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So between orks and tyranids which codex is having more problems in general gameplay ?

I hear people say they both have the low end of the xenos codex releases. I like both army's ideally because they seem to be the only ones with their heads on straight (never hear an ork or tyranid complaining about heresy here or chaos there) and their playing styles are interesting. Can anyone tell me how their supposedly bad in this edition or more correctly what makes them bad compared to other xenos codex's if there are some issues ?

Also can some one tell me where this business about kanz, dreads, orka-nauts-cybork and the mob rule being poor comes from and if every viable tyranid list really has to involve flying hive tyrant spam like people claim ?

Orks are actually rather good, their new book is pretty nice IMHO. They aren't as "point-and-shoot-I-win" as more top-tier armies, but still good.

Tyranids struggle a bit more, but I've had good success with them, even playing things most people wouldn't think twice about not taking. Though I would still admit Orks are in a better place than nids.

Yeah, OP, I didn't think Orks had any real issues. They've got a strong nitch in that mid-level army range. And seems as though for every gimmick taken away (KFF balloon of doom), one got added. Featuring new units and new cheeky fun.

Orks are better simply because they have the variety still open to them. Tyranids HAVE to take a certain build to win consistently. And that build isn't in the codex. It's in a variety, not even just one, Dataslate.

Tyranids have to have a Flying Tyrant because the army is assault based. Back in the day where Tyranids were the only ones capable of running because of Fleet of Claw and there were no flyers or Ignores Cover options, the Nids could absolutely run across the board and stab things or, in the case of the Carnifex, rip open tanks like wet paper. The Tyrant with a Venom Cannon was queen of the roost with a S8 Blast (Venom Cannon was S+2 back then) that could be put over a pesky missile launcher and that missile launcher would die, not the front rank guys. This isn't the case anymore

Now a Flyrant is needed to cross the board and hit the things that will hurt the swarm. And is the ONLY actual answer to fliers. I still run a walking 3rd Edition Tyrant, and will be making a Tyrant Node around her because I like the model, but since Synapse is the main target and 3+ save (used to be able to be improved to 2+...) is easy to ignore, a pair of Plasma Guns can spell doom to a 200pt model that serves as the main focal point of the army. So for 240pts a Flyrant gives Mobility, Destructive output (12 S6 shots twin-linked) and survivability (needs 6s to hit or Skyfire). It's literally the only 'modern' decent unit outside of Forge World. Everything else in the codex is outclassed by a Tau Crisis suit.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Orks are better simply because they have the variety still open to them. Tyranids HAVE to take a certain build to win consistently. And that build isn't in the codex. It's in a variety, not even just one, Dataslate.

Tyranids have to have a Flying Tyrant because the army is assault based. Back in the day where Tyranids were the only ones capable of running because of Fleet of Claw and there were no flyers or Ignores Cover options, the Nids could absolutely run across the board and stab things or, in the case of the Carnifex, rip open tanks like wet paper. The Tyrant with a Venom Cannon was queen of the roost with a S8 Blast (Venom Cannon was S+2 back then) that could be put over a pesky missile launcher and that missile launcher would die, not the front rank guys. This isn't the case anymore

Now a Flyrant is needed to cross the board and hit the things that will hurt the swarm. And is the ONLY actual answer to fliers. I still run a walking 3rd Edition Tyrant, and will be making a Tyrant Node around her because I like the model, but since Synapse is the main target and 3+ save (used to be able to be improved to 2+...) is easy to ignore, a pair of Plasma Guns can spell doom to a 200pt model that serves as the main focal point of the army. So for 240pts a Flyrant gives Mobility, Destructive output (12 S6 shots twin-linked) and survivability (needs 6s to hit or Skyfire). It's literally the only 'modern' decent unit outside of Forge World. Everything else in the codex is outclassed by a Tau Crisis suit.

Well, first off, Tyranids have more usable options, and I've won many games to prove it. But that aside, they have other options for anti-air. Hive Crones are a very good option.

