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Hey everyone,
Been playing Skaven for quite some time but I've never played a tournament. Not into being to competitive or anything so was wondering what kind of tactics you might use using unconventional Skaven lists.

Rules for the tournament are 2500 points and no special characters. Which kind of rules of my idea of a giant horde of queeks stormvermin.

I was thinking of using double doomwheel, double cannons and double furnaces (each with a level 1) and units of 35 monks.
That leaves only enough points for a battle standard bearer but no doomrocket engineer.

Was thinking of bringing a bell (I never use one) with assassins on each side. I might bring a hellpit but I'm not sure because he is really susceptible to flaming attacks and spells.

Ideas or lists you guys like to use for fun? I just don't want people to think I'm playing a pretty common Skaven list

You could try:

- 15 Stormvermin and Plague Monks. A few of each can lend to a MMU-style list, and gives you a lot of versatility in terms of movement and counter-charges.
Honestly, a lot of people just don't know how to handle a Skaven list like this.
My only suggestion would be trying to get Skitterleap in there, somehow.

- Slave blocks 20-strong. They're cheap enough to use as chaff, bring 10 attacks and 3 static CR to clear away other chaff, and a stupid number of wounds for their cost, making them a really unattractive target for shooting.
...until you run them 1-wide, in front of your main line. Hard cover, all the way.

- 10 Nightrunners with slings (run 5x2, their mini-vanguard and 20 shots isn't actually that bad for 80pts).

- 5 Globadiers with a Bombadier and a Deathglobe is 80pts. People aren't used to seeing these guys, and the template-threat is pretty legit.

- super-small units of Jezzails. With that kind of range, even just a handful of dice are enough to drop a Chaos Knight or shave a wound or two off Monstorus Cavalry and monsters. And when the enemy gets too close, they're viable chaff.

- Censer Bearers! I like 'em 5-8 strong, usually. Maybe with a Chanter, to absorb a challenge from that high-I combat character.

Interesting idea with small units of monks and stormvermin. I'm not sure what kind of purpose they would serve tho other than possible flank charges. The monks would get eaten up pretty quickly in combat.

My area doesn't have very many Skaven players (non so far are going to the tourni that I know of)

I do like the idea of some jezzails maybe two units of 3 wouldn't be to bad. I mean put them in some woods or away from my units so they don't panic everything if they flee.

I've never used globadiers nor have I tried censer bearers (those are the only units I don't have) although I don't think people would be opposed to me using the monks I have modeled with flails as censor bearers.
The thing about globadiers if their range is so short so I'm skeptical but I'm not sure.


Do you think double furnace would be a good idea at 2500 points? Its a pretty big investment and leaves me with no real choices for other heroes other than a bsb.

I'm unsure about cannons these days. People aren't taking foot sloggers as much as they used to. What they're often taking is those magical light cavalry.

I feel like the best rares to take normally is double doomwheel with one abomination.

Furnaces are decent and cannons aren't often there as much but i still feel like you'd need your warlock engineers for warp lightning to deal with light cavalry and other stupid fast shenanigans.

If you want really unconventional you could use rat ogres. They have high strength in melee. Of course if i used them i'd give them skweel so they do that much better. You may want to keep them near the main battleline as their leadership becomes an issue with frenzy and stupidity if all packmasters die.

Jezzails may be a good idea but i'm not sure. I've been wondering about the tower of jezzails list myself as time goes on.

I've been rather curious about globadiers myself again. I didn't see much use last time but perhaps if i can bog down the enemy with bodies they can help kill off the rest.

Really you don't like the cannon? I just maybe get really lucky with how I've been using it but its great for taking down chariots and monstrous infantry d6 wounds is still kinda ridiculous for all cannons.

I actually rarely use engineers with warp lightning as crazy as that might seem lol

I was thinking a unit of 6 rat ogres but not sure if skweel would be allow since he's a named character but not really a hero? Not sure though they are fairly expensive so maybe I'll play around with that idea.

