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Alright guys, this is a very similar topic to the numerous going around right now, but I have a bit more of a direct question for conversation. We all, for the most part, agree that the Serpent Shield is obnoxious as it is, but I've been reading over a lot of forums and comments on videos and the like, and people really, and I mean REALLY hate Tesla Destructors. Like, they should be nerfed in the butt, hard. I just don't understand. Yes, I am a Necron player, so I might seem biased, but I want to ask the community.

Which one do you feel is more powerful/obnoxious/OP/cheesy/broken ect ect? I'm legit wanting to gather an overall view of what the community thinks. I would go into depth of comparing the two, but I'd rather see if people are interested in discussing this particular topic, and if so, can delve into it a bit more. So, what armies do you guys play, which one is more annoying to deal with, which should be nerfed, and here's a big one, if it is nerfed, what could it be changed to that would be fair?

I dont have a problem with the weapon, I have a problem with dirt cheap quantum shielded annie barges (should be at least 120 points) and croissants (should be 50 points costlier)

As for the Wave Serpent - its shield range should be reduced to 12" and its price should go up by 25 points.

Problems fixed.

 Sir Arun wrote:
I dont have a problem with the weapon, I have a problem with dirt cheap quantum shielded annie barges (should be at least 120 points) and croissants (should be 50 points costlier)

I was seeing A-barges being about 110 points, and Night Scythes being around 135. But most people's "arguments", if you can call them that, is the fact that they should get more expensive AND nerf tesla to not work on Snap Shots. That would render A-barges completely not worth taking, not because they don't work the same anymore, but because the cost is not worth their damage output.

I hate the quantum shielding on the Platform. I have no problem with glasscanons, but I take offence when heavy weapons "disguise" themselves as being potentially fragile, like the Annihilation Barge (and to an extent the Wave Serpent but atleast it isn't actually cheap, even if it's considered undercosted), even though they are actually infuriatingly hard to kill.

 Zewrath wrote:
I hate the quantum shielding on the Platform. I have no problem with glasscanons, but I take offence when heavy weapons "disguise" themselves as being potentially fragile, like the Annihilation Barge (and to an extent the Wave Serpent but atleast it isn't actually cheap, even if it's considered undercosted), even though they are actually infuriatingly hard to kill.

Well, imagine this. They become just as hard to kill as they are now, but if they Jink, they're firepower is greatly reduced. Like, to the point of "Well, that's not even gonna hurt anything" status. Would that change anything? Is it just the fact that's it's AV13?

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:
I hate the quantum shielding on the Platform. I have no problem with glasscanons, but I take offence when heavy weapons "disguise" themselves as being potentially fragile, like the Annihilation Barge (and to an extent the Wave Serpent but atleast it isn't actually cheap, even if it's considered undercosted), even though they are actually infuriatingly hard to kill.

Well, imagine this. They become just as hard to kill as they are now, but if they Jink, they're firepower is greatly reduced. Like, to the point of "Well, that's not even gonna hurt anything" status. Would that change anything? Is it just the fact that's it's AV13?

No, I'm sorry for not going in depth .

The Land Speeder can be justified costing 50 points base and up to 75-80 points and have great speed and very good firepower, because it's fragile as hell. The Barge annoys me because it goes (to an extent) on the same premise, but the truth is that you will have to dedicate the same amount of firepower to kill a predator, except it can jink AND it can still have a decent damage output. I'm okay with that, what I am NOT okay with is that it isn't paying its points for doing so. It is in fact so cheap that it's spammable and doesn't gimp your list, because they aren't soaking points. It doesn't help that the Necrons HS section doesn't really have other good choices, except for perhaps the Doom Scythe.

 Zewrath wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:
I hate the quantum shielding on the Platform. I have no problem with glasscanons, but I take offence when heavy weapons "disguise" themselves as being potentially fragile, like the Annihilation Barge (and to an extent the Wave Serpent but atleast it isn't actually cheap, even if it's considered undercosted), even though they are actually infuriatingly hard to kill.

