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 koooaei wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
As noted, while other games may have higher prices per model, they require *far* fewer models, and thus overall the cost of the game is far less.

Kill team?

I find Warhammer 40k to be relatively cheap compared to other hobbies around. It's quite time consuming though.

Mind you, we don't insist on having hardcover codexes in our flgs. A print is fine.

While true, Kill Team isn't covered in the basic rules, is an additional cost to purchase the rules, and honestly, still doesn't play spectacularly well.

 CrownAxe wrote:

You missed the point. 40k has a ton of room for conversions and scratch building which can make building 40k armies immensely cheaper. Warmahordes and X-wings have pretty much 0 room to do so.

I wish people would stop repeating this lie. conversions are possible in WMH. Rules are stricter but conversions are both allowed and encouraged, even in pp's magazine with some awesome competitions. Typically conversions also range from kit swaps to rather epic jobs.

As to a few examples (steamroller tournament legal too).

HMS griffon gun carriage to airship conversion:
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?192274-HMS-Griffon-Gun-Carraige-to-Airship-Conversion

Legion of Mechablight:
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?198539-And-now-for-something-completely-different

General customised figures:
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?144918-Show-me-your-most-heavily-customized-figures!

conversion policy is strict, but fair, and only applies for PP run steamrollers. even then, its not hard to work with. and ultimately the TO can OK things (and probably will, so long as its not silly - "this coke can is a juggernaut". like for like weapon swaps, using 50% of the original model, use PP bits... Nothing extraordinary really.

amongst your local friends, and local tourneys, if they're ok with looser stuff, then play it.

And how many of those actually saved money? None from the looks of it . My post about using conversions to save money, not that you can't do any conversions in WMH.

To play competitive, WMH is just as expensive as 40k. An 1850 eldar list I priced with rules and codex is about the same as 2 50 point menoth lists and rule book. The starter for WMH has good casters but the jacks and units are subpar at best. Nobody in tournaments uses repenter or crusader with kreoss1. Cinerators are hands down the worst menoth unit and one of the worst units in all of WM. The khador side isn't much better. The battle boxes are the same way. They typically include 1 good model and the rest are mediocre or nearly useless in competitive play. The model quality on everything but the metal models is atrocious. I had a missing head, missing jack piece and 5 banana swords in my starter box. The tops of all the staffs on my Choir were broken off and are nearly impossible to put back together. Their models need more pins and green stuff to hold up than anything I've ever seen. The game is fun but aesthetics and model quality are terrible (I know the first point is subjective). Sure, it's cheaper to start WMH than 40k. Over the long term, they're the same price. I've talked to plenty of people that play both competitively and they all say the same thing.

I doubt that many 40k conversions will save a tonne of money? You still have to buy all the parts or the kits to get the parts. It's also not fair to say '40k is cheaper because you can convert!' Because that's not a like for like comparison. It's apples and oranges. Not everyone has the skills to convert whole armies, and you shouldn't have to convert the whole army to be able to afford the game...

I have bought a complete 2000 point Dystopian Wars fleet (average game being 1500) for less than the 40k rulebook + 1 codex.

I have bought a full, 300 point horde army (tourney size) for infinity for less than the 40k core rulebook.

I have bought enough X wing models to play both sides for, again, less than the 7th ed book.


Seeing the Australian prices, I find the idea that X wing, or even any other game, is more expensive than 40k hi-fething-larious.
Hell even comparing model to model an X-wing model is $20, a plastic GW character is anywhere from $22-38.