You take things only from the codex? No formations and consistently win against well built armies such as experience Tau and Eldar Players? I would love to see your list then because nothing has been working when I try it and I'm fresh out of ideas.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
You take things only from the codex? No formations and consistently win against well built armies such as experience Tau and Eldar Players? I would love to see your list then because nothing has been working when I try it and I'm fresh out of ideas.

I do frequently use the Living Artillery Node, but not always. And my lists vary depending on what I feel like playing at that time. But I've used Tyrannofexes, Trygon Primes, Warriors, Tyranid Primes, Hive Guard, the Swarmlord, and non-dakka equipped Carnifexes with great success. Heck, half the time I give my Hive Tyrant something other than two dakka guns. And I've beaten Tau, Orks, Space Marines, Blood Angels, CSM, and AM. Heck, the last game I played, I used Genestealers, Deathleaper, Rippers, and Shrikes. And won.

But, it all depends on what I feel like playing at the time, as I find playing the same thing, and lots of it, gets boring.

Honestly, the only objectively "bad" codexes are Blood Angels Dark Angels and Sisters-the ones who don't have a SINGLE list that can hack it and stand a chance against the top tier.

Then after that you have mono-list dexes. Codexes with only one REALLY good strategy in 'em that works good enough to fight the truly overpowered face rollers. That'd be Grey Knights, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Chaos Marines. The only reason they're below mid tier is because you can reasonably guess what you're gonna see, and if they surprise you most of their surprises are sub par and not that scary. Chaos marines have it best here because their surprise can be allied daemons.

Then the solid mid tier. Some super good lists, but then a solid set of balanced options to keep your opponent guessing. Space Marines, Wolves, Orks, Necrons, and Guard all fit the bill here.

Then there's the armies that posess a couple units that are so truly absurd that an army that would be a solid mid tier many list army artificially BECOMES mono-list...but unlike the others, this one list is hard to deal with even if you see it coming a mile away, and that sucks. Tau Eldar Daemons, everyone knows these.

Not sure about that, DA ravenwing bike armies are fairly competitive in my experience.
And I still believe a raven/death wing list can do well although havent had the chance to play one yet.

Cant comment on sisters/BAs.

 Ratius wrote:
Not sure about that, DA ravenwing bike armies are fairly competitive in my experience.
And I still believe a raven/death wing list can do well although havent had the chance to play one yet.

Cant comment on sisters/BAs.

Sisters have the best MSU army IMHO, just a ridiculous amount of flamer templates and meltaguns. They're so under-represented though that it's hard to properly place them. I'd put them in mid-to-upper tier though personally, although they do lack options. In spite of that though, there are a couple builds in the 'Dex which are viable.

BA suck. Their only chance right now against a decent list is AV13 spam with MSU, because their troops cost way too much and have too little damage output.

DA are like C:SM -1 from what I've seen. They can do alright, but C:SM outclasses them in most regards.

Orks are fine as long as you don't fight eldar or tau.

That's good enough for me.

The only real problem the orks have that is tough to get around is mob rule. GW really needs to fix that.
Making 10 dice rolls for each morale test slows things down.

CYBORK wrote:
The only real problem the orks have that is tough to get around is mob rule. GW really needs to fix that.
Making 10 dice rolls for each morale test slows things down.

How exactly do you throw 10 dice every test?

Orks have a great codex. It has lots of potent builds and basically, there's not a single broken build discovered yet. One of the best codexes atm.

 Zewrath wrote:

CYBORK wrote:
The only real problem the orks have that is tough to get around is mob rule. GW really needs to fix that.
Making 10 dice rolls for each morale test slows things down.

How exactly do you throw 10 dice every test?

1. Roll morale
2. Re-roll morale with Bellowing Tyrant
3. Roll mob rule
4. Re-roll mob rule with boss pole
5. Roll hits
6-11. Roll to-wound
12-17. Randomize wound allocation
18-23. Roll saves
24-29. Roll FNP

That's worst case (unless a HQ with da Lukky Stick gets hit), of course, but you get the picture.

