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Creeperman - I have a unit of Tac Marins. I join a Space Marine Chapter Master to the unit. Do I still have a Tac Marine unit, or is it something else?

While that is an interesting side argument, mostly in what it means to a whole bunch of other Rules, I do not see how it is relevant to the situation at hand.
The Rule grants permission for the Unit to resolve X, and lacks any Restriction based on the Models within that Unit, so what prevents the Unit from Resolving X?

 Happyjew wrote:
Creeperman - I have a unit of Tac Marins. I join a Space Marine Chapter Master to the unit. Do I still have a Tac Marine unit, or is it something else?

You have a unit of Tac Marines with an attached Chapter Master. But answer me this: I have a White Scars Tactical Squad, to which I join a Raven Guard Captain in power armor (no jump pack or bike, to keep things simpler). What special rules does the squad sergeant have by virtue of the Chapter Tactics special rule?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JinxDragon wrote:
While that is an interesting side argument, mostly in what it means to a whole bunch of other Rules, I do not see how it is relevant to the situation at hand.
The Rule grants permission for the Unit to resolve X, and lacks any Restriction based on the Models within that Unit, so what prevents the Unit from Resolving X?

If you're willing to break the rules about multiple membership? Nothing at all at that point.

Creeperman wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Creeperman - I have a unit of Tac Marins. I join a Space Marine Chapter Master to the unit. Do I still have a Tac Marine unit, or is it something else?

You have a unit of Tac Marines with an attached Chapter Master. But answer me this: I have a White Scars Tactical Squad, to which I join a Raven Guard Captain in power armor (no jump pack or bike, to keep things simpler). What special rules does the squad sergeant have by virtue of the Chapter Tactics special rule?.

He has the Hit and Run special rule. Not sure why this is relevant.

I do not think the multiple detachment membership rule exists outside of the game prior to deployment, I think it is solely there for organizing units into detachments. This is shown later in the paragraph when they reference it is being used to organize units.

If that rule existed outside of organizing an army it would mean you could not join an IC to another unit from a different detachment, and would make things like battle brothers never work for joining units together.

Rigeld2- I do not know if you are just not reading what other people post then replying to them, or are actually trying to misrepresent peoples statements. I have actually answered the question I claim I refuse to answer at least 3 times in this thread, as well as having answered it in past threads where we have had this topic discussed.

If you have 2 detachments

CAD

HQ- Chapter master
Troop- Scouts
Troop- SCouts

NSF

HQ-Brother Captain

Troops-Strikesquad
Troops-Strikesquad

Elites-Paladins

you decide to play against someone, they have whatever.

prior to deployment you write the special rules for the above units on your force roster

CAD

HQ- Chapter master, (wargear, unit special rules, reroll warlord trait[from being in detachment])

Troop- Scouts (wargear, unit special rules, ob sec [detachment])
Troop- Scouts (wargear, unit special rules, ob sec [detachment])

NSF

HQ-Brother Captain (wargear, unit special rules, Brotherhood Commander [detachment], rites of teleportation [detachment])

Troops-Strikesquad (wargear, unit special rules, rites of teleportation [detachment])
Troops-Strikesquad (wargear, unit special rules, rites of teleportation [detachment])

Elites-Paladins (wargear, unit special rules, rites of teleportation [detachment])

So you have two detachments, one is faction space marines, the other is faction grey knights. All models in each detachment have their own separate faction, and separate detachment identity as well as unit identity.

At this point you can opt to attach an IC from the NSF to the scouts. The scouts and the IC are a unit, the scouts have their own special rules and the IC has its own, neither confer special rules to each other UNLESS the special rule speficially states the entire unit benefits from it if at least one model has it.

Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

Obviously the IC is part of the unit, but does not gain the units detachment, nor the units faction. You have a unit made up of 5 scouts from a unit entry in detachment CAD and an IC from a unit entry in detachment NSF. Are all the models in the same unit? Yes. Are all the models in the unit the same faction? No. Are all the models in the same unit in the same detachment? No.

Rites of Teleportation: Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one. These units will arrive from Deep Strike Reserve on turn one on the roll of 3+. In addition, all units from this Detachment can both Run and Shoot, in any order, in the same turn that they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve.

in regards to rites of teleporation, the special rule does not specifically state it extends to all models in the unit, or the entire unit if at least one model has it, as is required by the RAW. Therefore by default an attached IC, without the rule, would not gain access to the rule & a unit without the rule attached to an IC with the rule would not gain access to the rule.


