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The unit, as a whole, for all rules purposes, must treat the IC as a normal member of that unit

The rule you post is a rule during "choosing your army". By the time you get to deployment, this rule has been satisfied. What rule allows you to review this rule and apply it again? Bear in mind that, if you claim "choosing your army" rules apply throughout the game, the instant my unit of 5 chaos marines takes a casualty, I have an illegal army.

Blaktoof - again, you are not treating the IC as a normal member of the unit, for the rules purpose of "is this unit from the NSF detachment?" and ths have broken the rules. Your wall of text does nothing but show your inability to address that point.

Your concession on this matter is accepted, mark your posts "HYWPI" as you cannot support your argument with relevant rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The unit, as a whole, for all rules purposes, must treat the IC as a normal member of that unit

The rule you post is a rule during "choosing your army". By the time you get to deployment, this rule has been satisfied. What rule allows you to review this rule and apply it again? Bear in mind that, if you claim "choosing your army" rules apply throughout the game, the instant my unit of 5 chaos marines takes a casualty, I have an illegal army.

The Rites of Teleportation rule requires you to evaluate detachment membership in order to resolve it ("...any unit in this Detachment...") during deployment, after you have nominated your Warlord. Selecting and adjudicating Warlord traits also requires evaluation of detachment membership, explicitly so in the case of a reserved unit that is reliant upon a Warlord trait to deploy onto the table in an unusual way, or also in the case of death of a Warlord, (also in "Choose your Army") when you may be required to evaluate detachment membership well into a game.

But even if you wish to disregard "Choosing Your Army" as irrelevant, how do you resolve rules such as Codex: Space Marine Chapter Tactics, which also specify the language "units in this detachment?" Does a White Scars character lose Hit & Run when joining a unit from an allied detachment? How about a Raven Guard character who is trying to confer Scout or Outflank to an allied unit joined during deployment? Does he get shunted back into normal Reserves when Outflanking? Is the unit destroyed absent permission to re-enter Reserves as soon as it declares a Scout or Outflank move with the character joined?

Gestalt unit detachment membership seems to open up a lot of holes in the ruleset. The only way I can fully resolve these situations by RAW is to use the concept of per-model membership.

Irrelevant to this case, however

In this case the unit is still demonstrably from the NSF, while the character does not change detachment.

You have to recall that, treating the IC NOT as a normal member of the unit for ALL rules purposes means you have broken a rule. As per YMDC, please show the rule allowing you to break this fairly all encompassing and overarching rule.

If you cannot, your argument fails

Creeperman wrote:

Command Benefits, Choosing Your Army, WH40k 7E wrote:This section of the Detachment lists any special rules or benefits that apply to some or all of the models in that Detachment. For example, the units in a Combined Arms Detachment benefit from the Ideal Mission Commander and Objective Secured special rules.

The book explicitly calls them special rules, so I'm not sure what argument could be mounted against them being special rules by RAW. Thus, following the rules for ICs, it seems apparent that the attached character does not himself possess the Rites of Teleportation special rule, and does not gain it by virtue of joining the GK unit. Equally undoubtedly, the Rites of Teleportation special rule targets the entire unit as a whole, not individual models, with the restriction that all of them be part of the Nemesis Strike Formation.

The underlined is not in the rule for Rites of Teleportation. It specifically says all units (not models) in the detachment have the special rule. An IC by default is treated as part of the unit it joins and therefore gains the benefit of special rules that the unit has UNLESS there is a specific restriction such as the one given to Deep Strike (Deep Strike requires all models in a unit to have Deep Strike before it functions. Rites of Teleportation does not have this wording.) There are actually very few special rules given to entire units... most of them are given to individual models and don't cause issues. Rites of Teleportation is an example of a special rule given on the unit level instead of the model level.

Zimko wrote:

Creeperman wrote:

Command Benefits, Choosing Your Army, WH40k 7E wrote:This section of the Detachment lists any special rules or benefits that apply to some or all of the models in that Detachment. For example, the units in a Combined Arms Detachment benefit from the Ideal Mission Commander and Objective Secured special rules.

The book explicitly calls them special rules, so I'm not sure what argument could be mounted against them being special rules by RAW. Thus, following the rules for ICs, it seems apparent that the attached character does not himself possess the Rites of Teleportation special rule, and does not gain it by virtue of joining the GK unit. Equally undoubtedly, the Rites of Teleportation special rule targets the entire unit as a whole, not individual models, with the restriction that all of them be part of the Nemesis Strike Formation.

The underlined is not in the rule for Rites of Teleportation. It specifically says all units (not models) in the detachment have the special rule. An IC by default is treated as part of the unit it joins and therefore gains the benefit of special rules that the unit has UNLESS there is a specific restriction such as the one given to Deep Strike (Deep Strike requires all models in a unit to have Deep Strike before it functions. Rites of Teleportation does not have this wording.) There are actually very few special rules given to entire units... most of them are given to individual models and don't cause issues. Rites of Teleportation is an example of a special rule given on the unit level instead of the model level.

To be fair with rites the unit doesn't seem to have the rule either, the rule seems attached to the detachment and utilised by units.

Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn
two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Detachment that is placed...

I do disagree the IC gains the benefit of the units special rules unless stated otherwise, the BRB IC rules are pretty clear its the other way around, the IC only gains the special rule or gains the benefit or suffers the penalties if stated in the special rule itself (AKA, if one or more models....). Whole page on Special rules and ongoing effects on the IC special rules.

And yes, nearly all special rules which effect units quantify if all models need it, or if at least one model in the unit has the rule then it's affected to the whole unit. The command benefits IMO should be worded in the same way. Flick through special rule section, its all 'If one or more model with this special rule....'.

Creeperman wrote:

But even if you wish to disregard "Choosing Your Army" as irrelevant, how do you resolve rules such as Codex: Space Marine Chapter Tactics, which also specify the language "units in this detachment?" Does a White Scars character lose Hit & Run when joining a unit from an allied detachment? How about a Raven Guard character who is trying to confer Scout or Outflank to an allied unit joined during deployment? Does he get shunted back into normal Reserves when Outflanking? Is the unit destroyed absent permission to re-enter Reserves as soon as it declares a Scout or Outflank move with the character joined?

Gestalt unit detachment membership seems to open up a lot of holes in the ruleset. The only way I can fully resolve these situations by RAW is to use the concept of per-model membership.

The underlined is not true.

The unit that the IC attached to is still a "unit from this (grey knights NSF) detachment", no matter how you wish to parse the rules. The unit remains a unit from the detachment it was chosen from at all times. There are zero rules that change that.
The IC joining a unit from another detachment does not change the units detachment, nor does it magically remove the detachment (there are no rules to tell us the unit is no longer from X detachment). The IC is no longer a unit, so what detachment it is from is irrelevant as it belongs to a UNIT from the GK NSF detachment at this point (even though it was chosen as a member of X detachment, and remains a member of X detachment, but a member of a UNIT from GK NSF detachment for all rules purposes, including detachment rules that are based on the UNIT, not individual models).