I'm thinking of using more than 1 bunker unit of clanrats to split up the bsb and the general because I normally run them in the same unit but gets a little dangerous putting all my eggs in one basket lol

Double abomination is a possibility for me but I feel like thats pretty much annoying to play against. I never seem to have to much luck with the dang doomwheel but I could try 2 of them not sure if that's to many points tho (if I have double furnaces anyways)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also was thinking of trying the plague claw catapult but I think that's a bad bad baaaad idea. I say that because what S2? That's no good especially when I'll be playing multiple armies and unless its O&G it probably wont be worth it.

Flaming killamajig does raise a valid point. All these elf armies are ultra fast avoidance armies. An abomb and two wheels is a smart choice, as it forces the army into difficult positions. The random move means that they need to be careful, lest that unit of fast cav dies.

The cannon is still good, it just needs more protection than the big two.

I have to ask has anybody seen the assassin with warpstone stars? I've heard some decent things in the way of anti-chariot power but it has some potential. It might even do ok vs fast cavalry in a unit. The problem though is it's just an 8" thrown weapon but 3x multi-shot with each one doing d3 wounds is rather nice against some enemies.

I'm just curious because i find that much of the skaven shooting worth a crap is very, very elite and fragile whereas our massed shooting has lots of bodies but doesn't do much (like slaves with slings).

I'm rather curious about jezzails as avoidance armies would have a problem with it but at the same time those freaking trueflight arrows are just way too annoying vs skaven shooting and elves tend to take small enough ranged units that they won't waste many shots if they shoot at one unit instead of another. Not to mention we don't do enough with gutter runners against any of their fast cavalry whether they get a 4+ or 5+ armor save it's still too good to do much damage against em.

So yeah at the end of the day jezzails may even be good against wood elves but i'm curious if i want em. Slaves with slings might hurt them but it's hard to say. Chances are if the enemy has lots of fast cavalry they have few guys shooting and few numbers and at the end of the day just swamping the board seems to be the only option. Well that and warp lightning (magic missile) spam.

Also if their infantry hide in forests that where the censer bearers come in handy.

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I feel it's rather sad elves have changed the game so much that now we have to worry endlessly about super hard to kill magical cavalry that just won't die or runs away before it can.

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On another note i'm curious about even taking the bell for several reason. Yes i do want the 18" IP bubble but if i take it that means a seer is my general. Even beyond him getting shot by cannons a wizard general isn't a good prospect. What if they have to take a characteristic test. Wizards are normally terrible at those. Not to mention the problem of miscasting. These days i prefer to take an armored warlord as my general. He has more durability and even if he hits combat he has a good chance of surviving. Plus he's infinitely cheaper. As far as the seer goes I tests and 13th spell aren't doing much for me anymore. I might see if cloud of corruption can do some good thing against wood elves but i'm unsure.

A few points:

- MMU-style armies lose a unit here or there, but then are still able to put up a fight. A timely flank-charge can win the day against slightly larger units, and multiple relatively cheap units can go a long ways towards re-directing/whittling down that Deathstar.

- Globadiers are a unit that really need you to pin the enemy down in combat for them to work well.
Censer Bearers are amazing...against anything that goes at the same time or after them.

- people can't replace their infantry with Doomfire Warlocks and the Sisters of Thorn for two reasons.
1. Those units are not Core.
2. Those units only exist in two armies.
And even if they did take a lot of them...so what? The Warp Lightning Cannon can bounce through a flank or lay down a template, reliably hitting most if not all of a small unit of cavalry. It's the ultimate multi-tool; anti-armour, anti-monster, anti-troop. Light Cavalry might be less of an ideal target, but that's only because it's so fragile to begin with.

- I still think that Pestilent Breath and Plague are great spells against T3 elves, regardless of the unit they're in. And the Furnace's weird reverse-template shooting attack is a good way to put a hurt on those Fast Cavalry units as you try to catch them.

- the Abomination is a great model, but he tends to fair really well or really bad; Flaming Attacks flip him from a serious threat to a big bounty of points, waiting to be harvested.

- the Plagueclaw Catapult has a large template. Indirect Fire. Ignores armour saves. Kills ghosts. And auto-panics on 1+ casualty.
It is a good war machine. It's just not as stupidly awesome as the Cannon.

Interesting thought about that assassin. Problem is 8inch range which really sucks. But you could stick him in a small unit of 20 slaves because the enemy wouldn't think about it as a threath until the assassin pops out. Then again that's a big point investment into an assassin.