I've saved a ton of money with conversions for my daemon army

- Made a Burning Chariot out of the spare bits after building a Plague Hulk - $40 savings
- Built a cyber Daemon Princes out of bits I got for a single plastic Juggernaut - $30 savings
- Built a blue scribe model from a screamer and the blue horrors from a burning chariot kit - $30 savings
- Made 10 Seekers out of a box of demonettes and green stuff - $25 savings
- Made nine fiends of slaanesh and a slaanesh herald out of a demonette box and Orc&Gob spider riders - $150 savings
- Out of a plague drone box I converted 3 blight drones (made the propellers out of super sculpty and plasticard) and used the extra bits to also make 3 beast of nurgle - $200 savings

The thing that allows 40k to save money is bits. GW kits have so much customizing that there is always left over bits that can be used to save money on building other units. WMH don't have that. All of their kits are specific models with no inherent customizing so have 0 bitz. Even if you aren't good at converting you can sell those extra bitz to get some cash back on your purchase.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:


40k is only expensive if you make it expensive.

That is also true for every other miniature game, i can play warmachine with one warcaster and one warjack except i have never seen people play such small scale games.
You play the game as it is meant to be. so if you want to play competitive 40k is more expensive than privateer and x-wing

You missed the point. 40k has a ton of room for conversions and scratch building which can make building 40k armies immensely cheaper. Warmahordes and X-wings have pretty much 0 room to do so.

So 40k can be cheap because it's possible to build a Rhino from plasticard. I haven't tried scratch-building an X-Wing. Should I? Is it impossible?

I'd be interested to meet this legion of three-model 40k players. Not the ones who use three models, but the ones who own three models. The guys who buy three models and say 'well, that's my 40k army finished! What a steal!'. It's weird that they're apparently everywhere, but I don't know any. I guess there's a chance that '40k can be played with three models' might be empty, defensive pedantry, but I'd like to think not.

Anyway, I can go one better. If both players use Legion of the Damned, 40k can be played with no models at all! Don't you all see now that 40k is a cheap game? Well, no. The fact that one isn't obligated to purchase something doesn't make that thing cheap. Why would it?

GW charge you for those bits already. Dual kits are more expensive because there's more bits in them even though some/most people will only use half.

 ImAGeek wrote:
GW charge you for those bits already. Dual kits are more expensive because there's more bits in them even though some/most people will only use half.

Then sell the bitz to make up the difference or use those bits to build extra models. Both of those cover the supposed extra cost of having those bits.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
GW charge you for those bits already. Dual kits are more expensive because there's more bits in them even though some/most people will only use half.

Then sell the bitz to make up the difference or use those bits to build extra models. Both of those cover the supposed extra cost of having those bits.

Or you could go the cheaper option and not buy GW?

Saves a lot of hassle.

It's not a 'supposed cost' it is a cost. And yeah you could do them but I shouldn't have to sell parts from a kit or convert my own stuff out of it to get the full value out of a kit.

selling bits is very difficult to do well, especially not on an industrial level scale.

It's not like you can buy a kit and instantly find buyers for all the extra bits (especially when many bits/weapons/extras will *never* see a table because of crappy rules), and turn around and buy bits you need at the same price.

Yeah and I don't see why I should have to go to that effort to get the value out of a kit because GW decided to add 5-10 quid to a kit because they put a few extra bits in there to make a crappy unit. Not only that but dual kits usually look pretty crap because you can see which kit they designed first and which was just 'how can we make another unit from this to charge more?'

Here in NZ. Its;

$220 for a Battleforce.
$98 for the codex.
$165 for the rulebook.

If you have an army in mind you want to play.

$195 for Dark Vengeance if you want to go that way.

Either way what you get is limiting, easily beaten by anyone who has played longer than you and soon means you are going to have to drop an extra $500-1000 to buy the bits and pieces you need to become competitive. Not including what you need to pay for terrain, paint, dice, supplement books to get the extra rules, etc. (Paying $80+ for a book where you need only one rule from, but having it as something the game says is compulsory kinda sucks).

X-wing has a $65 buy in. The most expensive thing being the Tantive at $135.

No need to pay extra for terrain or paint. They give you bits and pieces in your core sets, large and above sized ships. The rules are free to download, buying a second core set or a blister of dice at $13 is about all you ever need to buy for the dice.
Every ship you buy can be used right away, its not going to be nerfed away by a Codex, or written out of the game suddenly.
If you ship has a new ability/rule to the game then a card is provided to bring you up to date.