The RoT rule specifies the reserve roll can be made for any unit in that detachment. Look at the NSF detachment above, is the unit being affected in that detachment?

part of it is.

refer to the section on ICs joining units with special rules, does the special rule have the wording of stubborn/shrouded that it works on the whole unit if at least one model has it? No.

The only way the RoT would work is if it it speficially stated it extends to the unit if one model has it, or the IC/unit counted as part of the detachment.

the unit of NSF strikesquad with the joined chapter master as the same outcome. You have a model that does not have the rule, and is not in the detachment. The unit is not a unit from the NSF detachment, it is a unit with models from the NSF detachment and a model from the CAD. That is not a unit from the NSF detachment because of the presence of the model which is a unit from the CAD. There is no RAW that the IC loses its identity and counts as a member of the same detachment. If there were in this case it would also have to count as the same faction as the detachment has the clear restriction "grey knights faction only" is the IC from the CAD that faction? also no. So 2 different very clear RAW has been broken at this point claiming that the IC is part of the detachment.

The strike squad is a unit from the nsf detachment aka "any unit in this detachment from NSF detachment" the strikesquad + IC from not the detachment is not.

If anyone can find some RAW that a joined IC loses its detachment identity, or gains that of the unit it joins, feel free to post it.

blaktoof wrote:
If anyone can find some RAW that a joined IC loses its detachment identity, or gains that of the unit it joins, feel free to post it.

Why would anyone look for this? Nobody is claiming it. Please drop it.

Of course people are claiming it.

there is 0 way the IC can benefit from it otherwise due to the actual RAW.

blaktoof wrote:
Of course people are claiming it.

there is 0 way the IC can benefit from it otherwise due to the actual RAW.

No one has once claimed that the IC loses his detachment or changes detachment.

You've been informed of this multiple times. It has been repeated multiple times that we are not claiming that. You insist on bringing up that argument. You then "defeat" the argument to prove your side. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is that not the definition of a Strawman argument?

People on your side have claimed that the unit loses its Detachment when an IC joins it, however. Unless I'm mis-reading their claims.

Think it is yellow triangle of friendship time for this thread.

 Happyjew wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Of course people are claiming it.

there is 0 way the IC can benefit from it otherwise due to the actual RAW.

No one has once claimed that the IC loses his detachment or changes detachment.

You've been informed of this multiple times. It has been repeated multiple times that we are not claiming that. You insist on bringing up that argument. You then "defeat" the argument to prove your side. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is that not the definition of a Strawman argument?

People on your side have claimed that the unit loses its Detachment when an IC joins it, however. Unless I'm mis-reading their claims.

it has been claimed multiple times in this thread by certain posters that when an IC joins a unit the IC loses its faction and detachment, and somehow gains the other so they can count as a "unit in this detachment" which is a specific detachment they are not in.

not sure how you have failed to notice what you are typing.

No one on my side has claimed the unit loses its detachment, that is false and misquoted by you and others and at this point irritating that you continue to do so as the post you were replying to actually states something other than that.

simple question.

1 IC, in a CAD faction Space marines

joins a unit of strike squad in NSF faction grey knights.

is the unit, comprised of models from different detachments

or is it a unit solely of models from the NSF detachment with the faction greyknights?

blaktoof wrote:
it has been claimed multiple times in this thread by certain posters that when an IC joins a unit the IC loses its faction and detachment, and somehow gains the other so they can count as a "unit in this detachment" which is a specific detachment they are not in.

Please quote where this has been said.

No one on my side has claimed the unit loses its detachment, that is false and misquoted by you and others and at this point irritating that you continue to do so as the post you were replying to actually states something other than that.

Oh really? Perhaps you forgot this:

blaktoof wrote:
The unit is not a unit from the NSF detachment if a model in the unit is not from the NSF detachment..

simple question.

1 IC, in a CAD faction Space marines

joins a unit of strike squad in NSF faction grey knights.

is the unit, comprised of models from different detachments

or is it a unit solely of models from the NSF detachment with the faction greyknights?

