Tesla Destructor Vs. Serpent Shield

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**Kangodo**

Crazyterran wrote:
Tesla doesn't work on snap shots, Serpent Shield's range is 12".
Done. Can increase points if desired.

Not really done.. It's:
-Tesla doesn't work on snap shots.
-Provide Necron with a new AA-model to compensate.
-Buff Tesla-Immortals to compensate.

**Crazyterran**

Kangodo wrote:
Crazyterran wrote:
Tesla doesn't work on snap shots, Serpent Shield's range is 12".
Done. Can increase points if desired.
Not really done.. It's:
-Tesla doesn't work on snap shots.
-Provide Necron with a new AA-model to compensate.
-Buff Tesla-Immortals to compensate.

You still have Night Scythes. It just means you have to choose between jinking and shooting without jinking and getting statistically more hits.

You'll probably get a Skyfire weapon for one of your vehicles, if you don't get a new model.

And no, Tesla Immortals don't need a buff when they need a nerf at the moment. You can still shoot normally and get the Tesla ability. Tesla Immortals are currently a no brainer compared to their gauss counterparts, and nerfing them would bring them into line with their other variant.

Tesla needs to get nerfed to not work on snap shots.

**Kangodo**

It's obvious that you don't play them

Necron Immortals are a bad pick and Tesla are about as good as Gauss (which is still bad), that one is purely playstyle and personal preference.
So if you nerf Tesla-immortals, you need to re-buff them with something decent.

**Quickjager**

Look all that should be done at first is a points increase. From there you start tweaking the mechanics behind the items.

**MikeB1973**

I think that a better fix for Tesla would be that the extra hits on 6's should only work if there's more than one model within a certain range of the target when snap firing. It wouldn't work on flyers, but it would work when firing at mass groups. I think that would be more in line with the fluff since it is essentially lightning.

**Poly Ranger**

I think getting rid of snapfiring option is a bad idea. Not being able to shoot if it jinks is ok, but no snapfire means:
No shooting at flyers
No shooting at invis
No shooting when moving more than 6"
No shooting on crew shaken/stunned results...
Thats huge when the shooting when jinking is the real culprit.

**Vaktathi**

krodarklorr wrote:
Alright guys, this is a very similar topic to the numerous going around right now, but I have a bit more of a direct question for conversation. We all, for the most part, agree that the Serpent Shield is obnoxious as it is, but I've been reading over a lot of forums and comments on videos and the like, and people really, and I mean REALLY hate Tesla Destructors. Like, they should be nerfed in the butt, hard. I just don't understand. Yes, I am a Necron player, so I might seem biased, but I want to ask the community.

Which one do you feel is more powerful/obnoxious/OP/cheesy/broken ect ect? I'm legit wanting to gather an overall view of what the community thinks. I would go into depth of comparing the two, but I'd rather see if people are interested in discussing this particular topic, and if so, can delve into it a bit more. So, what armies do you guys play, which one is more annoying to deal with, which should be nerfed, and here's a big one, if it is nerfed, what could it be changed to that would be fair?

The big thing with Tesla Destructors is that they can still fire at absurd effectiveness even on snapshots (effectively averaging BS3 fire), making them overly effective AA and a minimal loss of effectiveness to gain an "always on" 4+ Jink save, and on top of that still get a secondary random effect that can inflict harm on nearby units (which against some armies is largely worthless, while against others is extremely powerful). Basically it sidesteps every mechanic that normally limits weapons and mobility, especially as they're all Twin Linked which just feeds the mechanic more, and are on either flying platforms or AV13 shielded Skimmers.

As others have noted, if they ditched the secondary effect and Tesla didn't add additional hits when snapshotting (or if Destructor's weren't all Twin-Linked), they'd be fine.

**MajorWesJanson**

Every other special weapon effect that takes place on a 6 to hit (like precision shot) does not work when snapfiring. But Tesla does.
"Shock" in the Space Wolf codex is what Tesla is 90% likely to become- extra hits on a 6, but not when snapfiring.

Serpent Shield needs 2 changes- reduce the range to 18" or less, and prevent it benefiting from Laser Lock. It should not get the benefits of being a weapon while avoiding the drawbacks (such as weapon destroyed results)

**vipoid**

Crazyterran wrote:
Tesla doesn't work on snap shots

And Tesla was never taken again.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Crazyterran wrote:
Tesla doesn't work on snap shots, Serpent Shield's range is 12".

Done. Can increase points if desired.

Ok, but only if the barge can get a dedicated AA upgrade to compensate. For another 20 points, naturally.
The immortals get a flamer type weapon to compensate as well. Like, a flamer mode on the carbines. Sort of like sith lightning. It would be cool.

**ZebioLizard2**

vipoid wrote:
Crazyterran wrote:
Tesla doesn't work on snap shots

And Tesla was never taken again.

Considering people took it over Gauss back in 5th, I'm not so sure why that's suddenly the game ender.

**vipoid**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Considering people took it over Gauss back in 5th, I'm not so sure why that's suddenly the game ender.

You mean, back when Rapid Fire could only fire at full distance if it remained stationary?