Its pretty clear and cut. There's no need to refer to several books to field a force. You don't need to memorise BS/WS/Sv/Special Rules, etc. Any upgrades you buy are on cards so your opponent can read it and play goes on. 40k is terrible with how the game can be held up because on page X the rule is stated to be 'this' but 200 pages later a single sentence can mean that rule doesn't apply at all, then if you know it but your opponent doesn't you have to waste time looking for the one sentence. Or proving that your minis can do certain things.

FFG was smart in that if you really want all the nifty upgrades and abilities, you pretty much have to buy everything. But then thats not so bad, some people might like the ship while not needing the cards and outside of a tournament people don't seem to mind people bring copies of cards or running their lists from a tablet.

The 3rd edition Rulebook for 40k was quite neat. Rules, army lists, missions, etc. Virtually everything you need for your group to play was in one handy book. Now its spread between your codex, the rulebook, several supplements, books from Forgeworld, online only downloads, etc.

Plus X-Wing is quite well balanced, from the largest to the smallest ship, everything has a use, everything can be used, whatever game you play you have a chance of doing something. 40k for me has lost that. Codex books full of units which in the fluff are great but on the table are a joke. Any new version could utterly nerf thousands of dollars worth of army in one go. Not something you have to worry about with certain other games.

I know of a tournament coming up where the winners are already decided purely because some 40k armies have LOW's that vaporise virtually anything they get in their sights with very little that can counter them. At least with the X-Wing one there are assumed winners but no one can say its decided in concrete because any build could just happen to outmanoeuvre or roll better than a list that people assume will win.

 Ailaros wrote:
Draigo and two units of one paladin.

To say nothing of unbound.

If you're going to attempt this:

X-Wing starter (£30) + Falcon (£25) gives you a 100 point rebel list including rulebook, unit rules, dice and templates. £55. You also get 2 Imperial Ties, which you could bring up to a 100 point list with another £35 worth of imperial ships. So two full tournament ready "armies" for £80.

So, your 40k list:
Core rulebook: £50
Codex Grey Knights: £30
Grey Knights Paladins: £28
Total: £108

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and "forget" the model for Draigo, saying that you could convert a "counts-as" from the Paladins box.

Your "cheap" 40k option is still twice as expensive as the X-Wing option. You can get two full size X-Wing tournament lists for 2/3s the price of your cheap option.

It's also the high costs of maintaining and expanding 40k that's making it more expensive. Whenever there is a change in editions and rules, you're almost forced to invest in a) a new rulebook and b) eventually a new codex for the current edition, while running into the danger of your units being dropped out completely and becoming obsolete. (Penal Legion and Sly Marbo for example). Other systems either let you play with old lists, they update them via free errata, have rules or stats and lists for free download or at least a cheap softcover version sold as a single copy.

The move from 5E to 6E had me buy a new 65€ rulebook and a 39€ Imp codex for 40k to be able to play, for example, while it was just a 8€ softcover for Flames of War when they moved from V2 to V3 (free for owners of the previous edition).

Then there are the costs of expanding. While DV and BR before certainly are good deals, it ramps up from there if you want to expand those choices, especially if you want new formations for your existing armies and you'll have to move into forgeworld's realm (e.g. Elysians, Tank Coy, Armoured Fist for Imps).

As far as the bits are concerned, they do include a ton of bits, but quite often not those that matter. You want a meltagun or plasma launcher for your imp troops for example? You have to start scavenging, as there are only one of each in the command sprue and none in the standard platoon.

The good thing about 40k is, though, that there is a huge secondary market. If you're somewhat crafty, you have a huge selection of crappy and cheap used models on ebay that can be made usable with a bit of effort.

 Daedleh wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Draigo and two units of one paladin.

To say nothing of unbound.

If you're going to attempt this:

X-Wing starter (£30) + Falcon (£25) gives you a 100 point rebel list including rulebook, unit rules, dice and templates. £55. You also get 2 Imperial Ties, which you could bring up to a 100 point list with another £35 worth of imperial ships. So two full tournament ready "armies" for £80.

