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The idea that anything linked to nazi germany or SS deeply offending. As most normal people would.

What, ANYTHING?

So when a movie features the SS and their actions, you find that offensive?

When a historical reenactor dresses up as an SS soldier, you find that offensive?

When a historical wargamer plays a Waffen SS force, you find that offensive?


The SS, as brutal and evil as they were, are a part of history, and as such they should not be off limits for representation in miniature wargames and fiction. Such portrayals can and do serve as an educational experience, to highlight real world history.

Whats important is that the SS are portrayed truthfully and accurately, and if they are, then I don't see how the representation itself should be offensive. What would be offensive is attempt at glorification or white washing of the SS, or distortion of the truth.

Please don't regard this as an attack on you, I just don't get why you would be offended by the representation itself (miniature, film, book etc) as long as it historically accurate. The SS and Nazi's themselves are offensive of course, but they are a part of history and its important that this period of history is remembered. Films and books and historical war games are a part of that.

When I watch a film about the Nazi's, I'm offended by the events and actions depicted, not the film itself provided it is historically accurate.

I'd be fine with it. I have more important things to do than hate on someone's man dollies.

If he's actually a Nazi and is spouting propaganda, then we have an issue.

Coincidentally, What if I played an army modelled after WW2 US troops in Japan? Or Russian troops?

Obviously as a Tau player, I am a Totalitarian. As an IG player I'm a Fascist. As a CSM player... you get the point.

 liquidjoshi wrote:
I'd be fine with it. I have more important things to do than hate on someone's man dollies.

If he's actually a Nazi and is spouting propaganda, then we have an issue.

Coincidentally, What if I played an army modelled after WW2 US troops in Japan? Or Russian troops?

Obviously as a Tau player, I am a Totalitarian. As an IG player I'm a Fascist. As a CSM player... you get the point.

As a Raven Guard player, I must be Emo.

I shudder to imagine what Nurgle players must be like...

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
I'd be fine with it. I have more important things to do than hate on someone's man dollies.

If he's actually a Nazi and is spouting propaganda, then we have an issue.

Coincidentally, What if I played an army modelled after WW2 US troops in Japan? Or Russian troops?

Obviously as a Tau player, I am a Totalitarian. As an IG player I'm a Fascist. As a CSM player... you get the point.

As a Raven Guard player, I must be Emo.

I shudder to imagine what Nurgle players must be like...

Hey, I play Night Lords. Clearly I must stab everyone. Right...?

And all Khorne players are locked up in mental asylums.

Honestly I'd play with either person and if the models were painted well and the army looked good I'd complement them on the models. In this day and age and from what I've seen so far in this thread confirms my views that people are too soft and offended by everything. Suck it up, stop being butt hurt crybabies and play 40k. As for the historic significance of this, if Nazi Germany would have won WWII and America was disgraced after dropping the bombs on Japan, things would be completely backwards ... why? because the victors right the history books and push public opinion in their favor. The stars and bars would be looked at as the same as the swastika flag and we (as Americans) would be viewed as mass murders etc. So lets all get over it, live our lives, and not worry about something so trivial as this.

 liquidjoshi wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
I'd be fine with it. I have more important things to do than hate on someone's man dollies.

If he's actually a Nazi and is spouting propaganda, then we have an issue.

Coincidentally, What if I played an army modelled after WW2 US troops in Japan? Or Russian troops?

Obviously as a Tau player, I am a Totalitarian. As an IG player I'm a Fascist. As a CSM player... you get the point.

As a Raven Guard player, I must be Emo.

I shudder to imagine what Nurgle players must be like...

Hey, I play Night Lords. Clearly I must stab everyone. Right...?

And all Khorne players are locked up in mental asylums.

Slaanesh players are all on the sex offenders register.

Politicians play Tzeentch.

Only Scandinavians play Space Wolves.

MitchellTyner wrote:
Honestly I'd play with either person and if the models were painted well and the army looked good I'd complement them on the models. In this day and age and from what I've seen so far in this thread confirms my views that people are too soft and offended by everything. Suck it up, stop being butt hurt crybabies and play 40k. As for the historic significance of this, if Nazi Germany would have won WWII and America was disgraced after dropping the bombs on Japan, things would be completely backwards ... why? because the victors right the history books and push public opinion in their favor. The stars and bars would be looked at as the same as the swastika flag and we (as Americans) would be viewed as mass murders etc. So lets all get over it, live our lives, and not worry about something so trivial as this.