It would be nice if we could take slings with clanrats. I'd use that a lot if we had that option. Slaves at bs 2 makes it not quite worth it but you can get quite a few shots off.

I haven't been having much success with the 13th either. I do get successful with it sometimes but it only effects infantry and with people brining monstrous infantry and cavalry it is sometimes not worth it.

I'm also finding that at 2500 points I'm normally taking the same thing. Two blocks of slaves, bunker of about 30 clanrats and then a unit of 40 stormvermin. Im not a huge fan of the weapon teams because they always misfire way to much. I do like the rattling gun tho.

Just some numbers for thought:

An Assassin with Warpstone Stars gets 2.5 hits. That's 1.7 wounds against T4, and 3.4 after Multiple Wounds, assuming they've got 5+ or less armour.
The only time he'd be worth it is if he's running around on his own or in a small Gutter Runner unit. Otherwise, he's only going to get to shoot once,

20 Slaves with slings, assuming a -2 to hit, get 3.3 hits, which is 1.7 wounds against T3, and 1.1 after a 5+ save.
Assuming you get to shoot twice, that's 3.4 wounds for 10pts.

10 Nightrunners perform the same, shooting-wise, as 20 Slaves. They're just faster and smaller, and fair a little better in combat.

Two units of 9 Gutter Runners, assuming -2 to hit, get 12 hits, 9 wounds, and 3.7 unsaved after a 6+/4+.

Against fast cavalry, I deploy my Slaves wide and sweep across the field. My main blocks are deployed wide behind them, with my chaff between and in the back field. Random movement is amazing against those units. Deploy the 'wheels and A-bombs right down the center.

Jezzails are basically a waste against anything that isn't T4 and/or has a 3+ save or better. BS3 means you're not getting many hits for your points. Which means you need to have a target where every hit means something. Which means the unit has to be small and/or expensive.

The Bell is solid. And you don't need to make the Seer your General, if you don't want to. You just can't trick them out as much as normal.
Skaven magic has one key advantage over other Lores; your lvl4 can know two #6 spells. That is to say, the Dreaded 13th, and Plague.
And Plague just rips through Elves. It's Dwellers Below, but better against their characters.
Wither is pretty fun too. My last game against the High Elf rodeo involved Wither'ing a Prince off his Star Dragon.

35 monks with a furnace will mash most units.
Doomwheels for pesky fast cavalry and flyers sneaking into your flanks and back line.
Plague catapult has use. That large template can easily cause enough wounds and you do only need one wound to cause a panic test.
Rat ogres give you another hammer.
21 strength 5 attacks in a flank, plus fear and stomp will break many units.
And just use the rat darts to stay in their way to keep the frenzy in check.

 Throt wrote:
Rat ogres give you another hammer.
21 strength 5 attacks in a flank, plus fear and stomp will break many units.

6 Rat Ogres, in the flank, is just barely enough to break the scarier units; the ones you'd actually want to send your Hammer into.
The odds of getting said Rat Ogres (1) in the flank and (2) in sufficient numbers are pretty unlikely in my experience.

They do okay. Just not great. I don't consider them a Hammer. I run small units as anti-chaff and as suicide troops, like Censer Bearers. They don't break the enemy. They just thin their numbers down for my main line.

If you want to run a plague furnace, be sure to take the Plague banner on that unit. It only lasts for one turn but being able to re roll both to hit and to wound is devastating. Especially with such a high amount of attack. If you can manage to get death frenzy off as well? GG

SudzyOne wrote:
If you want to run a plague furnace, be sure to take the Plague banner on that unit. It only lasts for one turn but being able to re roll both to hit and to wound is devastating. Especially with such a high amount of attack. If you can manage to get death frenzy off as well? GG

Well I did end up running the furnace with 35 monks with the plague banner of course. Got off the poisoned attack spell too on it so it was pretty awesome!

Only problem with it was against brettonia and it charged 2 units of 15? Knights of the realm with all his heroes but it held them up for a long time so that's okay.

Take the Plague Banner on Plague Monk blocks, period. It's actually better in a unit without the Furnace, since you're getting more attacks.

And if I had to add any one spell into the combat, it would be Bless With Filth. +1A from Deathfrenzy is nothing compared to Poison attacks on a unit that re-rolls to hit. Assuming WS<7 and T4:

- 30 Plague Monks dish out 50 attacks, 25 hits, and 8.3 wounds before saves.

