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if the model is purchased from the NSF detachment, yes, if not no.
You are the one stating that whole unit counts as a unit from a singular detachment.
You are the one who needs to provide a RAW statement to prove that.
You have a NSF detachment unit, with faction grey knights(which is required to be a model in the detachment), and a CAD unit joined together.
and claim the entire unit is a unit from the NSF detachment, which means every model is in the detachment.
You need to show that the model not in the detachment counts as a model in the detachment when joined, not just the unit. as the rule in question states "units in this detachment" so it cant just count as a member of the unit, but a member of the unit in that detachment.
given that detachment additionally has the restriction of "grey knights" faction only, you also have to show RAW how the model gets to count as a member of that faction.
given that the rules for factions actually RAW show that a model does not become the units faction when joined to the unit, you will not be able to.
so how is a model not in one detachment, nor of that detachments required faction, counted as being a model in that detachment when in that unit?
it isn't.
The unit cannot be said to be a unit from the NSF detachment if a single model in it is not from the detachment. It may have models from the NSF detachment in it, but the models not from the NSF detachment- are not from the NSF detachment. There is just no RAW anywhere that states they may count as being from that detachment, which ultimately is why yourself and others are not quoting the rule-there isn't one. As a unit is made up of all the models in it, if all the models are not from the NSF detachment the unit cannot be said to be from the NSF detachment, just as it could not be said to be from the CAD because not all the models in the unit are from the CAD. It is a unit with 10 models from the NSF detachment, and 1 Model from the CAD. You can ID the models on the table, and simply point to their unit entries in your force roster which obviously show the separate detachments they are from.
if the rule itself stated that any model in the unit had the rule, or if any model in the unit was from that detachment, then it would extend to the whole unit. It does not however, and such wording is required as per the section on ICs in units with special rules that are different than what the IC has, because as has been explained to yourself and others the IC never gets said special rule as it is given to models in units from certain detachments prior to deployment when the IC could not have been joined, further the rule does not have the wording required that it must specify it extends to the entire unit if one model has it, e.g. stubborn.
therefore unless you can state a RAW passage that there is permission for the model to count as a member of the detachment when joined to it, which in this class would also include faction as otherwise you have a model with a faction type that is not allowed by that detachment- the model cannot benefit from the special rule that it never gains access to as it is never in that detachment.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/11/03 15:35:09
Ah, so youre breaking the IC rule then. Cheating, in other words.
Good to know.
A terminator is a normal member of the terminator unit, and as said normal member is from the NSF detachment any other thing treated as a normal member must also be treated as a normal member of the nsf detachment, otherwise you are NOT treating it as directed. Thats a really easy rule.
Your wall of text does nothing but obscure the fact you are ignoring one of the most all encompassing, plainly written rules in the book, and doing so without a single shred of evidence as to why youre breaking this rule.
Not a sausage.
As such your argument remains a mere unfounded assertion, nothing more. Mark your posts accordingly.
please state in the IC rules where it says a joined IC becomes the detachment and faction of the unit it joined. Or just admit its HYWPI.
If you mean the IC rule that says "counts as a member of the unit for all purposes" that's great, does it count as a member of the units unit entry? so does an Chapter master use the profile of a scout when in a scout unit, or a scout sergeant, because those are the only profiles in that unit and its a member of the unit for all purposes right? it even gets the same faction, and its wargear must be the same as the units right? I am sure your cool with that, as its RAW according to you. Or can you find an entry in the scouts unit that has a statline / wargear selection for a chapter master?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/03 15:39:18
if the model is purchased from the NSF detachment, yes, if not no.
You are the one stating that whole unit counts as a unit from a singular detachment.
You are the one who needs to provide a RAW statement to prove that.
You have a NSF detachment unit, with faction grey knights(which is required to be a model in the detachment), and a CAD unit joined together.
and claim the entire unit is a unit from the NSF detachment, which means every model is in the detachment.
You need to show that the model not in the detachment counts as a model in the detachment when joined, not just the unit. as the rule in question states "units in this detachment" so it cant just count as a member of the unit, but a member of the unit in that detachment.
given that detachment additionally has the restriction of "grey knights" faction only, you also have to show RAW how the model gets to count as a member of that faction.
given that the rules for factions actually RAW show that a model does not become the units faction when joined to the unit, you will not be able to.
so how is a model not in one detachment, nor of that detachments required faction, counted as being a model in that detachment when in that unit?
it isn't.
The unit cannot be said to be a unit from the NSF detachment if a single model in it is not from the detachment.
if the rule itself stated that any model in the unit had the rule, or if any model in the unit was from that detachment, then it would extend to the whole unit. It does not however, and such wording is required as per the section on ICs in units with special rules that are different than what the IC has, because as has been explained to yourself and others the IC never gets said special rule as it is given to models in units from certain detachments prior to deployment when the IC could not have been joined, further the rule does not have the wording required that it must specify it extends to the entire unit if one model has it, e.g. stubborn.
therefore unless you can state a RAW passage that there is permission for the model to count as a member of the detachment when joined to it, which in this class would also include faction as otherwise you have a model with a faction type that is not allowed by that detachment- the model cannot benefit from the special rule that it never gains access to as it is never in that detachment.