It is a NSF unit composed of models from multiple detachments.

JinxDragon wrote:
Think it is yellow triangle of friendship time for this thread.

Agreed. Again blaktoof has managed to lie about the content of others posts.

Creeper - read what you quoted of me again. Note the word "UNIT", not "MODEL" is in there. While attached, the IC is NOT A UNIT any longer. THis is absolutely clear in the rules. If you disagree, I will happily shoot your IC all day long, no LOS! wounds off to anyone, regardless of his position in the attached unit. So, inadvisable.

The NSF unit has the rule. Joining the IC to the unit does not stop the unit being an NSF detachment unit, as when you come to determine "is this an NSF unit?" you MUST at THAT POINT treat the IC as a normal member of the unit for all rules purposes, and so MUST answer "YES!" in a loud, clear and strident voice.

Meaning, as the unit can evoke the rule, the unit IS from the NSF detachment and therefore meets the criteria to evoke the rule, the unit can THEN evoke the rule. Absolutely RAW this is all supported.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Think it is yellow triangle of friendship time for this thread.

Agreed. Again blaktoof has managed to lie about the content of others posts.

Creeper - read what you quoted of me again. Note the word "UNIT", not "MODEL" is in there. While attached, the IC is NOT A UNIT any longer. THis is absolutely clear in the rules. If you disagree, I will happily shoot your IC all day long, no LOS! wounds off to anyone, regardless of his position in the attached unit. So, inadvisable.

The NSF unit has the rule. Joining the IC to the unit does not stop the unit being an NSF detachment unit, as when you come to determine "is this an NSF unit?" you MUST at THAT POINT treat the IC as a normal member of the unit for all rules purposes, and so MUST answer "YES!" in a loud, clear and strident voice.

Meaning, as the unit can evoke the rule, the unit IS from the NSF detachment and therefore meets the criteria to evoke the rule, the unit can THEN evoke the rule. Absolutely RAW this is all supported.

so you have RAW to support that a unit that has models from more than 1 detachment is a unit from only one detachment.

Creeperman wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Please, demonstrate how that Strike Squad that was purchased as part of the NSF detachment is not from the NSF detachment. Use rules.

I didn't say it wasn't. I asked IF a unit somehow gained a the Rites of Teleportation special rule, as it is written in the GK codex, but was not selected as part of the the NSF detachment, could it benefit? The answer to that hypothetical is no, it cannot, because Rites of Teleportation states "Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one."

So an irrelevant hypothetical then. Awesome.

rigeld2 wrote:
Why is that relevant?
The unit is allowed to do something. Yes or no?
The IC is part of the unit. Yes or no?

The IC doesn't need to be (and never is, and has never been argued to have been) part of the NSF detachment.

It's relevant because the rules say it's relevant. The unit is allowed to do something, if it is part of the NSF detachment. The IC is part of the unit. The IC is not part of the detachment. Therefore the unit cannot use the rule without breaching RAW.

So joining an IC to the unit removes the unit from the NSF detachment?
Cite rules - because there are none that support that statement.

Looking over the 3 other threads on this topic I found a little bit of information that was never really been addressed.

Rites of Teleportation:
Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn
two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deep
Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one. These units will arrive from Deep Strike
Reserve on turn one on the roll of 3+. In addition, all units from this Detachment can
both Run and Shoot, in any order, in the same turn that they arrive from Deep Strike
Reserve.

Combined Reserve Units:
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if
any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must
arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon
any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case,
when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the
unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

The underlined is giving permission to roll for Reserves for the NSF unit and to then deploy the attached IC with it as a combined unit. The NSF unit has Rites of Teleportation (even if an IC is attached) and therefore can make the reserves roll on turn 1 as the above rule says it can. No where is it needed that all models in the unit have the rule and when rolling for reserves you do not need to roll for the IC if it is attached to the unit.

blaktoof wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Think it is yellow triangle of friendship time for this thread.

Agreed. Again blaktoof has managed to lie about the content of others posts.

Creeper - read what you quoted of me again. Note the word "UNIT", not "MODEL" is in there. While attached, the IC is NOT A UNIT any longer. THis is absolutely clear in the rules. If you disagree, I will happily shoot your IC all day long, no LOS! wounds off to anyone, regardless of his position in the attached unit. So, inadvisable.

