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M13- Even removing the shrinkage.. it's the cost of the models. They could look identical to the renders and it'd still be too high. You're at GW price points for a kickstarter.
To put it in perspective..
Your models are higher than most limited availability Studio McVey models.
Higher than Prodoss models that are comparable.
You're roughly in the ballpark of Kingdom Death.
You're 3-4x higher than Hasslefree metals and about 1.5x higher than their resins.

I like the general concepts you're showing but there's several of us that you'll never get as customers with that kind of pricing. If we assume that the prices go up once this hits retail then the costing is even worse. For an unproven entity to ask this sort of price is just bonkers IMO.

The prices are close to Infinity's, though, which is what this is most often compared to. My only concern is the quality of the prints / casts (the local casting expert here, Wehrkind, who is also on Dakka, mentioned the same thing about the shiny casts looking a bit off). It sounds like that's being addressed... but for low model count resin, this is pretty normal. You mentioned their being in the ballpark of Kingdom Death, and I would also say Arena Rex - this is the market they're aiming for, and it's a viable one... you just have to have fantastic quality to do so.

I really don't want to dig at the project too much because as I've said since the beginning I love the concept and I don't want to be too harsh to someone who's only just started. But even calling it close to Infinity prices is exaggerating, those are less than 10 euros a figure direct from the manufacturer, and lets face it who's paying full retail these days. These prices pretty much double out the price most people pay per single infinity mini and that is at 'kickstarter prices'. Clearly however there are enough people who disagree as it's well over the funding goal.

MLaw wrote:M13- Even removing the shrinkage.. it's the cost of the models. They could look identical to the renders and it'd still be too high. You're at GW price points for a kickstarter.
To put it in perspective..
Your models are higher than most limited availability Studio McVey models.
Higher than Prodoss models that are comparable.
You're roughly in the ballpark of Kingdom Death.
You're 3-4x higher than Hasslefree metals and about 1.5x higher than their resins.

I like the general concepts you're showing but there's several of us that you'll never get as customers with that kind of pricing. If we assume that the prices go up once this hits retail then the costing is even worse. For an unproven entity to ask this sort of price is just bonkers IMO.

I get what your saying but being compared to companies that have artists, sculptors and painters on staff is unfair. Prodoss have their own Envisontec printer!. These companies can pass those savings on to the customer. I have none of those skills and have to outsource. Plus those companies can sell high volume, I can't. Yes I could lower my prices but would the extra customers I'd gain be numerous enough to cover the extra shipping, packaging and labor I'd need, maybe but as a new company probably not. As it stands, I'm happy starting small and growing, I hope to reach a point where you and the others feel it's worth trying out my products
.
I admit the pictures are doing the models a disservice but i feel confident that once people start getting, painting and reviewing them, over the next year, that that the price will be justified.
Thanks for mentioning Prodoss, I had a look at their site, I never knew they had a whole sculpting and printing service.

To Backers-The KS exclusives are now available to get without having to pledge the higher Delta level.

I just want Frontline and Maybe. What's the best way to pledge for that?

 Dentry wrote:
I just want Frontline and Maybe. What's the best way to pledge for that?

The best way is to pick the Alpha 2 level pledge and change the amount to the total cost + shipping, so that would be €35 total.

I echo M13's comments on pricing. Outsourcing incurs extra costs that a lone designer just cannot afford to absorb into their own costs.

Not only that, most of the super cheap kickstarters you see end up having a variety of problems, many of which end up asking for more money, even starting new kickstarters before their original is fulfilled. Often times, many of the delays from kickstarters are due to not having the funds to speed production (such as hiring multiple sculptors or casters).

Oh, and fix the link in your signature M13.

 Vertrucio wrote:
I echo M13's comments on pricing. Outsourcing incurs extra costs that a lone designer just cannot afford to absorb into their own costs.

Not only that, most of the super cheap kickstarters you see end up having a variety of problems, many of which end up asking for more money, even starting new kickstarters before their original is fulfilled. Often times, many of the delays from kickstarters are due to not having the funds to speed production (such as hiring multiple sculptors or casters).