BRB wrote:Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the
unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that
are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

Does not apply as the Rites of Teleportation is a Detachment special rule, not a unit special rule. All units from the GK NSF detachment have the rule for being part of the detachment. When the IC joins the unit, the IC is a member of the unit and so will benefit from the rule.

BRB wrote:Preparing Reserves
Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must
arrive together.... when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character

I have deployed my IC with the GK NSF unit. The GK NSF unit is still a unit from the GK NSF detachment (again, no rule has removed this or changed this to a nondescript unit) and so can come in T1 by making a single roll, as it is a combined reserve unit.

brb wrote:INDEPENDENT CHARACTER
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

The IC is a part of the unit for all rules purposes.

brb wrote:
DETACHMENTS

All of the units in your army must belong to a Detachment and no unit can belong to more than one Detachment. If you choose to use a Battle-forged army, you must tell your opponent what units belong
to what Detachments and what Command Benefits each will receive (if any) before you start deploying your army.

The unit must belong to a detachment. Units cannot belong to more than one detachment. I attach an IC to the GK NSF unit, what detachment is the Unit from? Why?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:

this detachment special rule specifically calls out that all the units must be from the detachment for the special rule.

units being made of models, and in this case not all models in the unit have the special rule nor are all the models in the unit from the said detachment.

Yes, units are made of models. The Rites of Teleportation does not care about models, only the Unit as a whole. The unit remains a unit from the NSF detachment, as per the rules.

claiming the attached unit somehow counts as being in the same detachment as the unit to be a 'a unit from the nsf detachment'

The attached IC (not unit .. IC/Model) is a member of the Unit from the NSF detachment. Nobody, ever, despite your constant harping on this, has claimed the IC (model) becomes a member of another detachment. Full stop.

However, the joined unit is not a unit from a singular detachment, it has models from more than one detachment in it.

The unit the IC joined IS from the NSF detachment despite having an IC joined to it from another detachment. You have zero rules to change that.

No one has been able to cite RAW permission anywhere that the joined IC from any detachment other than the NSF counts as a unit from the NSF for the 'rites of teleportation rules'

And nobody is trying to because that is not true (again).

yes the model counts as a member of the unit, but it does not count as a member of the NSF detachment, or a unit that was selected from it, or even a model from a unit selected from the NSF detachment.

Correct. Nobody is claiming it is. The IC remains a model from its own detachment, but it is a member of a UNIT from the NSF detachment. There is no RAW support to remove the NSF unit from its detachment or make up some imaginary 3rd detachment of "Combined X+Y detachment"

There is no RAW support for such a thing. In this case such an assertation by certain people is even more erroneous because the NSF has the restriction of 'grey knights' faction not just 'space marine' faction, which obviously the joined IC does not have, and does not count as having, making it in no way or shape a member of the NSF detachment, or a unit from the NSF detachment, as the NSF units are solely the units[formed of models] chosen from that FOC with the grey knights faction[required restriction]

Nobody has argued (or asserted as you put it) that the IC does (any of the above).
Stop saying it has been asserted.

there is no rule against a unit after army creation containing models from multiple detachments, so it is RAW that the models keep their faction and detachment identity, and do not gain or change factions.

Correct.

as such a unit that has 10 strike squad members from a NSF and 1 attached IC from a CAD is a unit that has 11 models, 10 of which have faction GK and detachent NSF listed on their force roster with benefits/special rules from their own wargear, unit entry, and detachment entry which are granted all prior to the game starting ie prior to deployment, and a singular IC from a different detachment, with its own detachment rules/benefits/restrictions and rules from wargear unit entry. Neither have RAW permission to default confer special rules to each other, as has been quoted by myself earlier in this read regarding special rules and ICs which can be found in the BRB. The unit cannot claim to be "from the NSF detachment" or a unit form the nsf detachment, because not all models in the unit are actually from that detachment.

So if the unit cannot be a unit from the NSF detachment, what detachment does it belong to? It may only belong to one detachment, which was decided when you built the list, and there are no rules allowing that to change. Please, answer this. You have failed to answer so far (except earlier stating it's a unit from NO detachment, which breaks the rules, and then waffling that its a unit from X+Y detachment, which breaks the rules as well).

So to sum up, for those lost in the back and forth:

RAW, the unit remains a unit from the NSF detachment, and thus any attached IC with access to DS may DS with the unit, utilising the detachment special rule as this is granted to the unit as a whole. There is no in rules way to argue against this, and none of the arguments presented by Blaktoof has contained any relevant rules or rebuttals of these facts.

Noone has claimed the IC unit changes detachment in order for this argument to be true
Noone has claimed the IC model changes detachment in order for this argument to be true.

meh. nvm.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Irrelevant to this case, however

In this case the unit is still demonstrably from the NSF, while the character does not change detachment.

You have to recall that, treating the IC NOT as a normal member of the unit for ALL rules purposes means you have broken a rule. As per YMDC, please show the rule allowing you to break this fairly all encompassing and overarching rule.

If you cannot, your argument fails

not irrelevant.

The issue is the special rule in question doesn't benefit the unit, but the unit from x detachment.

so the detachment and identity of belonging to the detachment cannot be ignored.

treating the IC as a member of the unit does not mean treating it as a member of the detachment.

You have never specified permission for it to count as a member of the detachment for all rules purposes of a unit it has joined.

even discounting that part of your argument which you fail on and have no RAW support at all, the issue of the NSF detachment having the GK faction and the joined IC is not GK faction therefore it can never be part of the NSF detachment in any way is the second issued which you would have to overcome RAW-wise to even begin to make a case for what you saying being the rules.

obviously counts as being a member of the unit does not extend to every rule, as this is blatantly false.

For example, joining an IC with the faction Space marine from a CAD to a Strike Squad with the faction Grey Knights does not make the IC count as GK faction despite the unit being made of models with the GK faction, faction is a rules purpose. How do you have a model without the required faction in the detachment? You are either ignorant of the rules or a cheater at this point.

For example, joing an IC from a CAD to a unit that is from a NSF does not make the IC a model from the NSF.

I won't bother touching on how the interpretation you are putting forth breaks the game in other ways as that has already been stated, and no one has bothered to address them.

and a reminder for people misquoting rules:

There is no limit to the number of Detachments a Battle-forged army can include and you can use any mixture of Detachments you have available, within the restrictions of the rules that follow. However, all of the units in your army must belong to a Detachment and no unit can belong to more than one Detachment. If you choose to use a Battle-forged army, you must tell your opponent what units belong to what Detachments and what Command Benefits each will receive (if any) before you start deploying your army.