There is no need to show in RAW permission for the IC to be a member of the NSF detachment because the NSF unit is already a member if the NSF detachment and the IC rules state that once attached, the IC counts as a member of that unit. The IC never loses its Detachment status. The NSF unit never loses its Detachment status. The IC simply counts as a member of the NSF unit for all rules purposes unless specifically noted, and there are no specific restrictions noted for disqualifying either the IC or the NSF unit from using the Rites of Teleportation because the Rtes is conferred to the NSF unit as a whole, not to the individual models in the NSF unit such as the Deep Strike USR. IC doesn't have Deep Strike, then the IC cannot join a NSF unit in Deep Strike Reserves. The NSF unit does not have Deep Strike, then a Deep Striking IC would not be able to confer its USR to the NSF unit. Pretty standard stuff. Rites of Teleportation, for all intends and purposes, is a vehicle for deploying a Deep Striking unit on Turn 1 rather than Turn 2, much like a Drop Pod except that its a Detachment benefit rather than a Transport.
The rules for ICs joining other units, the rules for combined units, and the lack of restrictive wording in the permission Rites of Teleportation rule allows for any non-NSF Deep Striking IC to benefit from Rites when attached to a Deep Striking NSF unit.
Your wall of text did not address any RAW restriction that would prevent a non-NSF Deep Striking IC from benefiting from the Rites of Teleportation being used by the NSF Deep Striking unit said IC has joined.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
if the model is purchased from the NSF detachment, yes, if not no.
You are the one stating that whole unit counts as a unit from a singular detachment.
You are the one who needs to provide a RAW statement to prove that.
You have a NSF detachment unit, with faction grey knights(which is required to be a model in the detachment), and a CAD unit joined together.
and claim the entire unit is a unit from the NSF detachment, which means every model is in the detachment.
You need to show that the model not in the detachment counts as a model in the detachment when joined, not just the unit. as the rule in question states "units in this detachment" so it cant just count as a member of the unit, but a member of the unit in that detachment.
given that detachment additionally has the restriction of "grey knights" faction only, you also have to show RAW how the model gets to count as a member of that faction.
given that the rules for factions actually RAW show that a model does not become the units faction when joined to the unit, you will not be able to.
so how is a model not in one detachment, nor of that detachments required faction, counted as being a model in that detachment when in that unit?
it isn't.
The unit cannot be said to be a unit from the NSF detachment if a single model in it is not from the detachment.
if the rule itself stated that any model in the unit had the rule, or if any model in the unit was from that detachment, then it would extend to the whole unit. It does not however, and such wording is required as per the section on ICs in units with special rules that are different than what the IC has, because as has been explained to yourself and others the IC never gets said special rule as it is given to models in units from certain detachments prior to deployment when the IC could not have been joined, further the rule does not have the wording required that it must specify it extends to the entire unit if one model has it, e.g. stubborn.
therefore unless you can state a RAW passage that there is permission for the model to count as a member of the detachment when joined to it, which in this class would also include faction as otherwise you have a model with a faction type that is not allowed by that detachment- the model cannot benefit from the special rule that it never gains access to as it is never in that detachment.
There is no need to show in RAW permission for the IC to be a member of the NSF detachment because the NSF unit is already a member if the NSF detachment and the IC rules state that once attached, the IC counts as a member of that unit. The IC never loses its Detachment status. The NSF unit never loses its Detachment status. The IC simply counts as a member of the NSF unit for all rules purposes unless specifically noted, and there are no specific restrictions noted for disqualifying either the IC or the NSF unit from using the Rites of Teleportation because the Rtes is conferred to the NSF unit as a whole, not to the individual models in the NSF unit such as the Deep Strike USR. IC doesn't have Deep Strike, then the IC cannot join a NSF unit in Deep Strike Reserves. The NSF unit does not have Deep Strike, then a Deep Striking IC would not be able to confer its USR to the NSF unit. Pretty standard stuff. Rites of Teleportation, for all intends and purposes, is a vehicle for deploying a Deep Striking unit on Turn 1 rather than Turn 2, much like a Drop Pod except that its a Detachment benefit rather than a Transport.
The rules for ICs joining other units, the rules for combined units, and the lack of restrictive wording in the permission Rites of Teleportation rule allows for any non-NSF Deep Striking IC to benefit from Rites when attached to a Deep Striking NSF unit.
Your wall of text did not address any RAW restriction that would prevent a non-NSF Deep Striking IC from benefiting from the Rites of Teleportation being used by the NSF Deep Striking unit said IC has joined.
SJ
unfortunately as you have once again failed to address that RAW that the RoT rule does not benefit the 'unit', but the 'unit in that detachment' and have blanket folded the IC into the detachment without any RAW support that you may do so- the rest of your commentary is without any real merit on the topic.
blaktoof wrote: please state in the IC rules where it says a joined IC becomes the detachment and faction of the unit it joined. Or just admit its HYWPI.
Not the argument being made.