The NSF unit has the rule. Joining the IC to the unit does not stop the unit being an NSF detachment unit, as when you come to determine "is this an NSF unit?" you MUST at THAT POINT treat the IC as a normal member of the unit for all rules purposes, and so MUST answer "YES!" in a loud, clear and strident voice.

Meaning, as the unit can evoke the rule, the unit IS from the NSF detachment and therefore meets the criteria to evoke the rule, the unit can THEN evoke the rule. Absolutely RAW this is all supported.

so you have RAW to support that a unit that has models from more than 1 detachment is a unit from only one detachment.

Yes, already quoted. "For all rules purpose". Is detachment a rules purpose? Yes? Shucks, guess it meet s the requirements then.

Deny this. Page and graph, or finally accept your position is untenable.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Think it is yellow triangle of friendship time for this thread.

Agreed. Again blaktoof has managed to lie about the content of others posts.

Creeper - read what you quoted of me again. Note the word "UNIT", not "MODEL" is in there. While attached, the IC is NOT A UNIT any longer. THis is absolutely clear in the rules. If you disagree, I will happily shoot your IC all day long, no LOS! wounds off to anyone, regardless of his position in the attached unit. So, inadvisable.

The NSF unit has the rule. Joining the IC to the unit does not stop the unit being an NSF detachment unit, as when you come to determine "is this an NSF unit?" you MUST at THAT POINT treat the IC as a normal member of the unit for all rules purposes, and so MUST answer "YES!" in a loud, clear and strident voice.

Meaning, as the unit can evoke the rule, the unit IS from the NSF detachment and therefore meets the criteria to evoke the rule, the unit can THEN evoke the rule. Absolutely RAW this is all supported.

so you have RAW to support that a unit that has models from more than 1 detachment is a unit from only one detachment.

Yes, already quoted. "For all rules purpose". Is detachment a rules purpose? Yes? Shucks, guess it meet s the requirements then.

Deny this. Page and graph, or finally accept your position is untenable.

And right back at you. Is your IC still a member of his original detachment? Is he still receiving Command Benefits from that detachment? Is he also using Rites of Teleportation under the theory that he's part of the GK NSF detachment "for all rules purposes?" Then you are breaking the rules, because you just acknowledged he's part of two detachments for all rules purposes. The restriction is a rule, which you broke. Please cite rules refuting this. Page and paragraph, thanks.

Zimko,
You are very much correct about the order of operations for the Rule interactions involved, but I doubt it will matter. All Rules quotes on the matter have been completely ignored at this point, in favour of the opposition demands that we solve a irrelevant problem before they will accept the concept. This irrelevant problem, while interesting, is nothing but a Straw-man because it is a far easier point for the opposition to argue over. It would be far easier for them to keep the debate focused on that one curiosity then to address the many Rule quotes that have been put forth....

So thank you for once more showing the order of operations which these two Rules follow, it is a shame no one is listening.

Creeper - for the purposes of the rule, the termies are still from the nsf detachment.Refute this, then your questions may be relevant.

The Terminator Squad IS from the NSF. I've said so all along. The problem is the IC who cannot join and benefit from their detachment membership as long as he has his own.

Ah, but the termie unit is still a termie unit when the IC joins.

Is the unit still from the nsf? Demonstrably yes. As in, proven, repeatedly.

The unit can thus evoke the rule.

Proven. Mark your posts hywpi please.

And the IC cannot join the unit under that interpretation, or you would be breaking the multiple detachment membership rule. Your concession is accepted, thanks.

Incorrect, as shown. The IC model is never part of more than one detachment. Done.

Creeperman wrote:
And the IC cannot join the unit under that interpretation, or you would be breaking the multiple detachment membership rule. Your concession is accepted, thanks.

Why? You have 1 unit from a single detachment.

Creeperman wrote:
The Terminator Squad IS from the NSF. I've said so all along. The problem is the IC who cannot join and benefit from their detachment membership as long as he has his own.

Please, elaborate on the underlined.

Are you saying the IC stays his own unit when he joins another one?

 Happyjew wrote:

Creeperman wrote:
And the IC cannot join the unit under that interpretation, or you would be breaking the multiple detachment membership rule. Your concession is accepted, thanks.