In order to organise their army into Detachments, a player will often need to use additional information found in their units’ Army List Entries, such as Faction and Battlefield Role.

Has to do with organizing your force roster, you can have a unit with models from more than one detachment after the game has begun by joining a unit from detachment 1 to a unit from detachment 2, the individual units on their force roster however as per the above RAW do not belong to more than 1 detachment on your force roster.







Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zimko wrote:

Creeperman wrote:

Command Benefits, Choosing Your Army, WH40k 7E wrote:This section of the Detachment lists any special rules or benefits that apply to some or all of the models in that Detachment. For example, the units in a Combined Arms Detachment benefit from the Ideal Mission Commander and Objective Secured special rules.

The book explicitly calls them special rules, so I'm not sure what argument could be mounted against them being special rules by RAW. Thus, following the rules for ICs, it seems apparent that the attached character does not himself possess the Rites of Teleportation special rule, and does not gain it by virtue of joining the GK unit. Equally undoubtedly, the Rites of Teleportation special rule targets the entire unit as a whole, not individual models, with the restriction that all of them be part of the Nemesis Strike Formation.

The underlined is not in the rule for Rites of Teleportation. It specifically says all units (not models) in the detachment have the special rule. An IC by default is treated as part of the unit it joins and therefore gains the benefit of special rules that the unit has UNLESS there is a specific restriction such as the one given to Deep Strike (Deep Strike requires all models in a unit to have Deep Strike before it functions. Rites of Teleportation does not have this wording.) There are actually very few special rules given to entire units... most of them are given to individual models and don't cause issues. Rites of Teleportation is an example of a special rule given on the unit level instead of the model level.

your quote is completely wrong.

Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one.

it does not specifically say all units in this detachment have this special rule.

all units in the detachment get the special rule prior to deployment.

then it states that the rule is usable by any unit in the detachment.

is the IC attached in that detachment?

the only RAW answer is No.


There is no RAW anywhere that states an IC joined to a unit does not continue to have its own faction and detachment type, and the unit is not a unit from x detachment if there are 9 models from detachment x and 1 model from detachment y in the unit. There is no RAW anywhere showing that a unit with models from multiple detachments counts as a unit from just a singular detachment, that is entirely fabricated by multiple posters in this thread.

blaktoof wrote:
The issue is the special rule in question doesn't benefit the unit, but the unit from x detachment.

so the detachment and identity of belonging to the detachment cannot be ignored.

treating the IC as a member of the unit does not mean treating it as a member of the detachment.

Correct.
But you've yet to cite any rule that means joining unit Y from X detachment makes it somehow not unit Y from X detachment.

obviously counts as being a member of the unit does not extend to every rule, as this is blatantly false.

Really? The IC rules explicitly say "all rules purposes."

For example, joining an IC with the faction Space marine from a CAD to a Strike Squad with the faction Grey Knights does not make the IC count as GK faction despite the unit being made of models with the GK faction, faction is a rules purpose. How do you have a model without the required faction in the detachment? You are either ignorant of the rules or a cheater at this point.

Wait, what? What rules purpose are you looking at here?

For example, joing an IC from a CAD to a unit that is from a NSF does not make the IC a model from the NSF.

No one has pretended or asserted otherwise.

I won't bother touching on how the interpretation you are putting forth breaks the game in other ways as that has already been stated, and no one has bothered to address them.

Please, touch on that. You've asserted this fact multiple times throughout these threads and yet have never - not even once - shown where the game is broken.

There is no limit to the number of Detachments a Battle-forged army can include and you can use any mixture of Detachments you have available, within the restrictions of the rules that follow. However, all of the units in your army must belong to a Detachment and no unit can belong to more than one Detachment. If you choose to use a Battle-forged army, you must tell your opponent what units belong to what Detachments and what Command Benefits each will receive (if any) before you start deploying your army.

In order to organise their army into Detachments, a player will often need to use additional information found in their units’ Army List Entries, such as Faction and Battlefield Role.

Has to do with organizing your force roster, you can have a unit with models from more than one detachment after the game has begun by joining a unit from detachment 1 to a unit from detachment 2, the individual units on their force roster however as per the above RAW do not belong to more than 1 detachment on your force roster.

Correct! Yay! You've posted something that literally not a single person disagrees with! Great job!
Now - why is that relevant? Please explain using small words as apparently I'm cheating and could use an explanation as to how.

Zimko wrote:

Creeperman wrote:

Command Benefits, Choosing Your Army, WH40k 7E wrote:This section of the Detachment lists any special rules or benefits that apply to some or all of the models in that Detachment. For example, the units in a Combined Arms Detachment benefit from the Ideal Mission Commander and Objective Secured special rules.

The book explicitly calls them special rules, so I'm not sure what argument could be mounted against them being special rules by RAW. Thus, following the rules for ICs, it seems apparent that the attached character does not himself possess the Rites of Teleportation special rule, and does not gain it by virtue of joining the GK unit. Equally undoubtedly, the Rites of Teleportation special rule targets the entire unit as a whole, not individual models, with the restriction that all of them be part of the Nemesis Strike Formation.

The underlined is not in the rule for Rites of Teleportation. It specifically says all units (not models) in the detachment have the special rule. An IC by default is treated as part of the unit it joins and therefore gains the benefit of special rules that the unit has UNLESS there is a specific restriction such as the one given to Deep Strike (Deep Strike requires all models in a unit to have Deep Strike before it functions. Rites of Teleportation does not have this wording.) There are actually very few special rules given to entire units... most of them are given to individual models and don't cause issues. Rites of Teleportation is an example of a special rule given on the unit level instead of the model level.

your quote is completely wrong.

Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one.

it does not specifically say all units in this detachment have this special rule.

all units in the detachment get the special rule prior to deployment.

then it states that the rule is usable by any unit in the detachment.

is the IC attached in that detachment?

the only RAW answer is No.

I attach the IC to a Strike Squad.
Is the Strike Squad a unit in the NSF detachment? Yes or No. Please answer this simple question.

There is no RAW anywhere that states an IC joined to a unit does not continue to have its own faction and detachment type, and the unit is not a unit from x detachment if there are 9 models from detachment x and 1 model from detachment y in the unit. There is no RAW anywhere showing that a unit with models from multiple detachments counts as a unit from just a singular detachment, that is entirely fabricated by multiple posters in this thread.

Please, cite the rule that allows a unit to be from more than one detachment, or from zero detachments. Since you're asserting it's a fact, prove it.

Still no riles from Blaktoof showing how "for all rules purposes" doesn't actually mean ALL, and yet another assertion that the unit suddenly isn't part of a detachment, or is mixed, or something. Without providing any rules.