Agreed, though covering up the Holocaust would have been a pretty remarkable feat.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 bubz wrote:

 Boggy Man wrote:

 bubz wrote:
Yes 40k is a grim dark setting of violence and war but it's also fantasy. No one in real life has had a loved one killed by psychic plague demons from another dimension.

Hey man, check your privilege! That's how my uncle died! (At least that's what my Aunt claimed at the trial.)

hahaha redacted!

But seriously "just don't be offended" is about the most privileged thing you could say regarding Nazi and sex slave conversions.

I don't think it's that hard to just not spend hours making something that will 100% offend people (for good reason). But whatever, it can't realistically be banned so I'd just choose not to play them.

But lik has been said, what about people who do historic Wargaming? Because they pick the Nazis, and spend the same amount of time modelling and painting their army does that still weird you out? I'm not having a go or anything I'm just curious where the line is between being interested with the history of war and being a closet nazi is

Given the context, I have no issue with people who participate in historic wargaming choosing to model Nazi armies. They had a great aesthetic and tactics.

I personally feel that the effort one puts into converting and painting and forcing Nazism (or its imagery) into 40k more than it already is unsettling. It's unnecessary and inappropriate in the same way that converting your space marines into My Little Ponies is. I'd probably be just as creeped out if someone did that tbh.

Not to mention the "Guard are already Nazis in space" or "I appreciate it from a historical standpoint" is balogne because Guard draw from WWi. Bad history = poor excuses to put your weird Nazi conversions into a game they have no place in.

I love just how.many crusaders in this thread have clearly not read the follow-up post by the OP regarding the SS force turningout to be based on a film that in fact satirises the Nazis.

What if I wanted to make the sort of-nazi's from Hellsing Ultimate?
Millennium I think they're called

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
What if I wanted to make the sort of-nazi's from Hellsing Ultimate?
Millennium I think they're called

Oh snap that would be cool for the new renegade list

I saw that list, and have some neat idea's, one was like a Bandit army from Fist of the North Star (the second one, the Shura's had more... I guess backstory then "random bandits Kenshiro needs to brutally murder")

 Azazelx wrote:
I love just how.many crusaders in this thread have clearly not read the follow-up post by the OP regarding the SS force turningout to be based on a film that in fact satirises the Nazis.

Yep i pointed that out too

I knew a guy that had converted a set of Redemptionists, it was all really well done, and well painted appropriately for what they were supposed to be.

They were KKK.

Now the UK has had very little of these people here in fact when they tried to " recruit " people a certain biker gang decided to show them the error of their ways.

I'm not saying racism doesn't exist in England it does I have seen it and experienced it first hand but I have only met 1 person who was white a racist though and it wasn't this person with the figures.

Were they in poor taste sure, But the Managers reaction to them was him banning them and the guy for some time. Now they were only painted white, there was no obvious things that would make you think of such anti people of colour conetations, no symbology and no lettering, It could be said they were using the Inquisition uniforms as the KKK adopted those. And the only reason that anybody found out is that he told them what they were supposed to be.

Personally I think if your a racist your a moron. However its paint on a model, should we ban Nemesis the Warlock next?

I've seen Nazi Orks get less flakk than that guy did

Getting the chance to sit across the table and have my armies battle villains such as Nazis, KKK, Taliban would actually be fun for me.

In a game where Mordian Iron Guard look like Nazis, Redemptionists look like KKK, and Talarn Desert Raider can pass for your least favorite middle Eastern terrorist groups I think people make too much out of it when it happens.

As I said earlier I'd draw the line at blatant symbolism, and anything else would be a "Tough, deal with it" approach. Guard in field gray uniforms are one thing, having swastikas everywhere is a little too much and is going to probably offend someone. The Redemptionists in white robes I would say big deal, as long as you don't have like a diorama with them beating a dark-skinned model or have "White Power" all over the place.

You could make redemptionists Dark Skinned and offend KKK memebers ?

I will echo an earlier post I read. Of course you have the right to free speech and that is fine, but just remember while you are speaking, the people listening also have the same right and you may end up "feeling" the consequence of your speech. The consequence may come in the form of people not wanting to socialize with you or it may come in a physical form or even in a legal/written form against you, but just remember when the consequence arises that you brought it upon yourself. I believe quite a few people say or do things without thinking about the outcome because we have the mindset that we are "untouchable" until we are "touched". Additionally, I personally think the armies in question are tasteless more than offensive and I would let the modelers know that prior to playing a game with them and ask if they would use a different set if possible and if they said no then I would just wait until another war gamer came in that had more appropriate models. Eventually the two guys would get tired of playing against each other and would probably bring different models to the FLGS, right?