Well, imagine this. They become just as hard to kill as they are now, but if they Jink, they're firepower is greatly reduced. Like, to the point of "Well, that's not even gonna hurt anything" status. Would that change anything? Is it just the fact that's it's AV13?

No, I'm sorry for not going in depth .

The Land Speeder can be justified costing 50 points base and up to 75-80 points and have great speed and very good firepower, because it's fragile as hell. The Barge annoys me because it goes (to an extent) on the same premise, but the truth is that you will have to dedicate the same amount of firepower to kill a predator, except it can jink AND it can still have a decent damage output. I'm okay with that, what I am NOT okay with is that it isn't paying its points for doing so. It is in fact so cheap that it's spammable and doesn't gimp your list, because they aren't soaking points. It doesn't help that the Necrons HS section doesn't really have other good choices, except for perhaps the Doom Scythe.

Well, the Barge isn't supposed to be fast though. It is, like all Necron's, slow and tough. But yeah, not sure what GW was thinking when they priced it at 90 points. It should at least be 110+. But, I'll only be okay with that, if they don't change Tesla. Because I also think they HS section has very few really good choices. The Doom Scythe is one I do enjoy using, though.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Well, the Barge isn't supposed to be fast though. It is, like all Necron's, slow and tough. But yeah, not sure what GW was thinking when they priced it at 90 points. It should at least be 110+. But, I'll only be okay with that, if they don't change Tesla. Because I also think they HS section has very few really good choices. The Doom Scythe is one I do enjoy using, though.

I suspect that much of the problem also lies within the fact that Necrons were designed for 6th edition. AV 13, with glancing meta and a more punishing vehicle damage chart, combined with the fact that jink was a 5+ cover save. The changes to 7th radically changed their powerlevel and the Barge simply goes from being undercosted, to criminally cheap.

As for the topic of Tesla Destructor. I'm fine with it; it's a mechanic that's rather situational (the arcing) and my only complaint is the platforms that fires them isn't paying their correct costs.

I find myself hating the Serpent Shield much more - especially with regard to the platform it's on. For one, it ignores cover, meaning it's effectively a death-sentence for virtually any DE vehicle. For two it has an absolutely absurd range. You'd think a shield would be a short-ranged weapon, yet it has about twice the range of the serpent's other weapons. Oh, and it can also be laser-locked so that it becomes twin-linked.

And then, it has the option of not being fired, and instead making the serpent obnoxiously difficult to kill - what's worse it that this doesn't even cripple the Serpent's firepower, because it can still put out about 7 S6 shots at BS4.

Finally, the thing isn't even a tank - it's a sodding transport.


With regard to the Annihilation Barge, I think cost (and possibly Quantum Shielding) are the main problems, rather than the gun itself. The gun is certainly good, but then if it wasn't there'd be little point taking the thing - since it can't mass fire with sponsons or the like.


But, one thing that annoys me is that I just don't think Skimmers should be more durable than tracked tanks. I mean, it just seems like skimmers should have to give up *something* in exchange for their increased manoeuvrability. As it is, it seems like most skimmers are actually more durable. Aside from DE ones, most skimmer transports are AV12-13 on the front and sides, whilst tracked transports are AV11-12 - and many don't even maintain their AV on the sides (with both the Chimera and Taurox dropping to AV10). And, of course, they also have Jink. Even with it's downside, it's an option that tracked vehicles simply don't have.

So, then it's mainly the cost of the weapon platform, not the weapon itself that you guys in particular have a problem against? Because I've heard that no one actually likes the gun itself, but when compared to most other HS options out there (Or dedicated transport options, cough cough), it just seems a bit lackluster. At least in my opinion.

Anni Barges probably just need a points increase to make them less irritating to deal with. 120 would bring them a little more in line with other stuff of similar power.

As for Serpent Shield, if it is going to remain at the price it is at, it should be reduced in size and be one time use only. Otherwise it should have one of those two things and a pretty sizeable price increase (minimum 20 pts increase).

Heck I would be happy if the Serpent Shield was actually a WEAPON. You know, the kind of weapon that can be knocked out by weapon destroyed. But alas, it's wargear.

