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I have to say, the orks did do a lot of damage.

Orks ALWAYS do a lot of damage.

The 4th edition book didn't imply orks won either. It maintains that they took territory, which isn't countered by the Farsight fluff, nor is the Farsight fluff that reliable as a FINAL source given the exceptionally tilted (intentionally - propaganda) narration.

At any rate, to have a tau victory at great cost against a minor waagh isn't exactly a glowing exhibition of Tau supremacy.

Keep in mind size. a WAAAGH that is minor to the imperium can be huge to to the tau empire. It all has to do with proportion. The fact the the tau empire was able to beat an enimy of that scale says something. The tau empire are barely a footnote, but on equal sizings, they are one of the greatest powers.

I will repeat myself. The only way the tau empire can have a greater role in the galaxy is if a MAJOR calamity hits the imperium, allowing the TE to claim undefended planets on a vast scale, and then a long time to build their own army up to fit their territory.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Keep in mind size. a WAAAGH that is minor to the imperium can be huge to to the tau empire. It all has to do with proportion. .

This is kind of the point though, one which "some people" just don't seem to get. The Tau have never had a real threat show up to oppose them. They've survived a couple of minor Waaaaghs, a small Necron revival, an undermanned Imperial Crusade which was called off to go fight Nids, and a miniscule hive-fleet which was crippled due to its own hyper evolutionary tendencies. All of these have scared the living feth out of them, and several have required outside intervention for them to survive (Nids required the help of Dark Eldar and Imperium, the Imperium had to get distracted by a massive tyranid invasion and called off, Necrons weren't interested in taking ALL of the Tau empire, afaik they only wanted one world and the Tau still got help from the Imperium). Yet several posters talk about how the Tau handle threats so much better than the Imperium, that they could oppose the Imperium to a series degree, snuff out threats, and that they're so powerful that Empy himself would want to align himself with them.

Whilst somehow managing to ignore that Tau have been severely harmed, or even feared for the entire empire's existence, against small threats which the Imperium barely even has time to register - and can stop with relative ease.

Your username made me want to hear Morgan Freeman voice a ork warboss. God dammit.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Keep in mind size. a WAAAGH that is minor to the imperium can be huge to to the tau empire. It all has to do with proportion. .

This is kind of the point though, one which "some people" just don't seem to get. The Tau have never had a real threat show up to oppose them. They've survived a couple of minor Waaaaghs, a small Necron revival, an undermanned Imperial Crusade which was called off to go fight Nids, and a miniscule hive-fleet which was crippled due to its own hyper evolutionary tendencies. All of these have scared the living feth out of them, and several have required outside intervention for them to survive (Nids required the help of Dark Eldar and Imperium, the Imperium had to get distracted by a massive tyranid invasion and called off, Necrons weren't interested in taking ALL of the Tau empire, afaik they only wanted one world and the Tau still got help from the Imperium). Yet several posters talk about how the Tau handle threats so much better than the Imperium, that they could oppose the Imperium to a series degree, snuff out threats, and that they're so powerful that Empy himself would want to align himself with them.

Whilst somehow managing to ignore that Tau have been severely harmed, or even feared for the entire empire's existence, against small threats which the Imperium barely even has time to register - and can stop with relative ease.

Well the entire tau empire barley registers . They are the true underdogs of the galaxy.

Although I will say, the tau did have the advantage during the Damocles crusade. And the during the taros campaign the imperium's momentum kind of petered out. They did damage, but they were not big enough to have any hope of completely beating the tau empire. A crusade big enough to completely take out the tau empire would take recorces that are desperately needed elsewhere.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Keep in mind size. a WAAAGH that is minor to the imperium can be huge to to the tau empire. It all has to do with proportion. .