If nazi guard makes him a nazi them I Am a giant mushroom that builds working guns out of scrap. Question:does the dnob(death nazies of blitzkrieg) have swatstikas on his models?if he does....thats kinda weird....
In Ireland,thousands have died because of the "great" British empire in the last few centuries.A town near me was burned to the ground by Oliver Cromwell. He became one of "The ten greatest British people ever".

In Italy prisoners of the US were shot with a thompson submachine gun because "they were only italians". The shooter wasnt even discharged from the American armed forces. The Emperor of Japan wanted peace but his generals and navy had to agree and they didnt. At most one atomic bomb was needed. And yet GW produced a model based off the british, nobody would bat an eye if I painted my models as british and GI guard would be completely normal.

 Da krimson barun wrote:
In Ireland,thousands have died because of the "great" British empire in the last few centuries.A town near me was burned to the ground by Oliver Cromwell. He became one of "The ten greatest British people ever".

Are "Greatest Britons" and evil mass murderers mutually exclusive?

I don't see why someone modelling SS minis is seen as offensive when someone modelling a US or British Airforce army would not be considered offensive. USAF killed hundreds of thousands of Japanese at Hiroshima and Nagasaki during WW2, and the British and US were involved in the bombing of Dresden which resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands. Just because we won the war doesn't make us any better morally. We just out-killed the Germans.

Also, before US members get on their soap box, check out your attitude towards Jewish asylum seekers during WW2.

History is written by the victors?

 Azreal13 wrote:
History is written by the victors?

Exactly. Just saying it should be considered just as offensive to have WW2 US or British armed forces markings as it is to have SS markings. Either they're all okay or none are okay.

 Da krimson barun wrote:
If nazi guard makes him a nazi them I Am a giant mushroom that builds working guns out of scrap. Question:does the dnob(death nazies of blitzkrieg) have swatstikas on his models?if he does....thats kinda weird....
In Ireland,thousands have died because of the "great" British empire in the last few centuries.A town near me was burned to the ground by Oliver Cromwell. He became one of "The ten greatest British people ever".

It is okay. In Russia we had Stalin as one of the greatest Russians. It seems people rather like evil mass murderers.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
History is written by the victors?

Exactly. Just saying it should be considered just as offensive to have WW2 US or British armed forces markings as it is to have SS markings. Either they're all okay or none are okay.

This is not just a matter of history being written by the victors. The Allies in WW2 commited their fair share of horrible war crimes and were never persecuted for it. The Nazis however, were on a completely different level of 'evil'. They in fact made commiting war crimes into their official policy and actively pursued the almost total extermination of Europe's non-Germanic population. The Allies never even came close to the kind of thing the Nazis have done. The Nazis commited so many more heinous acts than the Allies, comparing both is unjustified and is insulting towards the victims of Nazism and to the millions of heroes that gave their lives to purge the world from this evil.

Nazi symbols should only be used where historically accurate. I have nothing against things having a 'nazi' look, but actual Nazi symbols are a big no-no.

Everything is offensive when you look deep enough.

Nazis did gross things, Americans did and do gross things, Australians, Indians, Samoans, Icelandic peoples you name it. Your ancestors have probably done things that will make you sick, your pets great great pet dad may have helped kill an endangered specie, you probably own clothes made from slaves and the list goes on forever.

So if your general has a cat, you better be offended because those cats are ruining precious bird life in my country.

If your army is based off anything human then you better be offended that your army is based of deep dark horrid events.

If your general wears boots that resemble Nike (or insert major shoe brand here) ones, then you should feel ashamed that you support child labour.

The list goes on.

So if your line is shorter than someone else, I wouldnt be too upset.

Just let it go. While I personally wouldnt care, im also not dumb enough to do something like it. Because there are people out there that do care.

So in my opinion if you make models simply to be offensive then whatever, I probably wont enjoy their company.

If you get offended easily then in my opinion you need to take a long look at what "bad" things are acceptable to you and which ones are not. Then you need to realize not everyone has the same idea and move on.