The fun really starts when your vehicle exploded and you have to roll pinning and morale on top of randomizing explosion hits. When your opponent sighs of relieve whenever you pass a LD7 test, something is very, very wrong

while randomizing explosion hits is easy with different color dice, randomising mob rule hits is more tricky cause it doesn't hit everyone. That's exactly the case why Greentide has a special rule that the player allocates himself. And summary execution either.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

CYBORK wrote:
The only real problem the orks have that is tough to get around is mob rule. GW really needs to fix that.
Making 10 dice rolls for each morale test slows things down.

How exactly do you throw 10 dice every test?

1. Roll morale
2. Re-roll morale with Bellowing Tyrant
3. Roll mob rule
4. Re-roll mob rule with boss pole
5. Roll hits
6-11. Roll to-wound
12-17. Randomize wound allocation
18-23. Roll saves
24-29. Roll FNP

That's worst case (unless a HQ with da Lukky Stick gets hit), of course, but you get the picture.

The fun really starts when your vehicle exploded and you have to roll pinning and morale on top of randomizing explosion hits. When your opponent sighs of relieve whenever you pass a LD7 test, something is very, very wrong

I see. I still think you should change your wording to "up to" 10 dice rolls. Statically speaking, you really shouldn't be failing your morale checks by that much, especially with bellowing tyrant. Although I do sympathize with your annoyance with the system and especially the random wound allocation.

 Zewrath wrote:

I see. I still think you should change your wording to "up to" 10 dice rolls. Statically speaking, you really shouldn't be failing your morale checks by that much, especially with bellowing tyrant. Although I do sympathize with your annoyance with the system and especially the random wound allocation.

Orkses are ld7 armywide. Except for warbosses (ld9), big meks and zag(ld8). So, we fail morale quite occasionally. Jidmah ain't making it up. It slows the game quite considerably when you have to somehow randomly allocate 3 wounds on a 20 strong squad with boyz, 2 specials, nob, boss, mek, painboss...

Throw 3 dice at the squad and remove the three models most damaged?

 Zewrath wrote:
I see. I still think you should change your wording to "up to" 10 dice rolls. Statically speaking, you really shouldn't be failing your morale checks by that much, especially with bellowing tyrant. Although I do sympathize with your annoyance with the system and especially the random wound allocation.

Can't change CYBORK's wording

When you fail a moral test, 10 is pretty much the average since rolling your usual three hits already causes you to roll a minimum of nine dice. In a freak-accident you might even fail mob rule and fall back 2d6 into dangerous terrain. No rule, under no circumstances should cause you to roll that many dice for so little effect.

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Can anyone tell me how their supposedly bad in this edition or more correctly what makes them bad compared to other xenos codex's if there are some issues ?

Also can some one tell me where this business about kanz, dreads, orka-nauts-cybork and the mob rule being poor comes from and if every viable tyranid list really has to involve flying hive tyrant spam like people claim ?

I don't play Orks so I'll stick to answering on Nids only. Nids are a historically an assault army that now is forced to play shooty this edition which puts them on a worse footing than say Eldar, Dark Eldar and Tau. A lot of units in the codex are slow, have poor armor saves and lack assault grenades and this trio is a big no no this edition. Over-watch, cover ignoring weapons, charging in to cover punish these units severly. MC are mainly used as gun platforms and are really not that good in cc anymore. The removal of droppods has crippled the mobility of the army imo.

Second problem is the lack of ranged anti tank weaponry outside of FW units. The army can deal with two to three tanks but doesn't have an answer to mech lists.

If this wasn't enough challenge, the main flavor ability of the army 'synapse', which makes everything fearless, is not a free bonus like chapter tactics, IG orders, battle focus and power from pain. Synapse creatures are needed to keep control of your army and this constraints the number of builds considerably as there are only a handful of decent synapse options.

Thanks to two formations and a few FW units the army is still competitive, but the codex itself suffers from very poor internal balance.