Oh, and look. Yet another time where Blaktoof has claimed that we are relying on the model changing detachment. I assume this is some specific form of not just blindness, but delusion, as literally not only has this never been claimed, the actual claims have been highlighted, in colours, to explain this is NOT the claim. It is utterly bizarre.

Rorschach9 wrote:

Creeperman wrote:

But even if you wish to disregard "Choosing Your Army" as irrelevant, how do you resolve rules such as Codex: Space Marine Chapter Tactics, which also specify the language "units in this detachment?" Does a White Scars character lose Hit & Run when joining a unit from an allied detachment? How about a Raven Guard character who is trying to confer Scout or Outflank to an allied unit joined during deployment? Does he get shunted back into normal Reserves when Outflanking? Is the unit destroyed absent permission to re-enter Reserves as soon as it declares a Scout or Outflank move with the character joined?

Gestalt unit detachment membership seems to open up a lot of holes in the ruleset. The only way I can fully resolve these situations by RAW is to use the concept of per-model membership.

The underlined is not true.

The unit that the IC attached to is still a "unit from this (grey knights NSF) detachment", no matter how you wish to parse the rules. The unit remains a unit from the detachment it was chosen from at all times. There are zero rules that change that.
The IC joining a unit from another detachment does not change the units detachment, nor does it magically remove the detachment (there are no rules to tell us the unit is no longer from X detachment). The IC is no longer a unit, so what detachment it is from is irrelevant as it belongs to a UNIT from the GK NSF detachment at this point (even though it was chosen as a member of X detachment, and remains a member of X detachment, but a member of a UNIT from GK NSF detachment for all rules purposes, including detachment rules that are based on the UNIT, not individual models).

The underlined is extremely true. Review the Chapter Tactics rules again.

Chapter Tactics, Codex: Space Marines wrote:Fight on the Move: Models in this detachment have the Hit & Run special rule. Note, this does not apply to models in units that include models in Terminator armour, Devastator Centurions or Assault Centurions.
Strike from the Shadows: Models in this detachment have the Scout special rule. In addition, on the first game turn, models in this detachment have the Stealth special rule. Note that units that include models with the Bulky or Very Bulky special rules do not benefit from either rule.

Please explain how you are allowing a White Scars or Raven Guard IC to join an allied unit while retaining their Chapter Tactics rules. You have claimed both that the gestalt unit counts as unit of the allied detachment for all rules purposes, but also still counts as a unit from the detachment the IC came from. Please cite rules that permit both of these claims to be true, without violating the restriction on how many detachments a unit can belong to.

Rorschach9 wrote:

BRB wrote:Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the
unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that
are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

Does not apply as the Rites of Teleportation is a Detachment special rule, not a unit special rule. All units from the GK NSF detachment have the rule for being part of the detachment. When the IC joins the unit, the IC is a member of the unit and so will benefit from the rule.

You're kidding here, right? I quoted the relevant section just a couple posts up. Here it is again, with emphasis:

Command Benefits, Choosing Your Army, WH40k 7E wrote:
This section of the Detachment lists any special rules or benefits that apply to some or all of the models in that Detachment. For example, the units in a Combined Arms Detachment benefit from the Ideal Mission Commander and Objective Secured special rules.

How can you claim Rites of Teleportation is not a unit special rule when the Command Benefits rules explicitly tell you that it is indeed a special rule that is applied to the member models, which then form units?

Rorschach9 wrote:

BRB wrote:Preparing Reserves
Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must
arrive together.... when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character

I have deployed my IC with the GK NSF unit. The GK NSF unit is still a unit from the GK NSF detachment (again, no rule has removed this or changed this to a nondescript unit) and so can come in T1 by making a single roll, as it is a combined reserve unit.

brb wrote:INDEPENDENT CHARACTER
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

The IC is a part of the unit for all rules purposes.

brb wrote:
DETACHMENTS

All of the units in your army must belong to a Detachment and no unit can belong to more than one Detachment. If you choose to use a Battle-forged army, you must tell your opponent what units belong
to what Detachments and what Command Benefits each will receive (if any) before you start deploying your army.

The unit must belong to a detachment. Units cannot belong to more than one detachment. I attach an IC to the GK NSF unit, what detachment is the Unit from? Why?

OK, so following this logic the IC cannot still be a member of his original chosen detachment, because he is now a member of the NSF detachment for all rules purposes. How is he still benefiting from detachment-restricted special rules, Warlord traits, from his original detachment, or adhering to Force Organization requirements? For all rules purposes means ALL rules purposes, you can't cherry pick one or the other without explicit rules permissions, which I have yet to see. Please provide quotes that allow you to pick and choose which rules purposes you are applying.

@Creeperman: That does sound pretty convincing to me, thanks.

Creeperman wrote:

Rorschach9 wrote:

Creeperman wrote:

But even if you wish to disregard "Choosing Your Army" as irrelevant, how do you resolve rules such as Codex: Space Marine Chapter Tactics, which also specify the language "units in this detachment?" Does a White Scars character lose Hit & Run when joining a unit from an allied detachment? How about a Raven Guard character who is trying to confer Scout or Outflank to an allied unit joined during deployment? Does he get shunted back into normal Reserves when Outflanking? Is the unit destroyed absent permission to re-enter Reserves as soon as it declares a Scout or Outflank move with the character joined?

Gestalt unit detachment membership seems to open up a lot of holes in the ruleset. The only way I can fully resolve these situations by RAW is to use the concept of per-model membership.

The underlined is not true.

The unit that the IC attached to is still a "unit from this (grey knights NSF) detachment", no matter how you wish to parse the rules. The unit remains a unit from the detachment it was chosen from at all times. There are zero rules that change that.
The IC joining a unit from another detachment does not change the units detachment, nor does it magically remove the detachment (there are no rules to tell us the unit is no longer from X detachment). The IC is no longer a unit, so what detachment it is from is irrelevant as it belongs to a UNIT from the GK NSF detachment at this point (even though it was chosen as a member of X detachment, and remains a member of X detachment, but a member of a UNIT from GK NSF detachment for all rules purposes, including detachment rules that are based on the UNIT, not individual models).

The underlined is extremely true. Review the Chapter Tactics rules again.

Chapter Tactics, Codex: Space Marines wrote:Fight on the Move: Models in this detachment have the Hit & Run special rule. Note, this does not apply to models in units that include models in Terminator armour, Devastator Centurions or Assault Centurions.
Strike from the Shadows: Models in this detachment have the Scout special rule. In addition, on the first game turn, models in this detachment have the Stealth special rule. Note that units that include models with the Bulky or Very Bulky special rules do not benefit from either rule.