But on the topic of Annibarges, I don't think that it's terribly overpowered, especially when compared to other stuff in other codices HS sections. I'm pretty sure it's going to lose its ability to get 3 hits on 6's while snap firing in the new codex. Which would pretty much bring it in line with its cost. It's far behind Serpents in firepower and utility so it should not be in that ballpark costwise.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:
I hate the quantum shielding on the Platform. I have no problem with glasscanons, but I take offence when heavy weapons "disguise" themselves as being potentially fragile, like the Annihilation Barge (and to an extent the Wave Serpent but atleast it isn't actually cheap, even if it's considered undercosted), even though they are actually infuriatingly hard to kill.

Well, imagine this. They become just as hard to kill as they are now, but if they Jink, they're firepower is greatly reduced. Like, to the point of "Well, that's not even gonna hurt anything" status. Would that change anything? Is it just the fact that's it's AV13?

I am no sure what you are implying here. Are you saying making it jink nerfs it? Because that is a buff. Not firing at full strength for a turn verse dying is a no brainer especially when the weapon is already twin-linked.

The only problem with the Barge is that it is a little under costed. And maybe the Tesla Destructor should cost a few points to make it compete better with the Gauss Cannon. Quantum shielding is really annoying, but it eventually goes away. Where as the serpent shield last forever.

 krodarklorr wrote:
So, then it's mainly the cost of the weapon platform, not the weapon itself that you guys in particular have a problem against? Because I've heard that no one actually likes the gun itself, but when compared to most other HS options out there (Or dedicated transport options, cough cough), it just seems a bit lackluster. At least in my opinion.

I think some people find the idea of a gun that fires 4 shots and averages 5-6 hits inherently annoying.

That aside, it seems a pretty reasonable all-rounder weapon - especially for vehicles that only really have one weapon.

 Zewrath wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Well, the Barge isn't supposed to be fast though. It is, like all Necron's, slow and tough. But yeah, not sure what GW was thinking when they priced it at 90 points. It should at least be 110+. But, I'll only be okay with that, if they don't change Tesla. Because I also think they HS section has very few really good choices. The Doom Scythe is one I do enjoy using, though.

I suspect that much of the problem also lies within the fact that Necrons were designed for 6th edition. AV 13, with glancing meta and a more punishing vehicle damage chart, combined with the fact that jink was a 5+ cover save. The changes to 7th radically changed their powerlevel and the Barge simply goes from being undercosted, to criminally cheap.

As for the topic of Tesla Destructor. I'm fine with it; it's a mechanic that's rather situational (the arcing) and my only complaint is the platforms that fires them isn't paying their correct costs.

That's actually a misconception. If necrons were designed for 6th ed, then Phaeron wouldn't be useless.
What did happen is that 6th ed introduced changes that just happened to benefit necrons the most.

But yes, barges are undercosted. It's a pretty glaring example of poor internal balance; why take any of the other options, when you can just go nuts with barges?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
So, then it's mainly the cost of the weapon platform, not the weapon itself that you guys in particular have a problem against? Because I've heard that no one actually likes the gun itself, but when compared to most other HS options out there (Or dedicated transport options, cough cough), it just seems a bit lackluster. At least in my opinion.

I think some people find the idea of a gun that fires 4 shots and averages 5-6 hits inherently annoying.

That aside, it seems a pretty reasonable all-rounder weapon - especially for vehicles that only really have one weapon.

Balanced by the fact that it's short range and has no AP.
The additional AoE ability is a bit much though imo. It doesn't really do anything either :/

I have a hard time believing its on the same level as the Serpent Shield.

(That said, the Serpent really is a tank as well as a transport. That's how Eldar fight. The 7 s6 ap5/6 shots at 24" seems right, assuming the Shield can't/isn't shooting.)

