorcery, to help the Emperor of all things, is censured. Horus also had a hand in that; The Emperor commanded Leman to offer Magnus an amnesty, Horus (already turned by this point) passes on the order to Leman to just wipe them out. This was a tactical move, as he would either get the Thousand Sons and Magnus on his side, or take out one and seriously bloody the other of the most dangerous legions, the Wolves and the Sons. Had either of those legions stood in strength between Horus and Terra, he would have as good as lost. Same reason he sends Lorgar to attack the Ultras at Calth, to take out the largest legion.

Animus wrote:
How did it all go so wrong?
Was it malice or mere incompetence?

I believe, in a way, Horus thought what he was doing was right. I believed he cared about the common man but was willing to sacrifice as many as it took to defeat the Emperor.

Passage from Vengeful Spirit;

Thamor wrote:

Animus wrote:
How did it all go so wrong?
Was it malice or mere incompetence?

I believe, in a way, Horus thought what he was doing was right. I believed he cared about the common man but was willing to sacrifice as many as it took to defeat the Emperor.

Passage from Vengeful Spirit;

Spoiler:

“Give it time,’ said Horus. ‘They’ll be cheering my name again when I bring them the crown of Terra.’
‘A crown is it now?’ said Mortarion. ‘Being made Warmaster wasn’t enough, so now you’re going to be king?’
‘Have you forgotten already?’ said”
“Horus as the citadel’s rearing towers and gilded domes came into view.
‘Forgotten what?’
‘I’m not going to be king, nor even Emperor,’ said Horus. ‘I’m going to be a god.”

I like Mortarion more and more with every new thing I read about him.

 Quarterdime wrote:
My question is how could half of the primarchs just not give a gak about humanity? We see this psychotic behavior in every traitor legion, and I'm left to wonder how it could be that consistent. I can understand the concept of rebellion against the Emperor, but why forsake the whole of mankind as well? It makes them campy, and homogenous. But specifically I'm wondering if they even have motivations beyond "They're all completely crazy, man". Like for example, did Horus ever care about the common man? If so, what changed? Did any of them ever have these kinds of values before their fall?

I don't think the Horus Heresy series has really done much to explain this, which is a shame, as you know, it's the whole story behind it.

Original fluff they did care for humanity and thought Horus was the man for the job, but as the Heresy went on Chaos chipped away at the Primarchs and we end up with nasty meanies.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Quarterdime wrote:
My question is how could half of the primarchs just not give a gak about humanity? We see this psychotic behavior in every traitor legion, and I'm left to wonder how it could be that consistent. I can understand the concept of rebellion against the Emperor, but why forsake the whole of mankind as well? It makes them campy, and homogenous. But specifically I'm wondering if they even have motivations beyond "They're all completely crazy, man". Like for example, did Horus ever care about the common man? If so, what changed? Did any of them ever have these kinds of values before their fall?

I don't think the Horus Heresy series has really done much to explain this, which is a shame, as you know, it's the whole story behind it.

Original fluff they did care for humanity and thought Horus was the man for the job, but as the Heresy went on Chaos chipped away at the Primarchs and we end up with nasty meanies.

Isn't that the truth. Part of why I don't read the Horus Heresy novels. They're written around the traitor legions, which were just written around themes and "rule of cool". It doesn't entirely fit within a logical framework. Still, most of it can. And that's where the value lies.

I do enjoy the series, it's just certain things that could have been explained and used to really set up the story haven't and they've missed a trick.

The whole reason for the Heresy seems to be rather flimsy and only mentioned in one of the main series so far. I haven't read Vengeful Spirit yet though, so maybe all is revealed there, which I doubt.

At least in the fluff before the series, like from the Codi or Visions, we could accept the briefness of the reason because that was all the information we had, it being a summary of what happened.