Is a Terminator unit that is purchased as part of a NSF detachment still part of the NSF detachment when joined by a Codex: SMIC?
If not, what detachment is it a member of? Please quote rules (or re-quote if required) to support your statements. In other words, show your work.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
blaktoof wrote: please state in the IC rules where it says a joined IC becomes the detachment and faction of the unit it joined. Or just admit its HYWPI.
Not the argument being made.
Is a Terminator unit that is purchased as part of a NSF detachment still part of the NSF detachment when joined by a Codex: SMIC?
If not, what detachment is it a member of? Please quote rules (or re-quote if required) to support your statements. In other words, show your work.
Ive answered this question many times for you already.
yes the terminator unit is still from the NSF detachment
the unit of IC+Terminator unit is not from the NSF detachment, it is from the NSF detachment and a CAD detachment.
you have to state RAW permission that the model from the CAD detachment can count as being in the NSF detachment/faction.
the rule for RoT does not state if any models that are units from that detachment, it states the unit has to be from that detachment.
is a [CADIC + NSF detachment unit] = a unit from the NSF detachment? obvioulsy one of the models is not, please state the RAW that says it may count as being in that detachment so that the unit is in the NSF detachment, not just some of the models in the unit.
Write up a force roster, combine an IC from a CAD and a squad from a NSF and tell me the unit comes from the NSF detachment, then show my on the unit roster where the units models come from and tell me those are all the NSF detachment, or show the rule that lets you count the one that is not from the NSF detachment as from it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/03 16:03:37
blaktoof wrote: please state in the IC rules where it says a joined IC becomes the detachment and faction of the unit it joined. Or just admit its HYWPI.
Not the argument being made.
Is a Terminator unit that is purchased as part of a NSF detachment still part of the NSF detachment when joined by a Codex: SMIC?
If not, what detachment is it a member of? Please quote rules (or re-quote if required) to support your statements. In other words, show your work.
Ive answered this question many times for you already.
yes the terminator unit is still from the NSF detachment
the unit of IC+Terminator unit is not from the NSF detachment, it is from the NSF detachment and a CAD detachment
Um. Have you ever quoted a rule that allows a single unit to be a member of more than one detachment?
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
So Blaktoof again, you now break a different rule, which is that a unit can only be a member of a single detachment?
Not very convincing as an argument.
The IC is a normal member of the unit for all rules purposes. A normal member of the unit - a GKT - is a member of the NSF detachment and is part of a NSF unit. Therefore, when evaluating whether this unit is from the NSF detachment, you MUST answer yes when an IC is joined, otherwise you are not treating the IC in accordance with that rule
The rest of your waffle is just that.
Please, cite a rule that actually has any relevance, cite a rule that shows your allowance to break BOTH the IC and the Detachment rules. Something. Anything.
Further refusal will be noted as your failure to follow the tenets, again.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/03 16:10:16
nosferatu1001 wrote: So Blaktoof again, you now break a different rule, which is that a unit can only be a member of a single detachment?
Not very convincing as an argument.
The IC is a normal member of the unit for all rules purposes. A normal member of the unit - a GKT - is a member of the NSF detachment and is part of a NSF unit. Therefore, when evaluating whether this unit is from the NSF detachment, you MUST answer yes when an IC is joined, otherwise you are not treating the IC in accordance with that rule
The rest of your waffle is just that.
Please, cite a rule that actually has any relevance, cite a rule that shows your allowance to break BOTH the IC and the Detachment rules. Something. Anything.
Further refusal will be noted as your failure to follow the tenets, again.
considering your request to cite rules, and I have verbatim, and you have cited 0 its pretty hypocritical to request such a thing.
regardless...
your continued inability to cite a relevant rule is pretty telling.
regarding your statement on an a single unit can only be from a single detachment, if you actually stated the entire rule that would be nice.
as it has been quoted from the BRB twice now in this thread by myself, to paraphrase- that rule is in regards to organizing your force roster, not during the game. Please stop cherry picking.
So you actually believe the IC from a different detachment/faction becomes a member of the faction/detachment of the unit it joins, but have no rules support for the permission.
noted your HYWPI stance is, wrong it still remains.
if the model is purchased from the NSF detachment, yes, if not no.
You are the one stating that whole unit counts as a unit from a singular detachment.
You are the one who needs to provide a RAW statement to prove that.
You have a NSF detachment unit, with faction grey knights(which is required to be a model in the detachment), and a CAD unit joined together.
and claim the entire unit is a unit from the NSF detachment, which means every model is in the detachment.
You need to show that the model not in the detachment counts as a model in the detachment when joined, not just the unit. as the rule in question states "units in this detachment" so it cant just count as a member of the unit, but a member of the unit in that detachment.
given that detachment additionally has the restriction of "grey knights" faction only, you also have to show RAW how the model gets to count as a member of that faction.
given that the rules for factions actually RAW show that a model does not become the units faction when joined to the unit, you will not be able to.
so how is a model not in one detachment, nor of that detachments required faction, counted as being a model in that detachment when in that unit?
it isn't.