- with the Plague Banner activated, it turns to 37.5 hits, 20.8 wounds before saves.

- add in Deathfrenzy, it's 60 attacks, 45 hits, 25 wounds before saves.

- swap Deathfrenzy for Bless With Filth, though, and it's 37.5 hits, 12.5 Poison, for 26.4 wounds.

The higher your opponent's Toughness, the better Filth gets.

One of my greatest moments in all of Warhammer involved a successful charge with the Furnace, after activating the Banner and casting Bless With Filth...and then misfiring with the Wrecker...and rolling up another combat phase. On an absurdly massive block of Zombies.

Warpsolution wrote:
Take the Plague Banner on Plague Monk blocks, period. It's actually better in a unit without the Furnace, since you're getting more attacks.

And if I had to add any one spell into the combat, it would be Bless With Filth. +1A from Deathfrenzy is nothing compared to Poison attacks on a unit that re-rolls to hit. Assuming WS<7 and T4:

- 30 Plague Monks dish out 50 attacks, 25 hits, and 8.3 wounds before saves.

- with the Plague Banner activated, it turns to 37.5 hits, 20.8 wounds before saves.

- add in Deathfrenzy, it's 60 attacks, 45 hits, 25 wounds before saves.

- swap Deathfrenzy for Bless With Filth, though, and it's 37.5 hits, 12.5 Poison, for 26.4 wounds.

The higher your opponent's Toughness, the better Filth gets.

One of my greatest moments in all of Warhammer involved a successful charge with the Furnace, after activating the Banner and casting Bless With Filth...and then misfiring with the Wrecker...and rolling up another combat phase. On an absurdly massive block of Zombies.

Ya I normally only take one unit of monks and that's to push the furnace but I've been debating taking another unit of 40 and putting the banner on it instead of the furnace unit.

Furnace is a great unit though I have been having tons of fun with it. If only it had some sort of armour save like the doomwheel. Ah well.

Bless with filth is the one spell I try to get off into plague monks makes them so much better. I'd rather have death frenzy on a unit of stormvermin. Personal opinion obviously tho

 chiefbigredman wrote:
Bless with filth is the one spell I try to get off into plague monks makes them so much better. I'd rather have death frenzy on a unit of stormvermin. Personal opinion obviously tho

No it's not, it's math.

Would you rather have: a unit with +1 attack on the front rank, and another unit with Poison, or: a unit with +2 attacks on the front rank, and another unit with Poison?

If both units are legitimate targets, the choice is clear. Unless you want to stack both spells on one unit. At which point, the choice is still clear. Deathfrenzy has more effect on units that don't already have Frenzy (and if those units are also WS4 S4 I5? No contest).

Is that not what I just said?
I'd rather a unit that already has frenzy to have poisoned attacks.
Then put +2 attacks on a unit that doesn't have frenzy aka stormvermin.

I fail to see what your saying? Sorry

You said "personal opinion obviously tho", to which I said, "no it's not (a personal opinion), it's math". As in, your preference is unarguably the best option.

I wasn't disagreeing with your tactical choice; I was just saying that you are more right than even you were claiming to be.

Warpsolution wrote:
You said "personal opinion obviously tho", to which I said, "no it's not (a personal opinion), it's math". As in, your preference is unarguably the best option.

I wasn't disagreeing with your tactical choice; I was just saying that you are more right than even you were claiming to be.

Ah okay I was a little confused there lol

Something I've been considering:

Run the Bellstar, but run it 7-wide. And don't use Assassins. Use Warlords on Bonebreakers!

Warpsolution wrote:
Something I've been considering:

Run the Bellstar, but run it 7-wide. And don't use Assassins. Use Warlords on Bonebreakers!

That's an interesting idea that would probably work!
With the new 50% lords and 50% heroes I'd be tempted to try that and still have points for a plague priest on a furnace!

I think I'm going to use the bell next game, I rarely use it but I think the 18 inch inspiring presence plus 4+ ward built in is becoming more and more attractive.

Warpsolution wrote:
Something I've been considering:

Run the Bellstar, but run it 7-wide. And don't use Assassins. Use Warlords on Bonebreakers!