Oh, and fix the link in your signature M13.

Thanks, the signature is fixed

we have reached the next SG and double unlock. Added 'Maybe' free to delta levels and higher.

Kickstarter page.

It's been a week since we launched, with another week left and it has very much been a roller coaster journey. I'd like thank everyone that has backed so far, you're fantastic, your support means a lot and has helped motivate me during the last few days, during the plateau. We still have a ways to go to unlock Tuesday and so I ask you all again to spread the word and share the campaign, even if you've already done so, as I know some people will have missed it last time. If your waiting for payday to pledge remember that no funds are taken form your account until the very end of the project and having the total pledged number rise is a positive boost to everyone. Lets try and reach €9k this weekend.

I have decided to unlock Tuesday early. You can find out why in the new update(link below) This means that everything has been unlocked and is now available from the optional extra section.
kck.st/1wgNTlG

Awesome! The art for Tuesday is really sweet, glad to see she's making it in!

Randomly spam messaging people on Facebook is not going to win you any friends. You have officially become the first tabletop wargaming telemarketer. Congratulations.

EDIT: If it's unclear.. M13 randomly sent me a message via facebook. I imagine I'm not the only one.

 Miniature13 wrote:
I get what your saying but being compared to companies that have artists, sculptors and painters on staff is unfair. Prodoss have their own Envisontec printer!. These companies can pass those savings on to the customer. I have none of those skills and have to outsource. Plus those companies can sell high volume, I can't. Yes I could lower my prices but would the extra customers I'd gain be numerous enough to cover the extra shipping, packaging and labor I'd need, maybe but as a new company probably not.

 Vertrucio wrote:
Outsourcing incurs extra costs that a lone designer just cannot afford to absorb into their own costs.

Not only that, most of the super cheap kickstarters you see end up having a variety of problems, many of which end up asking for more money, even starting new kickstarters before their original is fulfilled. Often times, many of the delays from kickstarters are due to not having the funds to speed production (such as hiring multiple sculptors or casters).

That is the whole point of Kickstarter. The Kickstarter initial "Fund Level" as well as Stretch Goals should include costs for outsourcing your artist, sculptors and 3D printing... none of that should be translating to a higher 'retail' cost of your product. Just because a company has a staff and isn't outsourcing, doesn't mean this creates a savings that is passed on to a customer. Often that means their costs are actually higher than a smaller company because they are paying them, even when they don't actively have something they are producing or working on.

For example if your target is starting with 3 miniatures, then your fund level is supposed to be including costs for your artists, sculptors and printing. The actual costs of the miniatures should be your production costs which is molds, casting material and possibly labor for the casting (unless you are eating part of that cost as part of getting product out there).

Kickstarters needing more money are Kickstarters that were just poorly planned. They fell for the 'perception' of setting a low fund cost, then trying to ramp up through Add-On and Stretch Goals to get what they really needed. In reality their funding and goals should be what they really need, not undercutting themselves. Many KS just want to be successful so they under estimate or talk themselves into thinking they can make those costs back up by being successful and others don't properly add a buffer into their estimates.

 Dark Severance wrote:

 Miniature13 wrote:
I get what your saying but being compared to companies that have artists, sculptors and painters on staff is unfair. Prodoss have their own Envisontec printer!. These companies can pass those savings on to the customer. I have none of those skills and have to outsource. Plus those companies can sell high volume, I can't. Yes I could lower my prices but would the extra customers I'd gain be numerous enough to cover the extra shipping, packaging and labor I'd need, maybe but as a new company probably not.

 Vertrucio wrote:
Outsourcing incurs extra costs that a lone designer just cannot afford to absorb into their own costs.

Not only that, most of the super cheap kickstarters you see end up having a variety of problems, many of which end up asking for more money, even starting new kickstarters before their original is fulfilled. Often times, many of the delays from kickstarters are due to not having the funds to speed production (such as hiring multiple sculptors or casters).