Please explain how you are allowing a White Scars or Raven Guard IC to join an allied unit while retaining their Chapter Tactics rules. You have claimed both that the gestalt unit counts as unit of the allied detachment for all rules purposes, but also still counts as a unit from the detachment the IC came from. Please cite rules that permit both of these claims to be true, without violating the restriction on how many detachments a unit can belong to.

Note it states MODELS, not UNITS. There is a difference. I stand by my statement.

This is the last time I will state this too: I have not, nor has anyone, ever claimed that the IC (not, unit .. IC) counts as a unit of the allied detachment. The IC is a member of the unit joined for all rules purposes. The IC is no longer a unit of its own. Please read what is being said, as the continued insistence that the opposite (ie: that an IC is suddenly being counted as a unit from 1, 2, no, detachments) is even being hinted at is incorrect and brings absolutely no credibility to your argument.

Rorschach9 wrote:

BRB wrote:Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the
unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that
are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

Does not apply as the Rites of Teleportation is a Detachment special rule, not a unit special rule. All units from the GK NSF detachment have the rule for being part of the detachment. When the IC joins the unit, the IC is a member of the unit and so will benefit from the rule.

You're kidding here, right? I quoted the relevant section just a couple posts up. Here it is again, with emphasis:

Command Benefits, Choosing Your Army, WH40k 7E wrote:
This section of the Detachment lists any special rules or benefits that apply to some or all of the models in that Detachment. For example, the units in a Combined Arms Detachment benefit from the Ideal Mission Commander and Objective Secured special rules.

How can you claim Rites of Teleportation is not a unit special rule when the Command Benefits rules explicitly tell you that it is indeed a special rule that is applied to the member models, which then form units?

You highlighted something that reinforces exactly what I said, thank you. Special rules or benefits that apply to some or all of the models in that Detachment =/= unit based special rule. They are rules that apply to the detachment. Not entirely important for the debate at hand however, as the rule applies to the Unit in the NSF detachment, of which the unit is, even with an IC from another detachment attached.

Rorschach9 wrote:

BRB wrote:Preparing Reserves
Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must
arrive together.... when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character

I have deployed my IC with the GK NSF unit. The GK NSF unit is still a unit from the GK NSF detachment (again, no rule has removed this or changed this to a nondescript unit) and so can come in T1 by making a single roll, as it is a combined reserve unit.

brb wrote:INDEPENDENT CHARACTER
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

The IC is a part of the unit for all rules purposes.

brb wrote:
DETACHMENTS

All of the units in your army must belong to a Detachment and no unit can belong to more than one Detachment. If you choose to use a Battle-forged army, you must tell your opponent what units belong
to what Detachments and what Command Benefits each will receive (if any) before you start deploying your army.

The unit must belong to a detachment. Units cannot belong to more than one detachment. I attach an IC to the GK NSF unit, what detachment is the Unit from? Why?

OK, so following this logic the IC cannot still be a member of his original chosen detachment, because he is now a member of the NSF detachment for all rules purposes.

No, he his not. He is a member of the Unit, not the detachment.

How is he still benefiting from detachment-restricted special rules, Warlord traits, from his original detachment, or adhering to Force Organization requirements? For all rules purposes means ALL rules purposes, you can't cherry pick one or the other without explicit rules permissions, which I have yet to see. Please provide quotes that allow you to pick and choose which rules purposes you are applying.

The Rites of Teleportation apply to Units from the NSF Detachment. The IC is and a member of the unit joined for all rules purposes (as per the IC rules). The IC does not change detachments, nor does it have to. It is a member of a Unit, and that Unit is from the NSF detachment. I have not cherry picked any rules. All applicable rules are applied when you attach an IC from another detachment to a unit from the NSF detachment.

Blaktoof refuses to answer, maybe you will:
When an IC from Detachment X is joined to Unit from Detachment Y, what detachment is the Unit from? What rules are you following/breaking to come to that conclusion?
Does the Rites of Teleportation rule apply to the Unit or to something else? If it applies to the unit, why is the IC not a member of that unit? If it applies to something else, where is that mentioned?

Rorschach9 wrote:
Note it states MODELS, not UNITS. There is a difference. I stand by my statement.

And a unit is made up of one or more models, thus a unit has the special rules of its member models, subject to the restrictions laid out in the special rules themselves; certain rules confer benefits to only certain models, other rules benefit the entire unit, while some rules benefit only a subset of models in a unit based on other criteria (not having the Bulky rule, for instance). Regardless of scope, it's still a unit special rule.

Rorschach9 wrote:
You highlighted something that reinforces exactly what I said, thank you. Special rules or benefits that apply to some or all of the models in that Detachment =/= unit based special rule. They are rules that apply to the detachment. Not entirely important for the debate at hand however, as the rule applies to the Unit in the NSF detachment, of which the unit is, even with an IC from another detachment attached.

You're welcome, but a unit rule is still a unit rule, regardless of whether it was granted by detachment membership, wargear, army list entry, or even the application of a different special rule. I will concede that this is less relevant to the current discussion, because there's no argument that the IC in question ever has the Rites of Teleportation rule, only whether or not the rule can act upon or affect him.

Rorschach9 wrote:
Blaktoof refuses to answer, maybe you will:
When an IC from Detachment X is joined to Unit from Detachment Y, what detachment is the Unit from? What rules are you following/breaking to come to that conclusion?
Does the Rites of Teleportation rule apply to the Unit or to something else? If it applies to the unit, why is the IC not a member of that unit? If it applies to something else, where is that mentioned?

OK, I'll take a swing at it. Let's back up and re-quote the Rites of Teleportation special rule for reference.

Command Benefits, Nemesis Strike Force, Codex: Grey Knights wrote:Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one.

First, the easy question: the Rites of Teleportation special rule is possessed by any models selected as part of the NSF detachment. The attached IC never receives it, because he was not selected as part of the NSF detachment, and therefore does not gain that detachment's Command Benefits. However, the rule itself acts on the entire unit as a whole, much like the Stubborn special rule, but it contains a qualification that only allows it to act upon units in this [Grey Knights Nemesis Strike Force] detachment. As at least one model has the Rites of Teleportation rule, it attempts to act on the combined unit when you check for Reserves on turn 1, forcing us to determine whether or not the combined unit is a member of the NSF detachment.

This brings us to your first question. When you selected your army, you had a NSF detachment Y and a CAD detachment X. The IC you took from Detachment X is a member of Detachment X, and recieves all the Command Benefits and special rules commensurate with that status. Now, you declare he is joining a unit from Detachment Y. If he becomes a member of Detachment Y (following "for all rules purposes") during deployment, he then loses those Command Benefits and special rules. If he was your army's Warlord, Detachment Y must now become your primary detachment, which may leave units still in Detachment X in illegal positions or stuck in Reserves with no way to carry out their intended deployment. This may also cause you to violate your force organization requirements if you were reliant upon that character to shift FOC slots dependent upon being a primary detachment (such as marked Lords from Codex: Chaos Space Marines). Assuming you can navigate that rules quagmire without breaking the game (the aforementioned RAW are at this point already broken) then Rites of Teleportation may act upon the combined unit and it may deploy from turn 1, run & shoot, etc..