The unit cannot be said to be a unit from the NSF detachment if a single model in it is not from the detachment.
if the rule itself stated that any model in the unit had the rule, or if any model in the unit was from that detachment, then it would extend to the whole unit. It does not however, and such wording is required as per the section on ICs in units with special rules that are different than what the IC has, because as has been explained to yourself and others the IC never gets said special rule as it is given to models in units from certain detachments prior to deployment when the IC could not have been joined, further the rule does not have the wording required that it must specify it extends to the entire unit if one model has it, e.g. stubborn.
therefore unless you can state a RAW passage that there is permission for the model to count as a member of the detachment when joined to it, which in this class would also include faction as otherwise you have a model with a faction type that is not allowed by that detachment- the model cannot benefit from the special rule that it never gains access to as it is never in that detachment.
There is no need to show in RAW permission for the IC to be a member of the NSF detachment because the NSF unit is already a member if the NSF detachment and the IC rules state that once attached, the IC counts as a member of that unit. The IC never loses its Detachment status. The NSF unit never loses its Detachment status. The IC simply counts as a member of the NSF unit for all rules purposes unless specifically noted, and there are no specific restrictions noted for disqualifying either the IC or the NSF unit from using the Rites of Teleportation because the Rtes is conferred to the NSF unit as a whole, not to the individual models in the NSF unit such as the Deep Strike USR. IC doesn't have Deep Strike, then the IC cannot join a NSF unit in Deep Strike Reserves. The NSF unit does not have Deep Strike, then a Deep Striking IC would not be able to confer its USR to the NSF unit. Pretty standard stuff. Rites of Teleportation, for all intends and purposes, is a vehicle for deploying a Deep Striking unit on Turn 1 rather than Turn 2, much like a Drop Pod except that its a Detachment benefit rather than a Transport.
The rules for ICs joining other units, the rules for combined units, and the lack of restrictive wording in the permission Rites of Teleportation rule allows for any non-NSF Deep Striking IC to benefit from Rites when attached to a Deep Striking NSF unit.
Your wall of text did not address any RAW restriction that would prevent a non-NSF Deep Striking IC from benefiting from the Rites of Teleportation being used by the NSF Deep Striking unit said IC has joined.
SJ
unfortunately as you have once again failed to address that RAW that the RoT rule does not benefit the 'unit', but the 'unit in that detachment' and have blanket folded the IC into the detachment without any RAW support that you may do so- the rest of your commentary is without any real merit on the topic.
I did address it. RAW states that Rites is benefit of units from a NSF. As a Deep Striking NSF unit, the unit benefits from Rites. Regardless of were an IC came from, as long as the IC is a Battle Brother and has Deep Strike, the IC may join a NSF unit that is in Deep Strike Reserves. If so, per RAW, the Combine unit rolls one Die to arrive and will get to roll that one die on turn 1 due to Rites.
No rules, limits, or restrictions exist currently in the game that counters an IC's permission to join a unit in a different detachment.
No rules, limits, or restrictions exist currently in the game that denies a NSF unit from benefiting from Rites of Teleportation if all models in the unit are in Deep Strike Reserves.
No rules, limits, or restrictions exist currently in the game that removes the Detachment status from any unit in the game, regardless of which Detachment said unit legally joins during the game.
If you believe otherwise, please cite the missing rule, limit, or restriction to prove your point. Stating someone is wrong without backing up your position with facts is an automatic failure in your argument. The burden of proof is on you, as the RAW clearly supports my position.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
if the model is purchased from the NSF detachment, yes, if not no.
You are the one stating that whole unit counts as a unit from a singular detachment.
You are the one who needs to provide a RAW statement to prove that.
You have a NSF detachment unit, with faction grey knights(which is required to be a model in the detachment), and a CAD unit joined together.
and claim the entire unit is a unit from the NSF detachment, which means every model is in the detachment.
You need to show that the model not in the detachment counts as a model in the detachment when joined, not just the unit. as the rule in question states "units in this detachment" so it cant just count as a member of the unit, but a member of the unit in that detachment.
given that detachment additionally has the restriction of "grey knights" faction only, you also have to show RAW how the model gets to count as a member of that faction.
given that the rules for factions actually RAW show that a model does not become the units faction when joined to the unit, you will not be able to.
so how is a model not in one detachment, nor of that detachments required faction, counted as being a model in that detachment when in that unit?
it isn't.
The unit cannot be said to be a unit from the NSF detachment if a single model in it is not from the detachment.
if the rule itself stated that any model in the unit had the rule, or if any model in the unit was from that detachment, then it would extend to the whole unit. It does not however, and such wording is required as per the section on ICs in units with special rules that are different than what the IC has, because as has been explained to yourself and others the IC never gets said special rule as it is given to models in units from certain detachments prior to deployment when the IC could not have been joined, further the rule does not have the wording required that it must specify it extends to the entire unit if one model has it, e.g. stubborn.
therefore unless you can state a RAW passage that there is permission for the model to count as a member of the detachment when joined to it, which in this class would also include faction as otherwise you have a model with a faction type that is not allowed by that detachment- the model cannot benefit from the special rule that it never gains access to as it is never in that detachment.