That is the whole point of Kickstarter. The Kickstarter initial "Fund Level" as well as Stretch Goals should include costs for outsourcing your artist, sculptors and 3D printing... none of that should be translating to a higher 'retail' cost of your product. Just because a company has a staff and isn't outsourcing, doesn't mean this creates a savings that is passed on to a customer. Often that means their costs are actually higher than a smaller company because they are paying them, even when they don't actively have something they are producing or working on.

For example if your target is starting with 3 miniatures, then your fund level is supposed to be including costs for your artists, sculptors and printing. The actual costs of the miniatures should be your production costs which is molds, casting material and possibly labor for the casting (unless you are eating part of that cost as part of getting product out there).

Kickstarters needing more money are Kickstarters that were just poorly planned. They fell for the 'perception' of setting a low fund cost, then trying to ramp up through Add-On and Stretch Goals to get what they really needed. In reality their funding and goals should be what they really need, not undercutting themselves. Many KS just want to be successful so they under estimate or talk themselves into thinking they can make those costs back up by being successful and others don't properly add a buffer into their estimates.

Exalted. I wonder what woulda happened if this had been a runaway hit.. I honestly don't think this guy has done any homework on volume sales, distribution, production leadtime or any of the things that end up being the actual problem. Yeah, molding, artists, etc are all part of the cost.. I keep hearing "the big guys" blah blah blah.. Reaper used KS 3x AFAIK and that was to legitimately fund Bones, GW has never touched it, CMoN (are they one of the big guys?) uses it all the time for a lot of purposes (yeah including pre-sale type stuff IMO).. but who else is one of these big guys? Mantic? Yeah they're growing very fast but most of that has been BECAUSE of Kickstarter. Let's not get the chicken and egg thing confused here. Who else? AFAIK, there aren't really that many other "big" miniatures companies. Board Games? Yeah.. maybe.. but that's about it.
Anyway.. I was originally just put off by the pricing on this.. and was going to casually observe.. the mentality behind the company though has put me off of them completely.

So, that means you're agreeing with the higher average cost of the miniatures in this kickstarter, or just disagreeing with what you perceive is the attitude behind the decision?

Because these last two posts don't seem to make sense in a critical way.

You say that you should include the costs for outsourcing into the funding for a KS. So, he did, thus the cost per miniature is higher. So what's the problem here? Is it because he did exactly what you were saying, and is saying it openly?

Reaper is one of the big guys, you may not realize this, but they could have afforded to make Bones on their own, maybe not as big, but it would have come out regardless. It was just a risk they didn't want to take out of their own pockets.

CMON is also pretty big, they started with pretty deep cash reserves coming from several other previous businesses. Same for Mantic, which is also decently big, no company that puts out plastic is small. Those companies you describe all could have afforded to start production without a kickstarter, however, the kickstarter mainly provided early income so that the risk to them was lower, shunting the risk off to the kickstarter backers.

This happens all the time, you see companies much bigger than this, who have their own private funding use kickstarter for extra funds and reduce their own risks, even helping them keep their IP or more shares of their company, instead of having to trade that away for startup funding from banks or other investors.

Kickstarter is not really the place to judge what's big or not. I think Kickstarter really succeeded in skewing what people think of as big or small business.

Moreover, I think we can reasonably define something as small when it is literally one man paying out of pocket for everything. Heck, I'm in the same boat and I have the benefit of being able to do most of my own sculpting and writing.

 MLaw wrote:
Randomly spam messaging people on Facebook is not going to win you any friends. You have officially become the first tabletop wargaming telemarketer. Congratulations.

EDIT: If it's unclear.. M13 randomly sent me a message via facebook. I imagine I'm not the only one.