And, when glancing hits were about as effective as painting 'Down with the man!' on a vehicle?

Yeah, I can't imagine why Tesla was taken over gauss in 5th.

**ZebioLizard2**

vipoid wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Considering people took it over Gauss back in 5th, I'm not so sure why that's suddenly the game ender.

You mean, back when Rapid Fire could only fire at full distance if it remained stationary?

And, when glancing hits were about as effective as painting 'Down with the man!' on a vehicle?

Yeah, I can't imagine why Tesla was taken over gauss in 5th.

It's been a while since I've played 5th

**vipoid**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

It's been a while since I've played 5th

Sorry.

**krodarklorr**

vipoid wrote:
Crazyterran wrote:
Tesla doesn't work on snap shots

And Tesla was never taken again.

Yeah, pretty much. A-barges would die out.

**Crazyterran**

Well, I hope you are ready for your barges to go into storage then, since that's what it's 90% going to be after Space Wolves got their version of the rule.

vipoid wrote:
Crazyterran wrote:
Tesla doesn't work on snap shots

And Tesla was never taken again.

**krodarklorr**

What if, maybe, just maybe, the Tesla rule in general changed? Like, to a whole different rule.

**vipoid**

Crazyterran wrote:
Well, I hope you are ready for your barges to go into storage then, since that's what it's 90% going to be after Space Wolves got their version of the rule.

That's possible, but far from certain. Tesla is a similar but different rule to Shock, and there's no real reason to think they'll be merged.

I mean, if they were planning that, it seems like they would have just made 'Shock' a core rule and then added an errata to the Necron book, such that Tesla weapons replace their effects with the 'Shock' special rule.

**krodarklorr**

vipoid wrote:
Crazyterran wrote:
Well, I hope you are ready for your barges to go into storage then, since that's what it's 90% going to be after Space Wolves got their version of the rule.

That's possible, but far from certain. Tesla is a similar but different rule to Shock, and there's no real reason to think they'll be merged.

I mean, if they were planning that, it seems like they would have just made 'Shock' a core rule and then added an errata to the Necron book, such that Tesla weapons replace their effects with the 'Shock' special rule.

That....is actually a very good point. That seems like something they would have done. Or just FAQed it so not work on snap shots.

**Crazyterran**

krodarklorr wrote:
vipoid wrote:
Crazyterran wrote:
Well, I hope you are ready for your barges to go into storage then, since that's what it's 90% going to be after Space Wolves got their version of the rule.

That's possible, but far from certain. Tesla is a similar but different rule to Shock, and there's no real reason to think they'll be merged.

I mean, if they were planning that, it seems like they would have just made 'Shock' a core rule and then added an errata to the Necron book, such that Tesla weapons replace their effects with the 'Shock' special rule.

That....is actually a very good point. That seems like something they would have done. Or just FAQed it so not work on snap shots.

Theres a few rules they've changed from Codex to Codex without changing the FAQ. Or added and taken them away. They aren't going to change rules in a FAQ or Errata unless it completely breaks the game. I'm not saying Tesla completely breaks the game, but it does require a nerf.

It'd be like asking 'Why didn't they change Power from Pain in the DE Codex in a FAQ?' or 'Why haven't they FAQ'd Tzeentch casters?' or 'Why didn't they change Aegis in a FAQ for Grey Knights?'. They simply don't really do those things.

That's possible, but far from certain. Tesla is a similar but different rule to Shock, and there's no real reason to think they'll be merged.

I mean, if they were planning that, it seems like they would have just made 'Shock' a core rule and then added an errata to the Necron book, such that Tesla weapons replace their effects with the 'Shock' special rule.

Except Codex: Space Wolves was released after the 7th edition rulebook, and GW both does not update their FAQ/Erratas quickly/at all nor do they tend to go back into codices and change them before their rulebook is coming out. Especially when it is on the production line. Space Wolves are the only codex to have a similiar rule to it. Gerantius has the Eldar ability to run and shoot, why didn't they just give him battle focus, then?

Every codex has gotten some form of Ground to Air defense. Even if it's been awful like Flakk Missiles on Dark Angel Devastators, or great like a Stalker from C:SM. I'm sure Necrons will get some form of it on their Barges, or an upgrade for Immortals to have 'Complex Necron Augments that let them have Skyfire if they choose for that turn.'

**vipoid**

Crazyterran wrote:
Every codex has gotten some form of Ground to Air defense. Even if it's been awful like Flakk Missiles on ~~Dark Angel Devastators,~~ Anything.

Just a little correction there.

Also, what ground-to-air defences did DE get? I can't even see any anti-vehicle weapons with TL or multiple shots, let alone weapons with Skyfire. So, I'm very curious as to what they got in this regard.

Crazyterran wrote:
I'm sure Necrons will get some form of it on their Barges, or an upgrade for Immortals to have 'Complex Necron Augments that let them have Skyfire if they choose for that turn.'

Yes, I'm sure GW will handle anti-flyer weapons competently... just like they took their time and carefully integrated flyers into the game.

**Crazyterran**

vipoid wrote:
Crazyterran wrote:
Every codex has gotten some form of Ground to Air defense. Even if it's been awful like Flakk Missiles on ~~Dark Angel Devastators,~~ Anything.