There is no need to show in RAW permission for the IC to be a member of the NSF detachment because the NSF unit is already a member if the NSF detachment and the IC rules state that once attached, the IC counts as a member of that unit. The IC never loses its Detachment status. The NSF unit never loses its Detachment status. The IC simply counts as a member of the NSF unit for all rules purposes unless specifically noted, and there are no specific restrictions noted for disqualifying either the IC or the NSF unit from using the Rites of Teleportation because the Rtes is conferred to the NSF unit as a whole, not to the individual models in the NSF unit such as the Deep Strike USR. IC doesn't have Deep Strike, then the IC cannot join a NSF unit in Deep Strike Reserves. The NSF unit does not have Deep Strike, then a Deep Striking IC would not be able to confer its USR to the NSF unit. Pretty standard stuff. Rites of Teleportation, for all intends and purposes, is a vehicle for deploying a Deep Striking unit on Turn 1 rather than Turn 2, much like a Drop Pod except that its a Detachment benefit rather than a Transport.
The rules for ICs joining other units, the rules for combined units, and the lack of restrictive wording in the permission Rites of Teleportation rule allows for any non-NSF Deep Striking IC to benefit from Rites when attached to a Deep Striking NSF unit.
Your wall of text did not address any RAW restriction that would prevent a non-NSF Deep Striking IC from benefiting from the Rites of Teleportation being used by the NSF Deep Striking unit said IC has joined.
SJ
unfortunately as you have once again failed to address that RAW that the RoT rule does not benefit the 'unit', but the 'unit in that detachment' and have blanket folded the IC into the detachment without any RAW support that you may do so- the rest of your commentary is without any real merit on the topic.
I did address it. RAW states that Rites is benefit of units from a NSF. As a Deep Striking NSF unit, the unit benefits from Rites. Regardless of were an IC came from, as long as the IC is a Battle Brother and has Deep Strike, the IC may join a NSF unit that is in Deep Strike Reserves. If so, per RAW, the Combine unit rolls one Die to arrive and will get to roll that one die on turn 1 due to Rites.
No rules, limits, or restrictions exist currently in the game that counters an IC's permission to join a unit in a different detachment.
No rules, limits, or restrictions exist currently in the game that denies a NSF unit from benefiting from Rites of Teleportation if all models in the unit are in Deep Strike Reserves.
No rules, limits, or restrictions exist currently in the game that removes the Detachment status from any unit in the game, regardless of which Detachment said unit legally joins during the game.
If you believe otherwise, please cite the missing rule, limit, or restriction to prove your point. Stating someone is wrong without backing up your position with facts is an automatic failure in your argument. The burden of proof is on you, as the RAW clearly supports my position.
SJ
that's not what the rites rule says which is why I quoted it for about the 4th time in this thread up above.
it specifies you can make reserves rolls for units in the nsf detachment.
the IC is not in the NSF detachment.
You and anyone else have yet to show anywhere that the unit is a grey knights unit chosen from the NSF detachment when one of the models in it is not chosen from that detachment, and does not have the required grey knights faction to be in that detachment.
blaktoof wrote: please state in the IC rules where it says a joined IC becomes the detachment and faction of the unit it joined. Or just admit its HYWPI.
Not the argument being made.
Is a Terminator unit that is purchased as part of a NSF detachment still part of the NSF detachment when joined by a Codex: SMIC?
If not, what detachment is it a member of? Please quote rules (or re-quote if required) to support your statements. In other words, show your work.
Ive answered this question many times for you already.
yes the terminator unit is still from the NSF detachment
the unit of IC+Terminator unit is not from the NSF detachment, it is from the NSF detachment and a CAD detachment
Um. Have you ever quoted a rule that allows a single unit to be a member of more than one detachment?
Still waiting.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
Blak - nope, the unit is from the detachment. We know, and ha proven, this to be true.
Cite your rule allowing you to break rp the IC rule. Still waiting
Exact page and graph. No more of your gak, please follow the tenets for once this thread.
that's not what the rites rule says which is why I quoted it for about the 4th time in this thread up above.
it specifies you can make reserves rolls for units in the nsf detachment.
the IC is not in the NSF detachment.
You and anyone else have yet to show anywhere that the unit is a grey knights unit chosen from the NSF detachment when one of the models in it is not chosen from that detachment, and does not have the required grey knights faction to be in that detachment.
It has been explained and rules quoted numerous times, you simply choose to ignore the facts.
Detachment rules have been provided.
No rules allow a unit to change detachments (or lose its detachment, as you seem to imply)
The IC, when joined, is no longer a unit of its own but a member of the Unit it joined.
The unit it joined remains (as per the rules or lack of rules allowing this to change) a unit in the NSF detachment
The unit is allowed to use RoT.
Please, provide (as asked dozens of times) the rules that allow the unit to no longer be in the NSF detachment. One rule stating such will suffice. Without one, there is no way the unit can change or lose its detachment and the unit remains undisputibly a unit in the NSF detachment.
Given the only person posting against this is blak, who cannot cite a single relevant rules, is insulting, and generally doesn't follow the tenets, is it worth stopping here?