Well since you (and I) have chosen to follow them it's not unreasonable for them to send a single message on subject you might well be interested in (multiple messages would be a pain though)

I think he should include those things but I don't think he's realistically done the homework to accurately include what he's discussing. I also think that if he set the price points lower, he'd move more merchandise and cover the expenses by units sold. If it were bargain bin prices, yeah.. that'd be dumb. However, lowering the price to within a margin that seems rational in contrast to other companies, he would have had my business for at least 2 miniatures. I'm sure there are others who agree. Let's say he would've pulled in twice the sales but maybe having taken in 25% less per unit than his current. He would still be out ahead, and after covering the overhead it would really just be about resin, packaging, and distribution for costs. Instead, his higher price point is driving down sales. He's tripping over dollars to pick up pennies.
The other thing is, bigger companies can get away with presaling.. or promising the moon.. or charging a premium price.. all of those things come with a reputation which these guys don't have. All we have for M13 is some renders, some fairly soft-detailed previews, and IMO a bad opinion of potential backers.
I'm going to bow out of the conversation. I've said everything I can constructively say about these guys, my opinion on the situation, and my thoughts on them sending me unsolicited messages on Facebook. For those of you backing.. I'm sorry to be that guy... I know it sucks.. please go back to enjoying the campaign. I do sincerely hope it works out well for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

 MLaw wrote:
Randomly spam messaging people on Facebook is not going to win you any friends. You have officially become the first tabletop wargaming telemarketer. Congratulations.

EDIT: If it's unclear.. M13 randomly sent me a message via facebook. I imagine I'm not the only one.

Well since you (and I) have chosen to follow them it's not unreasonable for them to send a single message on subject you might well be interested in (multiple messages would be a pain though)

Yeah, I'm fixing that problem right now :/

Eh, if it was a direct message, I can understand the anger.

However, it could also be borne of inexperience and different expectations, rather than malice or casual disregard for netiquette.

Facebook messages are generally considered private and personal by many, but not all. Its use has opened up more as more Groups use it, and sometimes they want to communicate outside of posts, so they use direct messaging between members.

Non-personal messaging should be confined to just posting on the facebook page. Which should be enough.

It's strange world where we consider something like facebook a place where we only receive messages from those closest to us.

Edit: MLaw, do you do resin casting? I have two local friends who do or have done casting, and I've seen what it takes to cast including the production facility, and the actual process. Resin casting is time and labor intensive. Even with the best equipment, it eats up more than you would think. One of those friends will no longer do casting because of that, another is actively in business, and I plan to use his services, at a cost.

Resin, and metal, have higher costs to produce per miniature, and the molds can wear out quickly requiring more molds to be made, so producing more at lower costs can end up costing more. The resin used is also more expensive. This isn't restic or injection plastic where, after the initial cost, you're paying a tiny amount for material and less wear on the molds.

I recently received a production primer from another caster outlining these facts.

 Vertrucio wrote:
So, that means you're agreeing with the higher average cost of the miniatures in this kickstarter, or just disagreeing with what you perceive is the attitude behind the decision?

I agree that the costs per miniature are above average cost and higher than what they should be at, which also limits the amount of backers it can reach. I disagree with the explanation of the reasons behind why those costs are higher than average.

 Vertrucio wrote:
You say that you should include the costs for outsourcing into the funding for a KS. So, he did, thus the cost per miniature is higher. So what's the problem here? Is it because he did exactly what you were saying, and is saying it openly?

That is just it, the costs for outsourcing effect the initial "Fund Goal" and shouldn't be effecting the miniature cost making it higher.

Disclaimer: This is for a simplified example. Let's say that costs for 3 miniatures are something like, Concept Art $600, Sculpting $1200, 3D Master Prints $450, Misc $750. The fund goal should be $3000 at the very least, that covers all their initial costs for miniatures. Although I would probably have it include costs for 4-5 miniatures, instead of an initial 3 that way you cover costs for the first couple Stretch Goals. Additional Stretch Goals numbers should be based on the initial costs plus a small cushion for unexpected twists. At this point we haven't even looked at a per miniature cost nor should these effect per miniature costs because it paid for everything already.

Now we have to determine what you want your actual retail price to be. Try to keep in mind how you plan to distribute this if on your own website, amazon or trying to get distributors because those factors will effect overall cost. If you plan to go through retailers then usually they are going to want to their profit margin. If they buy it from you for $14, they will normally plan to sell it at $28. The only way to get those costs down are obviously done through bulk and lowering your own margins that you make. In an ideal situation you would want to do the same thing. If the costs for making the miniature (molds, resin and labor) costs $4 per miniature, then you would be selling it at the very least to a distributor/retailer for $8, the retailer sells it for $16. You obviously make a bigger margin selling directly from your website, since you cut out middleman, than you would from someone buying it from a LGS/retailer.