Having read every Horus Heresy book up to Vengeful Spirit as well as recently having gone back and reread the first three books (the new corrected versions), I thought Horus's turn was actually quite clear. It was the Emperor leaving the Great Crusade and the fear of the primarchs, as well as the rest of humanity, being tossed aside like those who had come before. While the Emperor goes on to ascend to godhood. It was the fear of being forgotten, the mystery of what the Emperor was doing back on Terra, combined with the corrupting whispers of Erebus that saw Horus turn.

Each of the other primarchs turned for very different reasons. Angron saw the Emperor as no better than his previous enslavers, Fulgrim was already being corrupted by the Learian blade, Curze held no love for Horus or the Emperor and essentially acted on his own, Mortarion respected Horus over the Emperor but had also been picked out as a target of Nurgle since birth. Perturabo was frustrated with always being treated like dirt by everyone but in some ways regrets his betrayal, yet knows it is too late to go back. Magnus managed to outsmart Tzeentch at the last moment by refusing to fight back, which unfortunately forced him to side with Horus out of self-preservation. Alpharius remains an enigma and Lorgar should be self-evident.

Each has their own reason for fighting the Emperor and to distill it down to 'Horus is the better choice for humanity' is to much of a simplification.

jareddm wrote:
Having read every Horus Heresy book up to Vengeful Spirit as well as recently having gone back and reread the first three books (the new corrected versions), I thought Horus's turn was actually quite clear. It was the Emperor leaving the Great Crusade and the fear of the primarchs, as well as the rest of humanity, being tossed aside like those who had come before. While the Emperor goes on to ascend to godhood. It was the fear of being forgotten, the mystery of what the Emperor was doing back on Terra, combined with the corrupting whispers of Erebus that saw Horus turn.

Each of the other primarchs turned for very different reasons. Angron saw the Emperor as no better than his previous enslavers, Fulgrim was already being corrupted by the Learian blade, Curze held no love for Horus or the Emperor and essentially acted on his own, Mortarion respected Horus over the Emperor but had also been picked out as a target of Nurgle since birth. Perturabo was frustrated with always being treated like dirt by everyone but in some ways regrets his betrayal, yet knows it is too late to go back. Magnus managed to outsmart Tzeentch at the last moment by refusing to fight back, which unfortunately forced him to side with Horus out of self-preservation. Alpharius remains an enigma and Lorgar should be self-evident.

Each has their own reason for fighting the Emperor and to distill it down to 'Horus is the better choice for humanity' is to much of a simplification.

Did I not say I could understand the whole "rebel against the emperor" thing?

And who said they did? There were plenty of worlds that sided with Horus and received protection for their loyalty. There have been stories in both the Age of Darkness and Tales of Heresy anthologies to show this.

On the other hand, it's very easy to see them not caring about human lives because they grew up in places where human life is cheap. Nostromo, Nuceria, Olympia, Barbarus, and Cthonia were not nice places.

jareddm wrote:
And who said they did? There were plenty of worlds that sided with Horus and received protection for their loyalty. There have been stories in both the Age of Darkness and Tales of Heresy anthologies to show this.

I wonder what the worlds protected by the other legions looked like before during and after the heresy. A looot of narrative content there.

jareddm wrote:
Having read every Horus Heresy book up to Vengeful Spirit as well as recently having gone back and reread the first three books (the new corrected versions), I thought Horus's turn was actually quite clear. It was the Emperor leaving the Great Crusade and the fear of the primarchs, as well as the rest of humanity, being tossed aside like those who had come before. While the Emperor goes on to ascend to godhood. It was the fear of being forgotten, the mystery of what the Emperor was doing back on Terra, combined with the corrupting whispers of Erebus that saw Horus turn.

Each of the other primarchs turned for very different reasons. Angron saw the Emperor as no better than his previous enslavers, Fulgrim was already being corrupted by the Learian blade, Curze held no love for Horus or the Emperor and essentially acted on his own, Mortarion respected Horus over the Emperor but had also been picked out as a target of Nurgle since birth. Perturabo was frustrated with always being treated like dirt by everyone but in some ways regrets his betrayal, yet knows it is too late to go back. Magnus managed to outsmart Tzeentch at the last moment by refusing to fight back, which unfortunately forced him to side with Horus out of self-preservation. Alpharius remains an enigma and Lorgar should be self-evident.