Alternatively, he may remain a member of Detachment X, which then causes Rites of Teleportation to fail as the attached character, while indeed a member of unit subject to the rule, is not himself a member of Detachment Y. Semantically, you could argue this is in violation of the proscription against multiple detachment membership, but only if you evaluate detachment membership as a gestalt entity - something that certain other parts of the rules do not do (for instance, the wording of Command Benefits, which as you noted acts upon individual models). The only way out of the conundrum is to use GW's own sloppy wording to interpret "units" synonymously with "models" to follow RAW as closely as possible, and thus clear both hurdles at the same time.

(Edited to address your edit)

Rorschach9 wrote:
This is the last time I will state this too: I have not, nor has anyone, ever claimed that the IC (not, unit .. IC) counts as a unit of the allied detachment. The IC is a member of the unit joined for all rules purposes. The IC is no longer a unit of its own. Please read what is being said, as the continued insistence that the opposite (ie: that an IC is suddenly being counted as a unit from 1, 2, no, detachments) is even being hinted at is incorrect and brings absolutely no credibility to your argument.

Then there's even less to debate. If you accept that the IC is not a member of [NSF] Detachment Y, then Rites of Teleportation does not act upon him in any case, because he is not a "unit in this [NSF] detachment," which is a explicit qualification of the rule itself.

He isn't a unit, no. He is a member of the unit however.

The unit is given the rule. Not the models, the unit.

Creeperman wrote:

Command Benefits, Nemesis Strike Force, Codex: Grey Knights wrote:Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one.

First, the easy question: the Rites of Teleportation special rule is possessed by any models selected as part of the NSF detachment.

Incorrect. It is a detachment special rule that is conferred upon units from the NSF detachment, not possessed by models. Model =/= unit, even though units are made up of models.

The attached IC never receives it, because he was not selected as part of the NSF detachment, and therefore does not gain that detachment's Command Benefits. However, the rule itself acts on the entire unit as a whole, much like the Stubborn special rule, but it contains a qualification that only allows it to act upon units in this [Grey Knights Nemesis Strike Force] detachment. As at least one model has the Rites of Teleportation rule, it attempts to act on the combined unit when you check for Reserves on turn 1, forcing us to determine whether or not the combined unit is a member of the NSF detachment.

This brings us to your first question. When you selected your army, you had a NSF detachment Y and a CAD detachment X. The IC you took from Detachment X is a member of Detachment X, and recieves all the Command Benefits and special rules commensurate with that status. Now, you declare he is joining a unit from Detachment Y.

So far, so good, yes.

If he becomes a member of Detachment Y (following "for all rules purposes") during deployment, he then loses those Command Benefits and special rules.

No. He does not change detachments. Nobody claims he changes detachments (oops, there I go breaking my promise to make that the last time i mentioned this). There are no rules to allow this. The IC is still a member of detachment X, though he is no longer a unit of his own. The IC is now a member of a Unit from detachment Y however.

If he was your army's Warlord, Detachment Y must now become your primary detachment,

As the Warlord does not change detachments (as the rules do not allow this) this is incorrect.

And the question has still not been answered. If I attaché IC from Detachment X to Unit from Detachment Y, what detachment is the Unit from? There is only one RAW answer.
Conflating Detachment/Unit/Model seems to be a major issue with the Naysayers.

Alternatively, he may remain a member of Detachment X, which then causes Rites of Teleportation to fail as the attached character, while indeed a member of unit subject to the rule, is not himself a member of Detachment Y.

Fortunately Rites of Teleportation affects the Unit, not individual models.

The only way out of the conundrum is to use GW's own sloppy wording to interpret "units" synonymously with "models" to follow RAW as closely as possible, and thus clear both hurdles at the same time.

Not altering the rules works perfectly fine if you understand how they actually interact.

Rorschach9 wrote:
This is the last time I will state this too: I have not, nor has anyone, ever claimed that the IC (not, unit .. IC) counts as a unit of the allied detachment. The IC is a member of the unit joined for all rules purposes. The IC is no longer a unit of its own. Please read what is being said, as the continued insistence that the opposite (ie: that an IC is suddenly being counted as a unit from 1, 2, no, detachments) is even being hinted at is incorrect and brings absolutely no credibility to your argument.

Then there's even less to debate. If you accept that the IC is not a member of [NSF] Detachment Y, then Rites of Teleportation does not act upon him in any case, because he is not a "unit in this [NSF] detachment," which is a explicit qualification of the rule itself.

In short, it boils down to this question:
Why does it matter what each Model possess when the Rule triggers off the Unit as a whole?

The argument has always been that this Rule targets the Unit, so there is no Restriction based on what each individual Model does or does not possess. If you believe they are incorrect, please quote the actual Restriction within the Rule which shows that the status of each individual Model must be confirmed before the Rule can be Resolved. There are Special Rules out there which target a Unit as a whole, but also contain Restrictions requiring each individual Model to have X or Y, so it is clear the Authors understand the concept of requiring a specific Restriction to over-turn a previously granted permission. So where in the body of this Rule are similar instructions telling us we do not have permission to Resolve this Rule unless all the Models in the Unit have access to it?

Rorschach9 wrote:

Creeperman wrote:

Command Benefits, Nemesis Strike Force, Codex: Grey Knights wrote:Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one.

First, the easy question: the Rites of Teleportation special rule is possessed by any models selected as part of the NSF detachment.

Incorrect. It is a detachment special rule that is conferred upon units from the NSF detachment, not possessed by models. Model =/= unit, even though units are made up of models.

And again, you are ignoring the Command Benefits rules under "Choosing Your Army." The command benefit grants a rule to the model. From that point on, the model possesses that rule. There is no RAW distinction between rules granted inherently, by wargear, or by other rules.

Rorschach9 wrote:

Creeperman wrote:
The attached IC never receives it, because he was not selected as part of the NSF detachment, and therefore does not gain that detachment's Command Benefits. However, the rule itself acts on the entire unit as a whole, much like the Stubborn special rule, but it contains a qualification that only allows it to act upon units in this [Grey Knights Nemesis Strike Force] detachment. As at least one model has the Rites of Teleportation rule, it attempts to act on the combined unit when you check for Reserves on turn 1, forcing us to determine whether or not the combined unit is a member of the NSF detachment.