To make it easy for the example, we'll say you want to retail them at $16. For a resin miniature, costs for making a 2 piece silicone mold are roughly $50-100 depending on what silicone you use. It will usually last for 40-60 casts before starting to deteriorate (dependent on silicone, resin and method of casting). The resin itself is overall is inexpensive, well estimate a simple base $100. On average though the cost for a 32mm resin miniature is $2-4. In the above example it would end up being about $4 per miniature, making 50 miniatures.

We'll say we want to have better prices than retail but at the same time we do want to make a little money from this, so we'll set a KS individual sale price of $10-12, we'll say $12 for individual miniature but $10 for group pricing. That means in order to fund my $3000 fund goal, I need at least 250 backers at $12, or 100 backers at my $30 group package of 3 (not including shipping).

At that point the KS is funded, any new miniatures added on pay for themselves. There are no more costs other than the cost to manufacturer them because the R&D costs were paid for as part of the funding. Now the next Stretch Goal would normally be based on what the costs to create the next "item" be, so Art $200, Sculpting $400, Master Print $150. If you want to include it as a free SG then you'll need to add a buffer, accounting for at least the initial 100 backers you would be expecting (100 x $5) and make the SG $1250. You could make it $1000 and eat some costs, picking up individual pickups.

I'm not saying that is what they should have done or what was done in this case. For the record I am backing because I do like supporting smaller companies and projects like this. However I am backing a minimal level than I probably would have because the miniatures costs are higher than average. I'm just demonstrating how the "Fund Goal" shouldn't effect the individual cost of a miniature (so the talk of outsourcing is irrelevant)... at least on Kickstarter.

 Vertrucio wrote:
Kickstarter is not really the place to judge what's big or not. I think Kickstarter really succeeded in skewing what people think of as big or small business.

I would have to agree with this. Not to mention I think there are legitimate marketing reasons behind small and medium companies using Kickstarter. It is less risky and easier to establish an initial player-base than starting out cold in the market. Not to mention successful or not, you have feedback from potential customers which help plan and market future projects.

Done a lot of resin casting.

Very tedious, very expensive very time consuming. Molds don't last long either, particularly if the have undercuts.

That's why Studio mcvey, Kingdom Death, Arena Rex and M13 sell theirs at such a high cost. The name attached to it as little to do with them selling at the prices they do.

Resin casting is laborious. Even when kingdom death first started out they were high priced. This kickstarter could use some tweaks. I expect a discount vs. regular retail but I don't expect to pay metal cast prices for resin casts.

One one suggestions is the rearrangement of pledges. Think you could get more people in at lower cost sweet spot (with fewer minis, of course).

UPDATE -The Miniature13 KS has entered it final 6 hours. I f you haven't had a chance to check it out do so now!
Kicktarter LINK

Less than an hour now, and almost to 8K! Very excited about this one

Awww damn, I was wanting to see if they had any sculpts of Frontline and Maybe before committing.

Oh well, will have to jump on another Aussie's order if I want to get them.

Missed it by an hour. Shame, I could have seen one of those minis making a great Hawkeye (if I used it for parts,) and another making a Eris Morn.

Probably for the best though, I am waiting to see how my first KS goes.

Hope all turns out well.

I expected a few more backers than there were.

Perhaps next time.

I managed to sneak in towards the end to snag an Overseer.

You guys can have all your girls with guns, I'll take the trenchcoat lizard any day of the week.

I look forward to giving it a disappointing and inadequate paint job!

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
You guys can have all your girls with guns, I'll take the trenchcoat lizard any day of the week.

Now you are just looking for things to say that gets people to respond with "Highlords gonna Highlord" pics

.
..
...
... possibly?

I do like seeing more alien races though. Unfortunately it seems reptiles are always stuck in the stone age when it comes to tabletop games.

It's also a bit larger than the other figures, so it's easier to paint in my giant potato fingers.

Surprised this didn't get moved to Dakka Discussions when the KS ended.