So, your 40k list:
Core rulebook: £50
Codex Grey Knights: £30
Grey Knights Paladins: £28
Total: £108

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and "forget" the model for Draigo, saying that you could convert a "counts-as" from the Paladins box.

Your "cheap" 40k option is still twice as expensive as the X-Wing option. You can get two full size X-Wing tournament lists for 2/3s the price of your cheap option.

The GK cost will also increase after he buys the codex and finds out that Paladins can no longer be taken as single-model units, and that Draigo is not an HQ and does not make Paladins troops, so unless he wants to play his 400 point games unbound, he'd have to buy a few more kits. At least one more box of Terminators, unbound or not.

X-Wing, with it's pre-painted mini's and the finite universe in which it's set looks like it'll last a couple of years before people grow tired of it and move onto greener pastures. It started (like most star wars games across various media) strong, and has in a short amount of time seen a noticeable drop in popularity. 40K is still a juggernaught despite the vocal internet minority who take every opportunity to remind anyone who'll listen that they don't play it anymore and therefore neither should you. Wargaming isn't a cheap hobby, even if flash-in-the-pan games such as X-Wing make a quick cash-grab off tired unoriginal subject material for half the price that you're used to paying. Where do you think this game will go - provided it even lasts 5 years? I mean, I'm sure it'll get boring shooting down the same TIE fighter every weekend with your B-Wing, therefore new models, bigger models, higher prices, you'll be reaching for those fedoras and thick rimmed glasses in no time at all.

I think X-Wing is just a bit expensive per miniature, it's £8-10 for a little spaceship which I find rather a lot, I'm not sure what else you get in the packets. GW regularly seem to charge £15 for unpainted singles made from the dubious Finecast.

There are plenty of cheaper manufacturers though, look at the new Warzone range, you can get pack of 4-5 individually posed resin figures for £10-12. GW prices can't compete with that, and the quality is good too.

MarsNZ wrote:X-Wing, with it's pre-painted mini's and the finite universe in which it's set looks like it'll last a couple of years before people grow tired of it and move onto greener pastures. It started (like most star wars games across various media) strong, and has in a short amount of time seen a noticeable drop in popularity. 40K is still a juggernaught despite the vocal internet minority who take every opportunity to remind anyone who'll listen that they don't play it anymore and therefore neither should you. Wargaming isn't a cheap hobby, even if flash-in-the-pan games such as X-Wing make a quick cash-grab off tired unoriginal subject material for half the price that you're used to paying. Where do you think this game will go - provided it even lasts 5 years? I mean, I'm sure it'll get boring shooting down the same TIE fighter every weekend with your B-Wing, therefore new models, bigger models, higher prices, you'll be reaching for those fedoras and thick rimmed glasses in no time at all.

Except every ship has 6-7 different pilots with unique special rules, and every ship has multiple upgrade slots with all of the options being well balanced. It's not the same TIE Fighter every week with the same B Wing. If that's what your argument is reduced to then 40k is just about the same Space Marine Tactical Squad shooting the same Ork Mob every week.

There's quite a few misconceptions in your post which show that you're not as clued up on X-Wing as you think. I don't think that X-Wing will retain its popularity forever, but to claim that it's going to vanish or doesn't have replay value is incredibly short sighted.

Also, 40k is still a juggernaught yes. But it's becoming a smaller and smaller one every year.

Howard A Treesong wrote:I think X-Wing is just a bit expensive per miniature, it's £8-10 for a little spaceship which I find rather a lot, I'm not sure what else you get in the packets. GW regularly seem to charge £15 for unpainted singles made from the dubious Finecast.

There are plenty of cheaper manufacturers though, look at the new Warzone range, you can get pack of 4-5 individually posed resin figures for £10-12. GW prices can't compete with that, and the quality is good too.