Each has their own reason for fighting the Emperor and to distill it down to 'Horus is the better choice for humanity' is to much of a simplification.

I do go back and re-read the books myself often, usually to refresh on certain bits of information. I don't get the same from reading False Gods though. His fear of being forgotten seems to be the most evident reason. After his dream scene there isn't any explanation for his actions and everyone just seems to go along with his plan without much convincing. This is my problem with it.

I can put together all the reasons why as you have, but stuff like the IA provided as good an explanation as the many books in the series itself, in a lot less pages. With all the extra pages I would like a lot more detail concerning the Primarchs and their actions or reasoning and a lot less filler, which is what i am getting at.

Just to check, which edition of it are you reading? There have been changes to the hard-cover and trade-paperback editions.

The first edition where Erebus uses the Davinite temple to infiltrate his dream and shows him the Emperor on Terra, the Statues and Magnus comes along.

But that's my point as well. His reasoning has been made in one book, it's not been gone into in any other, just that the heresy is happening and being fought. None that I have read anyway. Warmaster might be one that has his ideas on it as I know it has his reflections on the other Primarchs.

That's always present, but comparing the mass market paperback to the trade paperback, Erubus and Horus's discussion is longer and goes far more in detail about his feelings about the Imperium as a whole and the Emperor's possible ascension.

His turn was longer than that as well, as he shows clear frustration at being controlled by the Imperial Senate and having to answer to various non-astartes institutions in Horus Rising as well. And technically, he doesn't even actually accept chaos himself until Vengeful Spirit, which take place nearly three years later.

I've only just finished the dream sequence bit myself in False Gods, and I can pretty easily rationalize how Horus was corrupted. In fact, it shows a good deal more refinement than the usual mustache-twirling villians I've come to expect; he has a few fears, frustrations and weaknesses. They're not significant individually, but you can see it all weighing on him in the leadup to this; frustrating with bureaucrats, separation from the Emperor, wounded pride over not being trusted with whatever it is the big E is up to on Terra, fear of obsolescence and so on.

Erebus and Chaos prey upon those weaknesses, feed them with visions of the future and past, manipulated just enough to convince Horus of that his worst fears and suspicions are true. It's how I've always thought of how Chaos would actually work; find the chink in the armour, and exploit it to the point where the subject is far too damned to repent. It's not unlike how intelligence operations are conducted in the real world; get someone in the other camp to do something minor for you on moral grounds, find what they care about, cater to it for something small. Then you own them, and can ramp up what you can make them do, and they either work willingly, or you can blackmail them into long-term co-operation.

Chaos simply switches the blackmail out for complete control mentally and/or physically. I am curious to see how things go along with the rest of the legion; Horus and Abaddon have demonstrated weaknesses, and many are absolutely devoted to him, but to the point where they'll follow the same path? I just can't see Aximand, Torgaddon, or even Maloghurst abandoning the Emperor and Imperium lightly. They've impressed me with Horus, made his fall tragic and fairly believable, and preventable if the Emperor had been a little less secretive in the first place, or Loken been a little quicker on the uptake, or Magnus just a little more forceful, but I don't know if my currently favourable impression will last.

I've been very wary of the series thus far, and I really enjoyed Horus Rising, and I've enjoyed False Gods (though I have noticed one continuity issue, Horus Rising describes Horus as being clean shaven, scalp and all, much like the Forgeworld model, whereas he suddenly has hair in False Gods), but there's 29 more books between now and the "present," so we'll see how long my enjoyment lasts.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
(though I have noticed one continuity issue, Horus Rising describes Horus as being clean shaven, scalp and all, much like the Forgeworld model, whereas he suddenly has hair in False Gods)

Would you happen to have a page number for that? I'd like to check that against the trade paperback (or if you have the trade paperback, against the mass market paperback).

jareddm wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:
(though I have noticed one continuity issue, Horus Rising describes Horus as being clean shaven, scalp and all, much like the Forgeworld model, whereas he suddenly has hair in False Gods)

Would you happen to have a page number for that? I'd like to check that against the trade paperback (or if you have the trade paperback, against the mass market paperback).