This is kind of the point though, one which "some people" just don't seem to get. The Tau have never had a real threat show up to oppose them. They've survived a couple of minor Waaaaghs, a small Necron revival, an undermanned Imperial Crusade which was called off to go fight Nids, and a miniscule hive-fleet which was crippled due to its own hyper evolutionary tendencies. All of these have scared the living feth out of them, and several have required outside intervention for them to survive (Nids required the help of Dark Eldar and Imperium, the Imperium had to get distracted by a massive tyranid invasion and called off, Necrons weren't interested in taking ALL of the Tau empire, afaik they only wanted one world and the Tau still got help from the Imperium). Yet several posters talk about how the Tau handle threats so much better than the Imperium, that they could oppose the Imperium to a series degree, snuff out threats, and that they're so powerful that Empy himself would want to align himself with them.

Whilst somehow managing to ignore that Tau have been severely harmed, or even feared for the entire empire's existence, against small threats which the Imperium barely even has time to register - and can stop with relative ease.

Well the entire tau empire barley registers . They are the true underdogs of the galaxy.

Although I will say, the tau did have the advantage during the Damocles crusade. And the during the taros campaign the imperium's momentum kind of petered out. They did damage, but they were not big enough to have any hope of completely beating the tau empire. A crusade big enough to completely take out the tau empire would take recorces that are desperately needed elsewhere.

The Damocles Crusade was not given the initial manpower it was promised, nor did it get ANY of the reinforcements that the crusaders were assured they would have.

Despite that, the Imperial forces came within a few miles - perhaps another couple of hours, from obliterating a MASSIVE chunk of Tau military power and bringing a vital Sept World to heel.

That's why talking about how capable the Tau are is silly in the extreme. They only survived an undermanned expedition which got none of the reinforcements it was promised and only a fraction of the initial forces it should have had, entirely because the Tyranids showed up and made it so that the Imperium had bigger fish to fry.

Doing anything in the Imperium requires resources that are desperately needed elsewhere, that's kind of the running theme in 40k. Despite that, should anyone ever decide to actually look at the Tau funny, their empire gets crushed and their race probably wiped out. The Imperium could do it without batting an eye, but the Tau learned not to poke that sleeping giant in the ass and therefor haven't garnered that kind of attention since then.

Except the Imperium will never be in a position where the Tau are the greater threat to be dealt with. At least, not anytime soon.

We can bang on about the obvious mathematics that the Tau would lose against the Imperium, but we can't ignore the other half of that: All the other powers are locked in constant struggle with each other as well, and turning to try to conquer the relatively small Tau Empire would cost too much for anyone to be bothered.

Is that plot armour? Probably. But then, you Imperial fanbhoys have plenty of that of your own, so welcome to 40k I guess.

Same really with humanity during the age of Terra before the psykers and warp technology. The Eldar could have wiped them out any time they wanted to.

That is kind of the point of the Tau in the setting, a reflection of mankind's past. With the other humanoid species we have a complete cycle of galactic civilization. Tau are in spring when the exploration and empire building starts, IoM in summer when the galaxy is conquered (although near the end), Eldar the decline in fall and Necrons the winter, when all is dust.

Well, Necrons are sort of in the Spring once more, with a galaxy only now seeing what they are and with no idea just how powerful the new threat is.

They are still weak though, and not fully awoken. There is still snow on the ground, but the flowers are out (to continue the metaphor).

Why conquer the Tau Empire when the Imperium can use them, without having to actually be friends with the "filthy xenos"? They make a pretty swell buffer against Tyrannids and Orks in the area when push comes to shove.

Hilariously, it's mentioned in some places (Some of the third expansion fluff, for one thing, IIRC. Maybe. I forget exactly where) how the Imperium actually negotiates with the Tau for ceasefires sometimes (the one specifically mentioned was the one that ended the Damocles Crusade, IIRC) but it's always the Imperium that breaks the agreements (there was a "like usual" in there, IIRC). Also hilarious is that there's usually nothing the Tau can do about it when it does (in terms of demanding recompense and payback. They can of course defend themselves decently enough with the help of circumstances if it's an Imperium attack, as well as ninja planets from the Imperium if opportunity arises)

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I will repeat myself. The only way the tau empire can have a greater role in the galaxy is if a MAJOR calamity hits the imperium, allowing the TE to claim undefended planets on a vast scale, and then a long time to build their own army up to fit their territory.