Why? You have 1 unit from a single detachment.

Because you have a character from a CAD, subject to Ideal Mission Commander and Objective Secured (and/or other detachment restricted rules as appropriate), joined to a NSF formation subject to Brotherhood Commander and Rites of Teleportation. He can't be subject to both. I have quoted the rule over and over again. If he can't change his detachment (and he cannot) and he can't leave his detachment (and again, he cannot) then he is part of both detachments "for all rules purposes," which include the rule against being in multiple detachments.

Q.E.D., An outside IC cannot join a NSF unit and use Rites of Teleportation, because under the interpretation just given he can't join them in the first place.

Creeperman wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Creeperman wrote:
And the IC cannot join the unit under that interpretation, or you would be breaking the multiple detachment membership rule. Your concession is accepted, thanks.

Why? You have 1 unit from a single detachment.

Because you have a character from a CAD, subject to Ideal Mission Commander and Objective Secured (and/or other detachment restricted rules as appropriate)

Creeperman,
Under your interpretation the Independent Character can never join another Unit, unless they are from the same Detachment.
How do you explain Battle Brothers having specific permission to Join Units in other Detachments?

Or you can review the Rules again, and see they have nothing to do with individual Models but focus on the Unit itself....

Rorschach9 -

You seem to be suffering from some kind of block when replying to me. I explicitly stated in bold that a character has no way to leave his detachment. Why do you keep attacking that strawman?

But more to the point, please explain to me how you are counting the character as a part of the NSF unit (and thus, as part of the NSF detachment for purposes of resolving Rites of Teleportation) without counting him as part of that unit for all other rules purposes (including the restrictions against multiple detachment membership), as stipulated by the Independent Character special rule?

You seem to be arguing now that the IC somehow now ISN'T a member of the joined squad for all purposes, or is a member for some purposes and not other more inconvenient ones. That's not what's written under the Independent Character rule.

Jinx -

Yes, that effectively does prohibit an allied IC from joining other detachment's units. It's not like this is the first time GW's sloppy RAW contradicts RAI.

Now, is that HIWPI? Of course not, but we're discussing what the rules as written actually say, not what we think GW might have meant when they wrote them.

Creeperman wrote:
Rorschach9 -

You seem to be suffering from some kind of block when replying to me. I explicitly stated in bold that a character has no way to leave his detachment. Why do you keep attacking that strawman?

I am merely being complete in my replies as some have asserted, and continue to insist (or have simply abandoned the line of thinking), that it is possible (with no rules to back it up). Apparently not complete enough.

But more to the point, please explain to me how you are counting the character as a part of the NSF unit (and thus, as part of the NSF detachment for purposes of resolving Rites of Teleportation) without counting him as part of that unit for all other rules purposes (including the restrictions against multiple detachment membership), as stipulated by the Independent Character special rule?

IC from Detachment X
Unit from NSF Detachment

This is chosen when list building. This is now done and set in stone. Nothing can change these, as there are no rules to do so. We agree on that, yes?

IC Joining a Unit

IC from Detachment X joins Unit from NSF Detachment in Deep Strike Reserve.
The IC is now a member of the unit for all rules purposes. No rules are changing detachments, so detachments of individuals in the unit at this point is irrelevant.
The Unit (which is indisputably still a Unit from the NSF detachment) is affected by Rites of Teleportation (as per the rule).
The IC is a member of that unit, and as such is affected by the same rule.
There are no restrictions in Rites of Teleportation that deny the unit from using it if any member of another detachment joined it. It is, and remains, a Unit from the NSF detachment thus complying with the special rules requirements.

The Character is part of the NSF unit, but that does not mean it is part of the NSF detachment . It is a member of a unit. That unit has a rule that affects it and that rule has no model based restrictions or qualifiers within it.

You seem to be arguing now that the IC somehow now ISN'T a member of the joined squad for all purposes, or is a member for some purposes and not other more inconvenient ones. That's not what's written under the Independent Character rule.

No, I have not once changed my argument. The IC is a member of the Unit for all rules purposes. What rules purpose am I trying to argue he is not following?
The UNIT, which he is a member of, Is still a Unit from the NSF detachment.
As such, the Unit (as a whole) is subjected to Rites of Teleportation.