X-Wing is expensive per miniature, but so is every low model count game. You also get the full rules for the ship in every blister pack rather than *just* the mini. It does seem expensive until you start playing and realise just how few miniatures the game needs.

But yeah, when comparing GW prices people always like to compare them to skirmish games which only need a couple of dozen models per side in which case the overall cost is much, much cheaper. When you compare GW prices to those making miniatures for larger games, such as Mantic or Perry Miniatures then the cost per mini is a fraction of what GW charges.

DV's models are deliberately underwhelming, so I don't really think that's a fair comparison.

All of the models in DV are deliberately designed only to be used in either a DA or CSM army. Unlike in Black Reach, which contained generic marines that could be suited for any chapter or any Codex, DA marines have insignias and art that only make them suitable in DA armies. The Terminators and bikers are also bogged with RW/DW insignias, which makes them technically not suitable as vanilla terminators or white scars. The DA Codex itself is $50 and is widely considered one of the worst codexes.

The CSM codex is not a very great tier, and what is included in the DV box is not the best pick of the codex. Cultists, Chosen, a HELBRUTE (bottom-rung).

As a model kit, Dark Vengeance is a superb value, but let me ask this: how many of you even use one single model from the DV kit? By contrast, how many of you own a DV kit? How many of you have DV models sitting in your closet, not ever touching the table?

MarsNZ wrote:
40K is still a juggernaught

Wait, seriously? There is someone in NZ who would consider 40k a juggernaut? I thought the situation over there was even worse than here. You guys pay $129 for a land raider for god's sake!

I'd have expected 40k to be even deader there than over here.

 CrownAxe wrote:
You missed the point. 40k has a ton of room for conversions and scratch building which can make building 40k armies immensely cheaper. Warmahordes and X-wings have pretty much 0 room to do so.

Any game is going to be cheaper if you use cheaper alternatives to the 'official' miniatures...

 TedNugent wrote:


As a model kit, Dark Vengeance is a superb value, but let me ask this: how many of you even use one single model from the DV kit? By contrast, how many of you own a DV kit? How many of you have DV models sitting in your closet, not ever touching the table?

I own DV.

I use the Librarian Deathwing squad, and Tactical Squad most times I play as DA, or if I need to up the numbers of Termies or Tacs in my multi-Chapter C:SM armies. The Ravenwing get used more often as just DA, but have seen play with C:SM as well.

The Chaos side doesn't get used simply as I don't play Chaos, but even then the awesome Lord, Chosen and Brute minis take pride of place on my shelf (and if I did play, would be used almost every time as they're too cool not to use). The Cultists saw play as Penal Legion before they were scrapped, and now get used in ITEN, occasionally Deadzone and if I need numbers for Conscripts or play the old IG Codex.

DV is great value for money, compared not only to GW but to Wargaming as a whole. I own starter sets for 3 games, and each has its own niche, but in terms of value, I'd say DV wins by a country mile.

DV: 48/9 minis (depending on whether you get the new version or not), dice, FULL Rulebook and quick-start book, Templates

Infinity: Operation Icestorm: 14 minis (although they are stunning), card terrain (very cool, but not 'worth' a ton), Dice, Quick Start rulebook (you can get the full one free online, no complaints there, but it's still not something in the box), some counters that aren't going to stand up to much unless you laminate them.

Deadzone: 23 Minis, A great set of terrain (the real value in the box, I think), full rules/cards, durable counters and lots of them, dice.

Overall, I think DV wins, as a) it's got more minis, which means you get more stuff, which in turn leads to more enjoyment painting them up if you like that, b) it has the FULL rules for the game, whereas Icestorm has a QS book that straddles two editions so can be confusing, and doesn't use anywhere near the full rules. Say what you like about 40k, DV has the best value for the cost purely in terms of 'stuff you get'


On a more general note, I do have to say I find the pricing laughable. OK, you might get cards and bits and bobs, but ultimately you're paying £10 for a single mini that is absolutely tiny, that comes already painted. Given the choice between 2 X-wings or one box of Space Wolves, I know whic is going to give me more to do in terms of modelling, gaming and painting enjoyment. If X-wing cost about £4-5 a figure, I might be tempted, but at the price it's at I see absolutely no value in it.