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
I dont have a problem with the weapon, I have a problem with dirt cheap quantum shielded annie barges (should be at least 120 points) and croissants (should be 50 points costlier)

I was seeing A-barges being about 110 points, and Night Scythes being around 135. But most people's "arguments", if you can call them that, is the fact that they should get more expensive AND nerf tesla to not work on Snap Shots. That would render A-barges completely not worth taking, not because they don't work the same anymore, but because the cost is not worth their damage output.

A Dakka Predator out of Codex: CSM is 95 points. It...

1) Is not a skimmer, so can't get that juicy 4+ jink save.
2) Isn't twin-linked.
3) Has crappier weapons.
4) Has crappy side armor.

All of those upgrades are worth about 30 points. 125 would be fair for Annihilation Barges at the current power level.


Scythes need a 50 point nerf at least. One of the best weapons in the game and the only flier that doesn't kill its passengers when it dies? It's wayyyy undercosted at present.


Comparing it to the Serpent Shield isn't really fair...Serpent Shield needs to be a 6-8" Nova that you can fire ONCE and it's gone.

I've always imagined that Barges would be best at 120 points.
Fliers I am hoping at 125 points, the "passengers do not die" is strong but most of the time it are only 5 warriors and perhaps a Cryptek. Keeping those 'alive' is not really worth that many points.
And I said 'alive' because they'd have to walk on the board and aren't worth that much.
Perhaps they could turn the 'immunity' into an upgrade for 25 points?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

That's actually a misconception. If necrons were designed for 6th ed, then Phaeron wouldn't be useless.
What did happen is that 6th ed introduced changes that just happened to benefit necrons the most.

But yes, barges are undercosted. It's a pretty glaring example of poor internal balance; why take any of the other options, when you can just go nuts with barges?

Forgive me, but I think it's a misconception that GW wouldn't design anything that is nearly useless, regardless of the edition.
I find it implausible that the Necrons weren't designed with 6th edition in mind, especially given their gauss rules, flyers and the special rules on how said flyers can disembark their troops, which was an even bigger deal than it was in 5th.

Edit: and of course their close release date to 6th edition BRB

 Zewrath wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

That's actually a misconception. If necrons were designed for 6th ed, then Phaeron wouldn't be useless.
What did happen is that 6th ed introduced changes that just happened to benefit necrons the most.

But yes, barges are undercosted. It's a pretty glaring example of poor internal balance; why take any of the other options, when you can just go nuts with barges?

Forgive me, but I think it's a misconception that GW wouldn't design anything that is nearly useless, regardless of the edition.
I find it implausible that the Necrons weren't designed with 6th edition in mind, especially given their gauss rules, flyers and the special rules on how said flyers can disembark their troops, which was an even bigger deal than it was in 5th.

Edit: and of course their close release date to 6th edition BRB

Gauss was from 3rd ed. It was pretty much the same. Except back then glances can 1 shot kill vehicles, and it could hurt MCs.
It could be that they came up with the idea for flyer units mid-5th ed, but couldn't just shove the rules in the game. So they came up with super-sonic skimmers to "pave the way" for the flyer rules they planned for in 6th ed.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

That's actually a misconception. If necrons were designed for 6th ed, then Phaeron wouldn't be useless.
What did happen is that 6th ed introduced changes that just happened to benefit necrons the most.

But yes, barges are undercosted. It's a pretty glaring example of poor internal balance; why take any of the other options, when you can just go nuts with barges?

Forgive me, but I think it's a misconception that GW wouldn't design anything that is nearly useless, regardless of the edition.
I find it implausible that the Necrons weren't designed with 6th edition in mind, especially given their gauss rules, flyers and the special rules on how said flyers can disembark their troops, which was an even bigger deal than it was in 5th.

Edit: and of course their close release date to 6th edition BRB

Gauss was from 3rd ed. It was pretty much the same. Except back then glances can 1 shot kill vehicles, and it could hurt MCs.
It could be that they came up with the idea for flyer units mid-5th ed, but couldn't just shove the rules in the game. So they came up with super-sonic skimmers to "pave the way" for the flyer rules they planned for in 6th ed.

I hope they bring back the "Always wound on a 6" rule gauss use to have...