I don't think a single poster reading this thread will be at all convinced by their argument, so there is little to be gained from continually correcting them, and it is clear blak will stubbornly stick to their guns, despite all the evidence to the contrary.
If you both to actually read the IC rules and the combined unit rules, you will note that a BB IC that joins a BB unit counts as a member of that unit FOR ALL RULES PURPOSES. That means that when taking into account whether or not a unit is from a NSF Detachment and therefore may benefit from Rites, any attached IC would in fact count as a legitament member of the NSF unit. They only exception to this is when another rule specifically states that is benefits do not confer.
Per GW's usual awesome rules writing, the IC rules contradict the basic rules of the game. Also per GW's usual awesome rules writing, a more advanced rule trumps a basic rule, and a codex rule trumps a rule book rule whenever there is a conflict. In the case of Rites, there is no conflict with the IC rules. The IC is for all rules purposes a member of the NSF unit, and therefore will not prevent the NSF unit from using Rites.
Does you know what would prevent Rites? The IC not being able to Deep Strike. No Deep Strike, no Rites. This means that Purifiers in Space Wolf Drop Pods do benefit from Rites, because:
1 - If the Purifiers are bought as part of a NSF Detachment, the Purifiers are a NSF unit and gain the benefit of Rites.
2 - Per the rules for Deep Striking Transports, the Deep Strike USR is conferred to any embarked units.
3 - Per the Combine Unit rules, both the Purifiers and the Drop Pod count as a single unit in reserve, and a single Die is rolled to determine arrive.
4 - Per Rites, the Purifiers and Drop Pod can legally roll to arrive on Turn 1.
This is no different from a non-NSF IC with Deep Strike that is attached to a NSF unit with Deep Strike benefitting from Rites.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
that's not what the rites rule says which is why I quoted it for about the 4th time in this thread up above.
it specifies you can make reserves rolls for units in the nsf detachment.
the IC is not in the NSF detachment.
You and anyone else have yet to show anywhere that the unit is a grey knights unit chosen from the NSF detachment when one of the models in it is not chosen from that detachment, and does not have the required grey knights faction to be in that detachment.
It has been explained and rules quoted numerous times, you simply choose to ignore the facts.
Detachment rules have been provided.
No rules allow a unit to change detachments (or lose its detachment, as you seem to imply)
The IC, when joined, is no longer a unit of its own but a member of the Unit it joined.
The unit it joined remains (as per the rules or lack of rules allowing this to change) a unit in the NSF detachment
The unit is allowed to use RoT.
Please, provide (as asked dozens of times) the rules that allow the unit to no longer be in the NSF detachment. One rule stating such will suffice. Without one, there is no way the unit can change or lose its detachment and the unit remains undisputibly a unit in the NSF detachment.
it has been explained with the RAW numerous times, unlike your claim where no one on your said has actually been able to support that the model counts as the faction/detachment that it is joined to.
the unit has models in it from the NSF detachment, but the unit is not from the NSF detachment entirely as it has models from another detachment in it, therefore the the unit is not "in this detachment" the NSF detachment because it contains models that are not. If the special rule were to extend to the whole unit it would have to specifically state that if at least one model in the unit is from the detachment then it may, which is required by the RAW which you + others like to ignore so you can break it and essentially cheat.
and as requested no one has been able to show permission for the unit to count as being a unit from x when it contains a model from y.
please provide as has been asked dozens of times, the rules that allow the unit to count as being from detachment NSF when it contains models that are not the required faction and are chosen from another detachment that is not NSF.
The IC, when joined, is no longer a unit of its own but a member of the Unit it joined.
so you believe it loses its detachment its from, gains the detachment of the unit it joins, or what? Please explain with quoted RAW.
you beleive it becomes the faction required to be in that detachment despite the rules for joining battlebrothers never stating they change faction, nor the rules for IC stating they change faction to the unit they join so they can fall into the RAW restrictions for the NSF detachment? please explain with quoted RAW.
you can probably link the RAW where it states you may count as, or become those things as you+ others supposedly have done so dozens of times, or you can continue to throw up the strawman that "its part of the unit therefore despite not being written anywhere its part of the same detachment faction because no RAW stated reasons" as the reason, which is completely wrong, made up, and goes against the RAW.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/04 15:52:10
that's not what the rites rule says which is why I quoted it for about the 4th time in this thread up above.
it specifies you can make reserves rolls for units in the nsf detachment.
the IC is not in the NSF detachment.
You and anyone else have yet to show anywhere that the unit is a grey knights unit chosen from the NSF detachment when one of the models in it is not chosen from that detachment, and does not have the required grey knights faction to be in that detachment.
It has been explained and rules quoted numerous times, you simply choose to ignore the facts.
Detachment rules have been provided.
No rules allow a unit to change detachments (or lose its detachment, as you seem to imply)
The IC, when joined, is no longer a unit of its own but a member of the Unit it joined.
The unit it joined remains (as per the rules or lack of rules allowing this to change) a unit in the NSF detachment
The unit is allowed to use RoT.