Just a little correction there.

Also, what ground-to-air defences did DE get? I can't even see any anti-vehicle weapons with TL or multiple shots, let alone weapons with Skyfire. So, I'm very curious as to what they got in this regard.

Crazyterran wrote:
I'm sure Necrons will get some form of it on their Barges, or an upgrade for Immortals to have 'Complex Necron Augments that let them have Skyfire if they choose for that turn.'

Yes, I'm sure GW will handle anti-flyer weapons competently... just like they took their time and carefully integrated flyers into the game.

Honestly haven't skimmed through DE yet, but the fact that they got nothing Ground-to-Air is kind of surprising. Then again, kind of not so much, since stationary, dedicated anti-flyer defense isn't really their shtick. And they have other planes for on-the-move anti-flyer defense...

**vipoid**

Crazyterran wrote:

Honestly haven't skimmed through DE yet, but the fact that they got nothing Ground-to-Air is kind of surprising. Then again, kind of not so much, since stationary, dedicated anti-flyer defense isn't really their shtick.

Perhaps GW will decide that ground-to-air defence isn't Necron's shtick either.

Crazyterran wrote:
And they have other planes for on-the-move anti-flyer defense...

Let's celebrate! I'll crack open a bottle of cyanide.

**Vaktathi**

To be fair, it's not like most of the actual AA weapons in the game are particularly amazing, especially after they mutilated the Hydra. Flakk missiles are expensive and limited in availability, Hunter/Stalker tanks aren't exactly auto-includes, etc.

The best AA is still another flyer in most cases.

**Kangodo**

That is mostly because the average AA-gun is useless if your opponent has no fliers.
That makes the Barge a nice unit, because it's always useful.

Tesla-snapshotting allows for five things:
1. AA.
2. Overwatch for Immortals
3. Jinking and still firing a decent amount of shots.
4. Moving at cruising speed and still shooting well.
5. Shooting exceptionally well at Invisible units.

The only one of those that needs a nerf is #3, the other ones should remain at least on the same level if you want to increase the AB cost.

**vipoid**

Vaktathi wrote:
To be fair, it's not like most of the actual AA weapons in the game are particularly amazing, especially after they mutilated the Hydra. Flakk missiles are expensive and limited in availability, Hunter/Stalker tanks aren't exactly auto-includes, etc.

The best AA is still another flyer in most cases.

Kangodo wrote:
That is mostly because the average AA-gun is useless if your opponent has no fliers.

Which is poor game design. Snapshots is an awful mechanic - especially when applied to an entire class of vehicles.

Also, why is speed represented by snapshots when it comes to fliers, whilst everything else gets a cover save for moving fast?

Anyway, with regard to Flakk missiles, I don't understand why missile launchers couldn't just come standard with them. I mean, it's not like missile launchers are good weapons at the moment, so this would have been a nice boost. But, no, of course not.

**Poly Ranger**

Kangodo wrote:
That is mostly because the average AA-gun is useless if your opponent has no fliers.
That makes the Barge a nice unit, because it's always useful.

Tesla-snapshotting allows for five things:
1. AA.
2. Overwatch for Immortals
3. Jinking and still firing a decent amount of shots.
4. Moving at cruising speed and still shooting well.
5. Shooting exceptionally well at Invisible units.

The only one of those that needs a nerf is #3, the other ones should remain at least on the same level if you want to increase the AB cost.

In complete agreement with this. #3 is an issue because the cron player gets to have their cake and eat it (I never got that saying - what use is a cake if not eaten?), if points go up then only #3 should be effected, otherwise it becomes overcosted not undercosted. In other words 'if firing a tesla weapon from a vehicle which has jinked, rolls of 6's do not generate extra shots'. Increase by 25pts. Boom. Done.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and nightscythe = 40 or 50pt increase.

**Kangodo**

I like the figure of speech.
It shows that once you eat the cake, you no longer have a cake.
So you can either own one, or you can eat one. But not both at the same time!
Which is exactly how this works: Either a point-increase, or the snapshot-change.
Both is just stupid since it would make the thing overcosted.

In Dutch we call it 'kiezen of delen', which is translated as "pick or split" from the custom where one side splits the cake in two and the other gets to pick the part he wants.

**Poly Ranger**

Kangodo wrote:
I like the figure of speech.
It shows that once you eat the cake, you no longer have a cake.
So you can either own one, or you can eat one. But not both at the same time!
Which is exactly how this works: Either a point-increase, or the snapshot-change.
Both is just stupid since it would make the thing overcosted.

In Dutch we call it 'kiezen of delen', which is translated as "pick or split" from the custom where one side splits the cake in two and the other gets to pick the part he wants.

Yep - back when I was a student that was the best way of dividing a meal with a flatmate, never had a saying for it though - kiezen of delen... thank you, I may use that phrase in the future!

**vipoid**

On the off-chance anyone actually cares, the reason 'have your cake and eat it' sounds weird is because it's backwards.

The phrase is supposed to be 'eat your cake and still have it' or 'eat your cake and have it too'.