It'd probably be a different page if the books are different, or even if the font size/paper size is different. Hell, even line spacing/word spacing puts it on another page.

I only need the page number to identify context. I have both the mass market and trade paperback copies. Knowing approximately when it happened would be good enough.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
I've only just finished the dream sequence bit myself in False Gods, and I can pretty easily rationalize how Horus was corrupted. In fact, it shows a good deal more refinement than the usual mustache-twirling villians I've come to expect; he has a few fears, frustrations and weaknesses. They're not significant individually, but you can see it all weighing on him in the leadup to this; frustrating with bureaucrats, separation from the Emperor, wounded pride over not being trusted with whatever it is the big E is up to on Terra, fear of obsolescence and so on.

I can easily rationalise it and connect the dots. I just don't think it was done the best, that's all.

My question - Angron, wtf? Obviously psychotic, refuses to have the butcher's nails removed despite the technology being available, yet emperor happily sends him on his way to chop up anyone who looks at him the wrong way.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
My question - Angron, wtf? Obviously psychotic, refuses to have the butcher's nails removed despite the technology being available, yet emperor happily sends him on his way to chop up anyone who looks at him the wrong way.

A few things here:
Angron is actually just as intelligent as the other Primarchs, the Nails just prevent him from thinking rationally most of the time (and his condition was getting worse - he has strategic discussions with Kharn when they first meet but can barely hold a conversation by the time he transforms). He had arguably the most traumatic upbringing of all the Primarchs and then was dragged away from the only people he ever bonded with and watch them die, which is part of the reason he didn't want the Nails removed. However its pretty clearly stated that the Emperor (and support staf) tried to work out a way to remove them but couldn't work out a way to do it without killing him or leaving him braindead. As for why the Emperor sent him off to kill things, its fairly well established now that the Emperor was so focused on the big picture and his end game that his people management skills went out the window. He created Marines to unify humanity through force, and for this the World Eaters/Angron did the job in a pretty similar way to the Wolves or Night Lords.

Just some thoughts on the Primarchs in general. The best description I have heard for them is to think of them as socially awkward teenagers. Remember that despite their huge physical bulk, impressive raw intelligence and various other abilities they aren't that old - they grew to full size within a few years. This means they skipped a huge chunk of important development that a normal human child would have, which essentially makes them children or teenagers in terms of their social or emotional development.

This means they skipped a huge chunk of important development that a normal human child would have, which essentially makes them children or teenagers in terms of their social or emotional development.

QFT.

Remember, the stories that involve the Primarchs are primarily intended to appeal to the the Ages 12-16 range of sci-fi fans. "Common Wisdom" states that this age group doesn't handle the stories of deeper human consciousness well (despite having to read exactly those sorts of books in high school).

Powerguy wrote:

A few things here:
Angron is actually just as intelligent as the other Primarchs, the Nails just prevent him from thinking rationally most of the time (and his condition was getting worse - he has strategic discussions with Kharn when they first meet but can barely hold a conversation by the time he transforms). He had arguably the most traumatic upbringing of all the Primarchs and then was dragged away from the only people he ever bonded with and watch them die, which is part of the reason he didn't want the Nails removed. However its pretty clearly stated that the Emperor (and support staf) tried to work out a way to remove them but couldn't work out a way to do it without killing him or leaving him braindead. As for why the Emperor sent him off to kill things, its fairly well established now that the Emperor was so focused on the big picture and his end game that his people management skills went out the window. He created Marines to unify humanity through force, and for this the World Eaters/Angron did the job in a pretty similar way to the Wolves or Night Lords.