Please, provide (as asked dozens of times) the rules that allow the unit to no longer be in the NSF detachment. One rule stating such will suffice. Without one, there is no way the unit can change or lose its detachment and the unit remains undisputibly a unit in the NSF detachment.
it has been explained with the RAW numerous times, unlike your claim where no one on your said has actually been able to support that the model counts as the faction/detachment that it is joined to.
the unit has models in it from the NSF detachment, but the unit is not from the NSF detachment entirely as it has models from another detachment in it, therefore the the unit is not "in this detachment" the NSF detachment because it contains models that are not. If the special rule were to extend to the whole unit it would have to specifically state that if at least one model in the unit is from the detachment then it may, which is required by the RAW which you + others like to ignore so you can break it and essentially cheat.
and as requested no one has been able to show permission for the unit to count as being a unit from x when it contains a model from y.
please provide as has been asked dozens of times, the rules that allow the unit to count as being from detachment NSF when it contains models that are not the required faction and are chosen from another detachment that is not NSF.
As has been provided, but here, I'll provide it for you again;
BRB wrote:However, all of the units in your army must belong to a Detachment and no unit can belong to more than one Detachment.
The IC, when joined, is no longer a unit of its own but a member of the Unit it joined.
so you believe it loses its detachment its from, gains the detachment of the unit it joins, or what? Please explain with quoted RAW.
you beleive it becomes the faction required to be in that detachment despite the rules for joining battlebrothers never stating they change faction, nor the rules for IC stating they change faction to the unit they join so they can fall into the RAW restrictions for the NSF detachment? please explain with quoted RAW.
you can probably link the RAW where it states you may count as, or become those things as you+ others supposedly have done so dozens of times, or you can continue to throw up the strawman that "its part of the unit therefore despite not being written anywhere its part of the same detachment faction because no RAW stated reasons" as the reason, which is completely wrong, made up, and goes against the RAW.
No. I do not believe that and never have said that. You've been told this countless times but continue to bring it up.
I believe, as per the rules, the IC becomes a member of the unit it joins for all rules purposes;
BRB wrote:
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.
The IC's faction/detachment is quite irrelevant. The Unit he is a member of is a Unit in the NSF detachment. Please, provide the rule that changes this.
We're done here. Rules have been provided to show you the error of your ways, numerous times, and you continue to attempt to change the goal posts or mislead/misquote others arguments as a defense.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/04 16:00:13
that's not what the rites rule says which is why I quoted it for about the 4th time in this thread up above.
it specifies you can make reserves rolls for units in the nsf detachment.
the IC is not in the NSF detachment.
You and anyone else have yet to show anywhere that the unit is a grey knights unit chosen from the NSF detachment when one of the models in it is not chosen from that detachment, and does not have the required grey knights faction to be in that detachment.
It has been explained and rules quoted numerous times, you simply choose to ignore the facts.
Detachment rules have been provided.
No rules allow a unit to change detachments (or lose its detachment, as you seem to imply)
The IC, when joined, is no longer a unit of its own but a member of the Unit it joined.
The unit it joined remains (as per the rules or lack of rules allowing this to change) a unit in the NSF detachment
The unit is allowed to use RoT.
Please, provide (as asked dozens of times) the rules that allow the unit to no longer be in the NSF detachment. One rule stating such will suffice. Without one, there is no way the unit can change or lose its detachment and the unit remains undisputibly a unit in the NSF detachment.
it has been explained with the RAW numerous times, unlike your claim where no one on your said has actually been able to support that the model counts as the faction/detachment that it is joined to.
the unit has models in it from the NSF detachment, but the unit is not from the NSF detachment entirely as it has models from another detachment in it, therefore the the unit is not "in this detachment" the NSF detachment because it contains models that are not. If the special rule were to extend to the whole unit it would have to specifically state that if at least one model in the unit is from the detachment then it may, which is required by the RAW which you + others like to ignore so you can break it and essentially cheat.
and as requested no one has been able to show permission for the unit to count as being a unit from x when it contains a model from y.
please provide as has been asked dozens of times, the rules that allow the unit to count as being from detachment NSF when it contains models that are not the required faction and are chosen from another detachment that is not NSF.
As has been provided, but here, I'll provide it for you again;
BRB wrote:However, all of the units in your army must belong to a Detachment and no unit can belong to more than one Detachment.
The IC, when joined, is no longer a unit of its own but a member of the Unit it joined.
so you believe it loses its detachment its from, gains the detachment of the unit it joins, or what? Please explain with quoted RAW.
you beleive it becomes the faction required to be in that detachment despite the rules for joining battlebrothers never stating they change faction, nor the rules for IC stating they change faction to the unit they join so they can fall into the RAW restrictions for the NSF detachment? please explain with quoted RAW.
you can probably link the RAW where it states you may count as, or become those things as you+ others supposedly have done so dozens of times, or you can continue to throw up the strawman that "its part of the unit therefore despite not being written anywhere its part of the same detachment faction because no RAW stated reasons" as the reason, which is completely wrong, made up, and goes against the RAW.
No. I do not believe that and never have said that. You've been told this countless times but continue to bring it up.