Flying Hive Tyrants don't have to be spammed but 1 is pretty much an auto include as it's vastly better than the other HQ choices. A second and third are often chosen as well as it's the most versatile unit in the codex.

 koooaei wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

I see. I still think you should change your wording to "up to" 10 dice rolls. Statically speaking, you really shouldn't be failing your morale checks by that much, especially with bellowing tyrant. Although I do sympathize with your annoyance with the system and especially the random wound allocation.

Orkses are ld7 armywide. Except for warbosses (ld9), big meks and zag(ld8). So, we fail morale quite occasionally. Jidmah ain't making it up. It slows the game quite considerably when you have to somehow randomly allocate 3 wounds on a 20 strong squad with boyz, 2 specials, nob, boss, mek, painboss...

I see. Although you won't hear me say that the mob rule solution was executed properly, I do still think it's fair to point out that Orks wasn't meant to be fearless without a tax. The old fearless mechanic made sense on Orks, because if they lost combat, they were forced to remove models in return of being fearless and near unbreakable. Orks was never designed to work the way fearless made them work in 6th edition.

 Zewrath wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

I see. I still think you should change your wording to "up to" 10 dice rolls. Statically speaking, you really shouldn't be failing your morale checks by that much, especially with bellowing tyrant. Although I do sympathize with your annoyance with the system and especially the random wound allocation.

Orkses are ld7 armywide. Except for warbosses (ld9), big meks and zag(ld8). So, we fail morale quite occasionally. Jidmah ain't making it up. It slows the game quite considerably when you have to somehow randomly allocate 3 wounds on a 20 strong squad with boyz, 2 specials, nob, boss, mek, painboss...

I see. Although you won't hear me say that the mob rule solution was executed properly, I do still think it's fair to point out that Orks wasn't meant to be fearless without a tax. The old fearless mechanic made sense on Orks, because if they lost combat, they were forced to remove models in return of being fearless and near unbreakable. Orks was never designed to work the way fearless made them work in 6th edition.

Their pseudo-fearless from 6th was fine, it just meant that your opponent was actually required to spend some resources on dealing with large mobs of orks. I mean, it's not like they were tough to remove with their t-shirt save. Small mobs of orks got more out of their Boss Pole than they did from Mob Rule.

7th's change *cough*nerf*cough* to Mob Rule was made worse by the massive nerf to the Boss Pole. Heck, a single sniper shot could (under pretty harsh circumstances and rolls) kill a handful of orks under the new rules between the actual wound, the pinning check, and possibly further cause a morale check (which may kill more orks). Reroll LD checks >>>>>> reroll Mob Rule.

 streamdragon wrote:

Their pseudo-fearless from 6th was fine, it just meant that your opponent was actually required to spend some resources on dealing with large mobs of orks. I mean, it's not like they were tough to remove with their t-shirt save. Small mobs of orks got more out of their Boss Pole than they did from Mob Rule.

7th's change *cough*nerf*cough* to Mob Rule was made worse by the massive nerf to the Boss Pole. Heck, a single sniper shot could (under pretty harsh circumstances and rolls) kill a handful of orks under the new rules between the actual wound, the pinning check, and possibly further cause a morale check (which may kill more orks). Reroll LD checks >>>>>> reroll Mob Rule.

Except that snipers aren't pinning, nor is barrage anymore, so some of your worst enemies have been stripped of the rule that would endanger your mob. I don't see how I would spend less time and resources to kill a giant mob of T4 models with possible additions of FNP than before. I am willing to accept the claim that mob rule is a rule that's guilty of consuming time. I am not, however, willing to accept the claim that an average dice roll of 3,5 hits -> 1,75 wounds ~ 1-2 dead (depending on FNP and lucky saves) for the benefit of not breaking, is something that somehow GREATLY reduces your Ork mobs survivability.

I actually find new mob rule fine. Except for random wound allocation. That's a pain.

You'll find that Flyrants are a massive crutch for the Tyranids and losing them all usually means losing the game. They only really have one build to stay competitive and it's not in the Codex itself.

Orks have at least two builds...that alone should tell you which Codex is better.