This brings us to your first question. When you selected your army, you had a NSF detachment Y and a CAD detachment X. The IC you took from Detachment X is a member of Detachment X, and recieves all the Command Benefits and special rules commensurate with that status. Now, you declare he is joining a unit from Detachment Y.

So far, so good, yes.

Creeperman wrote:
If he becomes a member of Detachment Y (following "for all rules purposes") during deployment, he then loses those Command Benefits and special rules.

No. He does not change detachments. Nobody claims he changes detachments (oops, there I go breaking my promise to make that the last time i mentioned this). There are no rules to allow this. The IC is still a member of detachment X, though he is no longer a unit of his own. The IC is now a member of a Unit from detachment Y however.

If you grant unit from Detachment Y (with attached IC from Detachment X with it's own benefits) a command benefit that is explicity restricted to members of Detachment Y, how have you complied with the benefit's restrictions? You're arguing that the attached IC is a member of Detachment X, and for all rules purposes is also a member of a unit of Detachment Y. The rules prohibit this scenario, since he cannot be (or "count as for all rules purposes") a member of both detachments. There's no RAW answer to that.

Rorschach9 wrote:

Creeperman wrote:
If he was your army's Warlord, Detachment Y must now become your primary detachment,

As the Warlord does not change detachments (as the rules do not allow this) this is incorrect.

And the question has still not been answered. If I attaché IC from Detachment X to Unit from Detachment Y, what detachment is the Unit from? There is only one RAW answer.
Conflating Detachment/Unit/Model seems to be a major issue with the Naysayers.

It's a major issue due to GW's poor wording. But leaving that aside, answer my question above.

Rorschach9 wrote:

Creeperman wrote:
Alternatively, he may remain a member of Detachment X, which then causes Rites of Teleportation to fail as the attached character, while indeed a member of unit subject to the rule, is not himself a member of Detachment Y.

Fortunately Rites of Teleportation affects the Unit, not individual models.

It affects a subset of the unit, namely that part that is a member of Detachment Y.

Rorschach9 wrote:

Creeperman wrote:
The only way out of the conundrum is to use GW's own sloppy wording to interpret "units" synonymously with "models" to follow RAW as closely as possible, and thus clear both hurdles at the same time.

Not altering the rules works perfectly fine if you understand how they actually interact.

Creeperman wrote:

Rorschach9 wrote:
This is the last time I will state this too: I have not, nor has anyone, ever claimed that the IC (not, unit .. IC) counts as a unit of the allied detachment. The IC is a member of the unit joined for all rules purposes. The IC is no longer a unit of its own. Please read what is being said, as the continued insistence that the opposite (ie: that an IC is suddenly being counted as a unit from 1, 2, no, detachments) is even being hinted at is incorrect and brings absolutely no credibility to your argument.

Then there's even less to debate. If you accept that the IC is not a member of [NSF] Detachment Y, then Rites of Teleportation does not act upon him in any case, because he is not a "unit in this [NSF] detachment," which is a explicit qualification of the rule itself.

We have always accepted the IC is not a member of a different detachment than the one he was chosen for. And even addressing my edit you failed to notice that he is not a UNIT at all when joined to the Unit from the NSF detachment. Why is this so difficult to understand? The IC is a MEMBER OF A UNIT. What detachment is that UNIT from?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
He isn't a unit, no. He is a member of the unit however.

The unit is given the rule. Not the models, the unit.

Apparently this is impossible to understand as there seems to be this thought that models=units=models.

Apparently it is impossible to understand, as the command benefit Rite of Teleportation is a special rule that is explicitly granted to the MODELS. The rule itself potentially interacts with the whole unit, but is by no means necessarily granted to it.

Creeperman, if I have a unit that has a special rule that says "At the beginning of the game nominate one unit to be marked. When this unit shoots or makes close combat attacks against the marked unit, it re-rolls To Hit rolls and To Wound rolls of 1." would you claim that an attached IC does not benefit?

Why or why not?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alternatively, if I have a NSF IC attached to a CAD Troop choice, and the IC is 2.9" away from an objective (and is thee closest model), and there is an enemy HQ unit 2" away, do I claim the Objective as per Objective Secured?

Creeper - the general rule is overridden by th exceedingly specific one granting it to units. Tht appears to be the roof of your confusion on the matter.

Normally they're given to models, this is given to the unit.

It isn't even that uncommon, Game Workshop has tied a few 'Model Specific' Rules into the Unit as a whole in the past.
Every time it leads to confusion, speculation as to intent and even 'black hole' situations where the Rules stop functioning entirely....

It would be nice if they would stop doing that.

Creeperman wrote:
It affects a subset of the unit, namely that part that is a member of Detachment Y.

No, it affects the unit. You've inserted the requirement that all models in the unit be from Detachment Y - such a requirement doesn't exist in the rules.

Apparently it is impossible to understand, as the command benefit Rite of Teleportation is a special rule that is explicitly granted to the MODELS. The rule itself potentially interacts with the whole unit, but is by no means necessarily granted to it.

The IC doesn't gain the rule. We haven't asserted that it does.
Since the rule allows the unit to do something, and the unit includes the IC, why are you denying the rule can be used?

Happyjew wrote:Creeperman, if I have a unit that has a special rule that says "At the beginning of the game nominate one unit to be marked. When this unit shoots or makes close combat attacks against the marked unit, it re-rolls To Hit rolls and To Wound rolls of 1." would you claim that an attached IC does not benefit?

Why or why not?

Alternatively, if I have a NSF IC attached to a CAD Troop choice, and the IC is 2.9" away from an objective (and is thee closest model), and there is an enemy HQ unit 2" away, do I claim the Objective as per Objective Secured?

I'm assuming the stipulated IC is from a different detachment for the first case? In the case you present yes, the IC certainly does benefit from the rule, as there is no restrictive language in the special rule. If the rule instead read "At the beginning of the game nominate one unit to be marked. When units from this detachment shoot or makes close combat attacks against the marked unit, they may re-rolls To Hit rolls and To Wound rolls of 1" then I would say no, because the IC would not be a member of the detachment, as required by the rule.

In your second case I would say no, because the IC is not a member of the CAD and therefore may not receive Command Benefits that are based on detachment membership, as Objective Secured is.

WH40K 7e wrote:Objective Secured: All Troop units from this Detachment have the Objective Secured special rule. A unit with this special rule controls objectives even if any enemy scoring unit is within range of the objective marker, unless the enemy unit also has this special rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Creeper - the general rule is overridden by th exceedingly specific one granting it to units. Tht appears to be the roof of your confusion on the matter.

Normally they're given to models, this is given to the unit.