I believe, as per the rules, the IC becomes a member of the unit it joins for all rules purposes;
BRB wrote:
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.
The IC's faction/detachment is quite irrelevant. The Unit he is a member of is a Unit in the NSF detachment. Please, provide the rule that changes this.
We're done here. Rules have been provided to show you the error of your ways, numerous times, and you continue to attempt to change the goal posts or mislead/misquote others arguments as a defense.
So ignoring the actual RAW issues with your argument because you are incorrect means we are done, got it.
I appreciate your house rules, but would want to know about such house rules before a tournament if I were playing in it.
blaktoof wrote: So ignoring the actual RAW issues with your argument because you are incorrect means we are done, got it.
I appreciate your house rules, but would want to know about such house rules before a tournament if I were playing in it.
No, providing the actual rules numerous times to have you ignore them and you in turn providing no actual rules that support your arguement in your defense means we're done. Good day.
blaktoof wrote: So ignoring the actual RAW issues with your argument because you are incorrect means we are done, got it.
I appreciate your house rules, but would want to know about such house rules before a tournament if I were playing in it.
No, providing the actual rules numerous times to have you ignore them and you in turn providing no actual rules that support your arguement in your defense means we're done. Good day.
As the actual RAW, along with quotes and a break down of actually choosing a force roster and applying the rules as written to how it would play out has been done multiple times in this thread and you have chosen to ignore them for no reason that is supported in the rules in your defense, means we are done.
blaktoof wrote: So ignoring the actual RAW issues with your argument because you are incorrect means we are done, got it.
I appreciate your house rules, but would want to know about such house rules before a tournament if I were playing in it.
No, providing the actual rules numerous times to have you ignore them and you in turn providing no actual rules that support your arguement in your defense means we're done. Good day.
As the actual RAW, along with quotes and a break down of actually choosing a force roster and applying the rules as written to how it would play out has been done multiple times in this thread and you have chosen to ignore them for no reason that is supported in the rules in your defense, means we are done.
Have a nice day.
You haven't yet, once, addressed the IC rule
You have ignored it at every turn. You have a complete blind spot on this.
You're done. You have no valid argument, and it's just you digging yourself deeper.
blaktoof wrote: So ignoring the actual RAW issues with your argument because you are incorrect means we are done, got it.
I appreciate your house rules, but would want to know about such house rules before a tournament if I were playing in it.
No, providing the actual rules numerous times to have you ignore them and you in turn providing no actual rules that support your arguement in your defense means we're done. Good day.
As the actual RAW, along with quotes and a break down of actually choosing a force roster and applying the rules as written to how it would play out has been done multiple times in this thread and you have chosen to ignore them for no reason that is supported in the rules in your defense, means we are done.
Have a nice day.
You haven't yet, once, addressed the IC rule
You have ignored it at every turn. You have a complete blind spot on this.
You're done. You have no valid argument, and it's just you digging yourself deeper.
I actually did address it multiple times, a few times you purposefuly chose to misquote me and argue directly what I said I was not saying because you just like to argue or you failed to read what I stated. Not sure which.
Quote them then. You make interesting accusations, as per usual, but no substance.
The IC rules are very clear - FOR ALL RULES PURPOSES.
Is a. Normal member of the unit from the nsf detachment? Yes or no. You answered it incorrectly previously, try again. No qualifiers needed, simple yes or no.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Quote them then. You make interesting accusations, as per usual, but no substance.
The IC rules are very clear - FOR ALL RULES PURPOSES.
Is a. Normal member of the unit from the nsf detachment? Yes or no. You answered it incorrectly previously, try again. No qualifiers needed, simple yes or no.
here first page
1- no one has stated rules are lost.
-blaktoof
So you would claim the unit loses the rule
-nosferatu1001
considering I stated the unit didn't lose it,
1- no one has stated rules are lost. If yo...
and nothing in my example states they didn't lose it I fail to see how you think I stated that. In fact no idea why you are bringing it up.
-blaktoof
Spoiler:
[no actual explanation or rules discussion given in response]-nosferatu1001
I am going to stop there, as I just realized its a waste of time to communicate with you on pretty much any topic.
For those unsure, blaktoofs position is an interesting hywpi, but has no relation to actual rules.
RAW, as proven a joined IC is a normal member of the unit for all rules purposes, meaning the unit is still a nsf unit (that would be a rules purpose. Shocking I know) and so can evoke th rule.
Done. It really is as simple as that. Five pages on, there sure no substantive arguments against.
For those unsure, blaktoofs position is an interesting hywpi, but has no relation to actual rules.
RAW, as proven a joined IC is a normal member of the unit for all rules purposes, meaning the unit is still a nsf unit (that would be a rules purpose. Shocking I know) and so can evoke th rule.
Done. It really is as simple as that. Five pages on, there sure no substantive arguments against.
for those unsure, no RAW has been presented that specifies the IC may count as from the units detachment, or a unit in that units detachment, or of the faction of the unit it joins.
in the case of this special rule it requires the unit to be from the detachment, the detachment requires all models in the unit to be of the faction.