One valid point that has been raised is how 40k's entry cost outside of a starter set is higher, and that's true. When I gave up and refused to buy first the new IG codex and then the 7th Ed rules, I put the £80 into getting two Malifaux crews that both give me 60% or so of a full crew, and both of which can be played out of the box and enjoyed. You could say the money I didn't spend on the new SW and GK codexes bought me most of Icestorm as well.

 Envihon wrote:
People complain constantly about the costs of GW and how they are so expensive but has anyone looked at how expensive X-Wing is? I was looking around at the hobby shop just checking out the things that people say are so much better than GW and I couldn't believe how expensive X-Wing is. Now I understand for the most part, it is just models and you don't have to buy Codices but dang man, the cost of them equals the models plus the codex to go along. I mean I also feel the same about Privateer Press, that people complain about GW prices but from where I stand, neither company offers a "cheaper" hobby. The only argument from that side that someone can argue is that you need less models than GW but isn't that the point of WH40k, to play anything from small skirmishes to giant battles. The other area is maybe customer service and player support but I haven't had a problem really. Things like this make it hard for me to understand why people rail against GW pricing. Maybe I am not seeing the big picture and someone can help illuminate me (In a respectful manner. I understand this is a touchy subject but could we please have civil discourse over the internet and not a flame war?)

It's not price per model that's the problem, it's value. I feel I get more value out of buying a $50 box from Privateer than I do a $40 box from GW because the box from PP gives me a big chunk of an army, the box from GW is a small piece that needs a lot more, or in the case of WHFB several boxes to make a single unit. It FEELS like you're being cheated, whether or not you actually are. Couple that with the high price of the rules alone and it's even worse.

I recently spent around $110 on a unit of Iron Fang Pikemen ($85 retail, got for about $65 online), the Officer+Standard ($19 retail, got for about $15) and the Black Dragons bits from PP direct ($20). I still feel I got more value from buying those than buying let's say a Tactical squad and a transport from GW (which would be roughly the same, or even a bit less). It feels like I got more for my money, and it feels like what I bought is a larger part of my force and not just a drop in the bucket that I need to buy several more times.

To start, I think GW prices need to come down at least25%. I won't hold my breath on that.

But since retail on these kits is so high, why in the fething world don't they come with at least one of all the options available for those models in the codex???

Hope you like Heavy Bolters, CSM!

 Paradigm wrote:

DV is great value for money, compared not only to GW but to Wargaming as a whole. I own starter sets for 3 games, and each has its own niche, but in terms of value, I'd say DV wins by a country mile.

DV: 48/9 minis (depending on whether you get the new version or not), dice, FULL Rulebook and quick-start book, Templates

But not the full RULES. You need at minimum another codex to play the side you chose out of it, and a second if you want to play the other side.
As well those armies are pretty imbalanced against each other and form less than what, a third of an average game? (I think it was about 600, DA might be more but I could swear chaos was lower).

 Paradigm wrote:
Infinity: Operation Icestorm: 14 minis (although they are stunning), card terrain (very cool, but not 'worth' a ton), Dice, Quick Start rulebook (you can get the full one free online, no complaints there, but it's still not something in the box), some counters that aren't going to stand up to much unless you laminate them.

Those two armies are something like 200 points each, 2/3rds of a full size game. No codex costs on top, very well balanced against each other.
As well model material and quality really should count for something here. Those models are, if nothing else, inherently superior as they are metal and the DV ones are snap fit.

 Paradigm wrote:
Deadzone: 23 Minis, A great set of terrain (the real value in the box, I think), full rules/cards, durable counters and lots of them, dice.

Don't own it so I won 't comment.

Dystopian Wars however is again, 2/3rds of sized fleet (or thereabouts, I forget off the top of my head). About 30 models, 3 of which are vehicle sized.
Full rules. Again needs no codex needed. campaign booklet to introduce the game, dice, terrain (admittedly card but that's all you need for Dyst Wars with the scale.