In False Gods [I think it's False Gods, listened to that, Prospero Burns and 1k Sons in a pretty short space of time] it states that there was the technology to fix Angron but he opted not to take it. Surely he should have been forced? That may have been retconned later in the book where Lorgar tries to 'fix' him. Also, in terms of poor people management skills, we're talking about the Emperor, the most powerful psyker in the universe and essentially a god. For him not to be able to realise that angry Angron was completely broken and needed to be put down makes for pretty unbelievable stuff. I agree with you about Curze, he makes just as little sense, although Russ and the Wolves seem to have a warrior code that makes it conceivable they could still be useful to the Emp.

 Psienesis wrote:

This means they skipped a huge chunk of important development that a normal human child would have, which essentially makes them children or teenagers in terms of their social or emotional development.

QFT.

Remember, the stories that involve the Primarchs are primarily intended to appeal to the the Ages 12-16 range of sci-fi fans. "Common Wisdom" states that this age group doesn't handle the stories of deeper human consciousness well (despite having to read exactly those sorts of books in high school).

For the likes of Angron, the Lion, Curze, I would agree with you, as they pretty much bought up themselves with very little human interaction in their early years.

But Guilliman, Dorn, Corax as well I guess, not so much. But then we see this in the way that the Primarchs who had a poorer upbringing sided with Horus, excluding perhaps Fulgrim and possibly Perturabo, who was bought up by the Tyrant of Lochos.

Surely they should have matured past teenagers though, I mean, they were at least 2 hundred years old by the start of the Heresy. Shouldn't they have grown up a bit by then

Gulliman has probably the least traumatic upbringing which is why he is one of the most mature and stable primarchs (which is reflected in his Legion structure and his empire building). He had family which adopted him and was groomed as a commander and heir for a decent length of time rather than being forced into the role.

Dorn is a terrible example, despite his facade of calmness he is a textbook psychopath and one of the most mentally unstable Primarchs around.

Corax had an incredibly rough upbringing like most of the Primarches. He lived as a ghost for his entire childhood while uniting an enslaved population and leading an uprising. Those circumstances don't exactly lend themselves to social and emotional development.

While they were certainly physically older by the time the heresy started they were never in a 'normal' situation and were repeating the same behaviour the entire time (i.e. doing the same stupid stuff and never improving) so their social development was minimal. They never had any extended period of time where they interacted with each other as peers - they were always leading and commanding. Expecting them to behave like a normal human is stupid since neither of those statements are correct.

@tyrannosaurus. There are scenes in later books which focus on the World Eaters specifically, set just after they have picked him up, where they have KO'd Angron against his will (you are correct that he didn't want them removed) and are keeping him sedated while they investigate the Nails and how to remove them. The issue is that the Nails are designed for humans, and their effect on an Primarch is unique - they have a psychic level effect as well as the more basic 'make you angry' effect and the net result was that all the different specialists which look at him (Ad Mech, Librarians etc) agreed that removing them would at best leave Angron brain dead. This is the same book where you find out that the effect of the Nails on Angron is getting worse for the same reason - even in Marines the effect is stable (i.e. it makes you angry, but consistently angry).

The Emperor is not a god and his massive psychic ability doesn't mean he can't be a terrible people person at times. Tbh Angron was the only real Primarch that was a disaster waiting to happen from the moment the Emperor found him, maybe he had some long term plan for him, but it really just looks like he just wanted him as a leader for his shock troops and didn't think about the potential issues at all. Curze had serious multiple personality issues but at least had risen to power and was mentally intact and in control of a planet when the Emperor found him - his issues and latent psychic talents degraded from that point. Russ and the Wolves are always interesting in this discussion, because if you think about it from the Emperor's POV the Wolves were the perfect Legion. They did exactly what he created Space Marines for - they were incredible shock troops, would do exactly what he asked them to do and then do whatever it takes to achieve victory.