Nothing is not bad in some way or another, if you look deep enough.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
This is not just a matter of history being written by the victors. The Allies in WW2 commited their fair share of horrible war crimes and were never persecuted for it. The Nazis however, were on a completely different level of 'evil'. They in fact made commiting war crimes into their official policy and actively pursued the almost total extermination of Europe's non-Germanic population. The Allies never even came close to the kind of thing the Nazis have done. The Nazis commited so many more heinous acts than the Allies, comparing both is unjustified and is insulting towards the victims of Nazism and to the millions of heroes that gave their lives to purge the world from this evil.

Nazi symbols should only be used where historically accurate. I have nothing against things having a 'nazi' look, but actual Nazi symbols are a big no-no.

United States Army committed the largest genocide ever in history - against the Native Americans. Nazis more evil than other governments throughout history? Highly debatable.

Also, what makes ordinary Germans/Italian/Japanese 'evil' for for fighting in war and ordinary Allies 'good'? I'm sure there was lots of bravery, cowardice and atrocity on both sides.

If someone brought a model depicting a Jew being gassed by an SS guard I would of course find that offensive [in the same way that I would find a US Cavalry officer stabbing a Native American offensive]. A generic SS soldier, not at all.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
This is not just a matter of history being written by the victors. The Allies in WW2 commited their fair share of horrible war crimes and were never persecuted for it. The Nazis however, were on a completely different level of 'evil'. They in fact made commiting war crimes into their official policy and actively pursued the almost total extermination of Europe's non-Germanic population. The Allies never even came close to the kind of thing the Nazis have done. The Nazis commited so many more heinous acts than the Allies, comparing both is unjustified and is insulting towards the victims of Nazism and to the millions of heroes that gave their lives to purge the world from this evil.

Nazi symbols should only be used where historically accurate. I have nothing against things having a 'nazi' look, but actual Nazi symbols are a big no-no.

United States Army committed the largest genocide ever in history - against the Native Americans. Nazis more evil than other governments throughout history? Highly debatable.

Also, what makes ordinary Germans/Italian/Japanese 'evil' for for fighting in war and ordinary Allies 'good'? I'm sure there was lots of bravery, cowardice and atrocity on both sides.

If someone brought a model depicting a Jew being gassed by an SS guard I would of course find that offensive [in the same way that I would find a US Cavalry officer stabbing a Native American offensive]. A generic SS soldier, not at all.

Ehhhhhh... there is a lot of historically wrong things going on here, not least of which is this notion of "well, everyone sucks". The notion that the largest genocide in history was against the native Americans is just silly. While there is plenty of debate over the scale of the terrible misfortunes and crimes against the Native Americans, even the highest death tolls in that "genocide" are dwarfed by the minimum estimates of the death toll from Communist China's worst campaigns of extermination.

All of which is to say that this is a very loose use of the word genocide, one that clouds more then it clears.

It's also important to point out that this is a very different notion then what others have been pointing out: it is not tolerance to say that Nazis were no worse and the Allies no better, it's moral blindness and nihilism. In complete honesty, to say that the United States and Nazi Germany occupy similar moral plains is to either reveal an irremediably miseducation, or an abhorrent moral outlook.

Which all goes back to my point from earlier in the thread: "it's not about the models, it's about the players"

You mean those US cavalry officers who routinely castrated the Native American warriors and used the scrotum as a tobacco pouch?

Actually, I'm not even sure if that's historically factual, but the fact it's even plausible demonstrates my point.

Phrase it how you like, one man's meat is another's poison or one man's Rebel is the other's freedom fighter, history is all a matter of perspective.

 Buzzsaw wrote:

In complete honesty, to say that the United States and Nazi Germany occupy anything other than similar moral plains is to either reveal an irremediably miseducation, or an abhorrent moral outlook.

Fixed it for you.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 Buzzsaw wrote:

In complete honesty, to say that the United States and Nazi Germany occupy anything other than similar moral plains is to either reveal an irremediably miseducation, or an abhorrent moral outlook.

Fixed it for you.

Your wit is equal to your historical understanding and moral character.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 Buzzsaw wrote:

In complete honesty, to say that the United States and Nazi Germany occupy anything other than similar moral plains is to either reveal an irremediably miseducation, or an abhorrent moral outlook.

Fixed it for you.

I'm sorry, when did the United States commit mass genocide based on religous and or sexual preferences ?