As everyone says tesla destructors are fine - its just the cost of their platforms that need increasing. +25 pts for the anni barge and +40/50 for the night scythe. Another issue with the nightscythe is its delivery mechanism and the fact that its 'occupants' will never die when it's shot down. Hence the +40/50 not +25.
This is coming from somebody who owns 5 anni barges and 2 night scythes.

Poly Ranger wrote:

This is coming from somebody who owns 5 anni barges and 2 night scythes.

Well geez, that seems a bit backwards to me. >.<

 krodarklorr wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

That's actually a misconception. If necrons were designed for 6th ed, then Phaeron wouldn't be useless.
What did happen is that 6th ed introduced changes that just happened to benefit necrons the most.

But yes, barges are undercosted. It's a pretty glaring example of poor internal balance; why take any of the other options, when you can just go nuts with barges?

Forgive me, but I think it's a misconception that GW wouldn't design anything that is nearly useless, regardless of the edition.
I find it implausible that the Necrons weren't designed with 6th edition in mind, especially given their gauss rules, flyers and the special rules on how said flyers can disembark their troops, which was an even bigger deal than it was in 5th.

Edit: and of course their close release date to 6th edition BRB

Gauss was from 3rd ed. It was pretty much the same. Except back then glances can 1 shot kill vehicles, and it could hurt MCs.
It could be that they came up with the idea for flyer units mid-5th ed, but couldn't just shove the rules in the game. So they came up with super-sonic skimmers to "pave the way" for the flyer rules they planned for in 6th ed.

I hope they bring back the "Always wound on a 6" rule gauss use to have...

We have MSS now. It all balances out

 krodarklorr wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

This is coming from somebody who owns 5 anni barges and 2 night scythes.

Well geez, that seems a bit backwards to me. >.<

I have 4k+ points of necrons - they total less than 17% of the points of my total force.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My collection also includes a monolith, 12 destroyers, flayed ones, 3 c'tan shards, no ghost arks, only 1 unit of wraiths, only 1 overlord on ccb (although I can easily switch the destructors for overlords)... so nobody can accuse me of power gaming.

Poly Ranger wrote:
As everyone says tesla destructors are fine - its just the cost of their platforms that need increasing. +25 pts for the anni barge and +40/50 for the night scythe. Another issue with the nightscythe is its delivery mechanism and the fact that its 'occupants' will never die when it's shot down. Hence the +40/50 not +25.
This is coming from somebody who owns 5 anni barges and 2 night scythes.

This seems fair. I can get behind 115 point barges and 150 point NS.
All of the other HS choices need buffs though. I want my monolith to feel awesome again. It's getting depressed

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
As everyone says tesla destructors are fine - its just the cost of their platforms that need increasing. +25 pts for the anni barge and +40/50 for the night scythe. Another issue with the nightscythe is its delivery mechanism and the fact that its 'occupants' will never die when it's shot down. Hence the +40/50 not +25.
This is coming from somebody who owns 5 anni barges and 2 night scythes.

This seems fair. I can get behind 115 point barges and 150 point NS.
All of the other HS choices need buffs though. I want my monolith to feel awesome again. It's getting depressed

Defo - the monolith is as overpriced as the anni barge is underpriced. The 'reverse ark' (its name elludes me it's that bad and it doesn't deserve the effort of me going upstairs to get the codex), is poor on everything short of a massive apocolypse board. Spyders are worth their points though.
I also think destroyers need sorting out - seriously fragile for their points and everything else in our FA is awsome (don't really know about the bikes as I never take them) that I feel bad whenever I take them.
The problem is that people don't like it when we mention our poorer units since we have masses of good stuff. But they do need addressing - purely for internal balance purposes.

I think destroyers just need another wound. They are too big and their max squad size is too small for just 1W per model. Usually the units that have 5 max have some extra wounds to compensate.

I agree - another wound would be perfect. The other problem with the squad is no ablative wounds. No taking off a non-special first. An extra wound would sort them out.

Tesla doesn't work on snap shots, Serpent Shield's range is 12".

Done. Can increase points if desired.