 Paradigm wrote:
Overall, I think DV wins, as a) it's got more minis, which means you get more stuff, which in turn leads to more enjoyment painting them up if you like that, b) it has the FULL rules for the game, whereas Icestorm has a QS book that straddles two editions so can be confusing, and doesn't use anywhere near the full rules. Say what you like about 40k, DV has the best value for the cost purely in terms of 'stuff you get'

I think this is an absolutely invalid way of judging a starter set. If you're looking at it from the prospective of a hobbyist looking to bulk out a collection for cheap this has merit, but that's not what a starter set is for.
Looking at it from the point of view of someone entering the hobby DV is terrible.
It has the most additional costs from rules you NEED to buy.
It has the smallest percentage of a full force.
It is the most unbalanced in terms of units provided.

 Paradigm wrote:
On a more general note, I do have to say I find the pricing laughable. OK, you might get cards and bits and bobs, but ultimately you're paying £10 for a single mini that is absolutely tiny, that comes already painted. Given the choice between 2 X-wings or one box of Space Wolves, I know whic is going to give me more to do in terms of modelling, gaming and painting enjoyment. If X-wing cost about £4-5 a figure, I might be tempted, but at the price it's at I see absolutely no value in it.

£10 is a lot? Since when? GW are selling a librarian for £18, fincast characters for £15, £11 and, the cheapest I could find in in the marine line was £8.20 for a model that's probably almost as old as I am.
Again though, you're looking at models you get not models you need. An xwing fleet is 3-5 ships, so £30-50. A strikeforce is (in pounds, keep in mind in the rest of the world those conversions become absolutely hilarious) £140. That is a good saving off buying everything individually but still not a full army.

 Paradigm wrote:
One valid point that has been raised is how 40k's entry cost outside of a starter set is higher, and that's true. When I gave up and refused to buy first the new IG codex and then the 7th Ed rules, I put the £80 into getting two Malifaux crews that both give me 60% or so of a full crew, and both of which can be played out of the box and enjoyed. You could say the money I didn't spend on the new SW and GK codexes bought me most of Icestorm as well.

Exactly. That is a HUGE factor for some people. Buying is an important factor of cost.

On a model by model basis, Privateer Press's stuff is roughly as overpriced as GWs. PP pull ahead in that their rules are cheaper and you do not need to buy supplements to play with your miniatures because the miniatures come with their own rules.
Other concerns are fairly subjective, but I'd put them like this:
Gameplay: PP games have better designed rules and a much greater game balance.
Release Philosophy: PP try to always release "something for everyone" for their main factions. Some sub factions may see less attention but they are very good at keeping all factions updated in general. This contrasts with GW's "Leave armies to rot for over a decade" approach. PP also generally release new things and do not rely on "reskinning" old content.
Army Size: PP games require fewer miniatures to play, so overall they are cheaper.

So in my opinion, PP comes out ahead. However, it is definitely true that their stuff is comparable in price to GW and I don't see any reason not to criticise or at least acknowledge that, even if you are a PP fan. From my perspective, their kits also are often made from inferior materials and have problems with internal scaling and assembly, which in the end put me off PP games despite their excellent gameplay.

^^ I'll comment on Deadzone.

 Paradigm wrote:

Deadzone: 23 Minis, A great set of terrain (the real value in the box, I think), full rules/cards, durable counters and lots of them, dice.

Deadzone contains 120 points of Enforcers and 100 points of Plague, not including upgrades. You need 70 points for a full size game. You get more than 50% more models than you actually need (lots of variation) including terrain, while Dark Vengeance has, at best, 50% of what you need.

If you're looking at sheer model count then yes, Dark Vengeance wins versus Skirmish games. If you're looking at proportion of a full size force, or for how easy it is to expand into a full size force (including rules) then DV loses. Hard. That's not even taking into account the quality of the game.