I like it!

I should really get around to converting my Bonebreaker lord one day...

Right after I finish my giant rat screaming bell I guess.

Warpsolution wrote:
Something I've been considering:

Run the Bellstar, but run it 7-wide. And don't use Assassins. Use Warlords on Bonebreakers!

"Don't use Assassins", I..don't understand?

 streamdragon wrote:
my giant rat screaming bell

Tell me more...

 thedarkavenger wrote:
"Don't use Assassins", I..don't understand?

Well, let's check it out:

Assuming both Warlords have 4+ armour and a 4+ Ward...

Against 24* WS3 S3 attacks, the Assassins take 8 hits, 2.7 wounds, 1.4 after saves.
Against 32** WS3 S3 attacks, the Warlords take 16 hits, 2.7 wounds, 0.7 after saves.

Against 24 WS4-6 S4 attacks, the Assassins take 12 hits, 6 wounds, 3 after saves.
Against 32 WS4-6 S4 attacks, the Warlords take 16 hits, 5.3 wounds, 1.8 after saves.

Against 24 WS4-6 S5 attacks, the Assassins take 12 hits, 8 wounds, 4 after saves.
Against 32 WS4-6 S5 attacks, the Warlords take 16 hits, 8 wounds, 3.4 after saves.

*each Assassin is in base contact with 3 enemy models on 20mm bases. Assuming 3 ranks of A2 models in a Horde formation, each Assassin can be attacked 12 times.
**each Warlord is in base contact with 4 enemy models on 20mm bases. Assuming 3 ranks of A2 models in a Horde formation, each Warlord can be attacked 16 times.

So, the Assassins run you 320pts total for the typical builds. The Warlords would cost 381pts. And then there's the difference between their offensive output, too. And you could always tack on the Shadow Magnet Trinket, Obsidian, and/or the Ironcurse Icon to keep that huge block going.

 streamdragon wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:
Something I've been considering:

Run the Bellstar, but run it 7-wide. And don't use Assassins. Use Warlords on Bonebreakers!

I like it!

I should really get around to converting my Bonebreaker lord one day...

Right after I finish my giant rat screaming bell I guess.

It's a good idea but there are some issues more with cost than anything. This would work in a 50% lords and heroes loadout but not a 25% build in a 2500 pts game. The bell alone takes up most of the points and besides killing war machines my bell doesn't really pull its own weight which is rather sad. Hopefully the next army book reworks the bell. 2 warlords on bonebreakers really would increase the hitting power of a unit though and that's a good thing. Sadly they can currently be sniped by cannons and singled out but aside from that they're nice.

There is no 25% Lords anymore. The End Times changed that.

Cannons, you say? I say Stormbanner, Gutter Runners, and maybe even a screen of Rat Ogres.
That, and the Abomination, Doomwheel, and Cannon. "Sure, you can aim at that Warlord...while my A-bomb trundles ever closer to your main line..."

Warpsolution wrote:
There is no 25% Lords anymore. The End Times changed that.

Cannons, you say? I say Stormbanner, Gutter Runners, and maybe even a screen of Rat Ogres.
That, and the Abomination, Doomwheel, and Cannon. "Sure, you can aim at that Warlord...while my A-bomb trundles ever closer to your main line..."

You can have your 50% lords. I'll just sit here with a dark elf gunline. With 6 test or die vortexes.

WHAT?! thedarkavenger has a sure-fire way to beat a unit/tactic/army, 100% of the time, with no effort or chance for failure? No way!

Anyway. I'm sure your Dark Elf list is very nice. What it has to do with "Skaven Tournament Help unconventional tactics and lists", however, I have not the slightest clue.

Warpsolution wrote:
WHAT?! thedarkavenger has a sure-fire way to beat a unit/tactic/army, 100% of the time, with no effort or chance for failure? No way?

He's a man with a plan! Haha
I actually hope they come out with a kit for a bonebreaker. I might model one out of the spare rat ogre that I have laying around from the bell/furnace box. Have lots of spare rat ogres too I could use.

How effective do you think a unit of 6 rat ogres would be? Or possibly 8? Have lots and honestly I have only used them a handful of time in units of 2 so not sure how they run in big packs