Nos -

There is no rule being granted to the unit collectively. The effect of the rule granted to the individual models targets the unit. It's like a Chaos Icon granting Fearless to a model, which then allows the entire unit to automatically pass Morale tests. In this case, every model in e.g. a GK NSF Terminator squad has the Rites of Teleportation rule, so this is a distinction without a difference until you add an outside IC to the mix. Even then, it still wouldn't make a difference except that the Rites of Teleportation special rule contains the qualifier "units from this detachment," which is what trips up the attached IC. Either you must break the rule making him part of the unit for all rules purposes, or you must break the rule making him (effectively "counts-as") part of multiple detachments at once, or you must treat detachment membership separately from unit membership.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

Creeperman wrote:
It affects a subset of the unit, namely that part that is a member of Detachment Y.

No, it affects the unit. You've inserted the requirement that all models in the unit be from Detachment Y - such a requirement doesn't exist in the rules.

It affects "units from this detachment." If a unit with that special rule is not from Detachment Y, does the unit still benefit from the rule?

rigeld2 wrote:

Creeperman wrote:
Apparently it is impossible to understand, as the command benefit Rite of Teleportation is a special rule that is explicitly granted to the MODELS. The rule itself potentially interacts with the whole unit, but is by no means necessarily granted to it.

The IC doesn't gain the rule. We haven't asserted that it does.
Since the rule allows the unit to do something, and the unit includes the IC, why are you denying the rule can be used?

Apparently Nos was asserting that units are granted (not merely affected by) the Rites of Teleportation special rule, per the post I quoted. If he was referencing something else I apologize for misunderstanding him,

I believe permission to use the rule is denied because the unit contains a model that is not "from this [NSF] detachment," and there is no way to make him (or consider him) part of the detachment without breaking other rules.

Creeperman wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Creeperman wrote:
It affects a subset of the unit, namely that part that is a member of Detachment Y.

No, it affects the unit. You've inserted the requirement that all models in the unit be from Detachment Y - such a requirement doesn't exist in the rules.

It affects "units from this detachment." If a unit with that special rule is not from Detachment Y, does the unit still benefit from the rule?

Please, demonstrate how that Strike Squad that was purchased as part of the NSF detachment is not from the NSF detachment. Use rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

Creeperman wrote:
Apparently it is impossible to understand, as the command benefit Rite of Teleportation is a special rule that is explicitly granted to the MODELS. The rule itself potentially interacts with the whole unit, but is by no means necessarily granted to it.

The IC doesn't gain the rule. We haven't asserted that it does.
Since the rule allows the unit to do something, and the unit includes the IC, why are you denying the rule can be used?

Apparently Nos was asserting that units are granted (not merely affected by) the Rites of Teleportation special rule, per the post I quoted. If he was referencing something else I apologize for misunderstanding him,

I believe permission to use the rule is denied because the unit contains a model that is not "from this [NSF] detachment," and there is no way to make him (or consider him) part of the detachment without breaking other rules.

Why is that relevant?
The unit is allowed to do something. Yes or no?
The IC is part of the unit. Yes or no?

The IC doesn't need to be (and never is, and has never been argued to have been) part of the NSF detachment.

rigeld2 wrote:
Please, demonstrate how that Strike Squad that was purchased as part of the NSF detachment is not from the NSF detachment. Use rules.

I didn't say it wasn't. I asked IF a unit somehow gained a the Rites of Teleportation special rule, as it is written in the GK codex, but was not selected as part of the the NSF detachment, could it benefit? The answer to that hypothetical is no, it cannot, because Rites of Teleportation states "Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one."

rigeld2 wrote:
Why is that relevant?
The unit is allowed to do something. Yes or no?
The IC is part of the unit. Yes or no?

The IC doesn't need to be (and never is, and has never been argued to have been) part of the NSF detachment.

It's relevant because the rules say it's relevant. The unit is allowed to do something, if it is part of the NSF detachment. The IC is part of the unit. The IC is not part of the detachment. Therefore the unit cannot use the rule without breaching RAW.

Incorrect. The unit is still from the detachment. The model isn't

Unless you are claiming the unit is from two detachments now? Please, cite actual rules to back up your flip flopping assertions

Are they part of two detachments? Yes or no. If yes, page and graph
Are they part of no detachment? As above

The rules as presented currently mean they are from th nah detachment. Literally nothing you have posted ones anywhere close to altering this fact.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Incorrect. The unit is still from the detachment. The model isn't

Unless you are claiming the unit is from two detachments now? Please, cite actual rules to back up your flip flopping assertions

Are they part of two detachments? Yes or no. If yes, page and graph
Are they part of no detachment? As above

The rules as presented currently mean they are from th nah detachment. Literally nothing you have posted ones anywhere close to altering this fact.

I have provided rules cites with every single one of my posts. The only flip-flopping going on here is on your insistence that an IC can be part of a unit for some purposes but not others.

Once again, you are claiming that the unit with attached IC is a NSF member because he's a member of the joined unit "for all purposes," (Independent Characters, Special Rules, WH40K 7E) and the joined unit, on its own, is indisputably an NSF member unit (Choosing Your Army, WH40K 7E). Simultaneously, you and everyone else have been adamant that you are not changing the IC's detachment, and that he is still a full member of it. OK then, please explain, with rules cites, how your IC is not in violation of the restriction of being a member of two detachments (Choosing Your Army, WH40K 7E), which comes part and parcel of "all rules purposes." You just reiterated he's still a CAD member, then stated he's part of the NSF "for all rules purposes" because his unit is. You have him drawing Command Benefits from both detachments (Ideal Mission Commander, Combined Arms Detachment, Choosing Your Army, WH40K 7E and Rites of Teleportation, Nemesis Strike Formation, Codex: Grey Knights). How is this possibly following RAW?

Rule, section, and chapter, please.

Can we please leave the straw-men out of this?
It has been pointed out many times that no one is stating the Independent Character switches detachment, gains the Special Rule directly or anything else which involves the Character belonging to two detachments simultaneously.

We're all in agreement the character isn't leaving his original detachment. That's not the argument.

Nos seems convinced the character gains the rule directly, as he stated in this post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Creeper - the general rule is overridden by th exceedingly specific one granting it to units. Tht appears to be the roof of your confusion on the matter.

Normally they're given to models, this is given to the unit.

The character being in two detachments at once however is the central point of argument, and for something that no one is supposedly arguing, it seems to be argued an awful lot. If detachment membership is gestalt by unit, and the joining IC isn't leaving his original detachment (because he can't, and we're all in agreement on that), then how can he also be a member of the joined unit "for all rules purposes," which is in this context being argued as a member of the Nemesis Strike Force, without also being a member of two detachments, in direct contravention of the RAW?

Detachments, Choosing your Army, WH40K 7E wrote:However, all of the units in your army must belong to a Detachment and no unit can belong to more than one Detachment.

There's no way around it, unless detachment membership isn't unit based at all, and must be evaluated per-model instead. That's my argument.