... like Abaddon tearing open the Eye of Terror, like he's getting ready to do with his 13th Black Crusade.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I will repeat myself. The only way the tau empire can have a greater role in the galaxy is if a MAJOR calamity hits the imperium, allowing the TE to claim undefended planets on a vast scale, and then a long time to build their own army up to fit their territory.

... like Abaddon tearing open the Eye of Terror, like he's getting ready to do with his 13th Black Crusade.

Which would be a pretty cool timeline if GW advanced at all.

It would require more than that. It would require a full collapse.

Not necessarily. If the Astronomican is stopped, that would send the imperium into chaos without resulting in a total breakup. Those planets or systems who already want to leave could leave for the most part, but most would stay loyal. Transport and communication would be massively disrupted, allowing all the other forces to swoop in and catch un-defended, and un-aware worlds completely by surprise. The majority of the imperium's forces that remained intact would converge on terra, leaving most worlds ripe for the picking.

Right, but the 13th crusade breaking out isn't itself enough to fragment the entire Imperium, particularly since it is on the opposite side of the galaxy from the Tau.

True, it just depends on how well Abby does.

HE would need to be completely successful, which would signal the end for the Tau as well since it would likely mean a fusion between the real world and chaos!

But yes, the 13th Crusade is one of those potential universe enders for sure.

I wonder, it there any way that the astronomican can be disrupted without taking terra? If it could, that would severely cripple the imp, so chaos would be very interested in ding that.

13th Black Crusade won't make a difference to the Tau.

The resources being drawn to deal with it are not being drawn from eastern sectors of Ultima Segmentum. Potential warp effects would be a problem, but less so out on the Eastern Fringe, I would imagine.

Also, it doesn't succeed in anything like the terms you're talking about. Again, I must refer you to the Commissar Cain novels. Written in-universe in M42 and published later in that millenium, no reference to the Imperium falling on its arse (and no mention of a diminished Tau threat either). I'm sure damage was done, but the Imperium still faces huge threats but is not losing decisively.

Besides, Chaos couldn't get too far for the same reason the Tau can't, other powers would be drawn to it. Necron intervention would be increasingly likely on a grander scale, and the Eldar probably already are throwing all they have at the problem. Nids looking to nom Terra would probably start getting in the way as well, given Leviathan's approach angle.

Caiphas Cain novels aren't canon past the 13th crusade anymore sadly...

And dude, you can't say the Tau would be just passed by, by EVERYONE, its such a cop-out answer. You don't even know if the Tyranids are going for Terra.

The Cain novels aren't canon prior to the 13th BC, either. There isn't a canon... and the Cain novels are almost certainly an in-universe propaganda tool.

I thought it was specifically stated that they were going for the astromican?

It is believed, but by no means is that provable. It's a theory.

It's also a joke... the Astronomican is a giant light, the Tyranids are bugs... Bugs for the Bug Light!

 Psienesis wrote:
The Cain novels aren't canon prior to the 13th BC, either. There isn't a canon... and the Cain novels are almost certainly an in-universe propaganda tool.

Well I didn't know that bit of info either.

well I would say it would move slowly but eventualy the tau would get a empire big enough to rival the imperium
They need to eliminate the smaller threats like the eldar (I mean lets face it they're going down) no offence to eldar players.

The Tau will be Ended long before they get an empire of a size large enough to actually threaten the Imperium. Seriously. It's like Rhode Island trying to take on the US military. Even if Rhode Island manages to take its 5 neighboring states, once the US decides to end that threat, that threat gets ended.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Tau will be Ended long before they get an empire of a size large enough to actually threaten the Imperium. Seriously. It's like Rhode Island trying to take on the US military. Even if Rhode Island manages to take its 5 neighboring states, once the US decides to end that threat, that threat gets ended.

Spoiler:

The Tau are the "young, rising stars" of 40k. No point adding them if they're gonna be eliminated so easily.