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Lore and setting

and most of the ascetics

Stick to the topic.

OP, I think you will find that the main issue is not actually with 40k. it is with the parent company and it's policies. Just because we dislike them or do not agree with themdoes not mean we do not like many of the games they put out. pretty much everyone here likes 40k to a degree. We may not like aspects of it (differentiation of rules or instability of fluff or whatnot but overall, we find more about 40k that we like than we dislike or we wouldnt be here.

I feel your pain in getting tired of seeing negativity all the time from a select few. I think we should ALL focus more on the aspects that we DO like and spend less time dwelling on those we dont.
We should also support one another in what we like instead of trying to tear one another down for it.
It was the fufff and models that got me into the game and what keeps me liking it despite my feelings for the parent company..
Check out the thread dedicated to what got us into the game and you will see a few more positives given.
Kudos to you for standing up and starting the thread.

Lanrak wrote: How do you know how long any edition of 40k will last?

No, but the most expected amount of time it will last is the average (or, well, the median) amount of time the others in the series have.

Plus, even if they came out with a new rules edition every 20 seconds, it wouldn't change the fact that you could still play games with whatever rulebook you choose to play with. Rulebooks are a durable good.

EVIL INC wrote:we find more about 40k that we like than we dislike or we wouldnt be here.

I am seriously beginning to wonder if this is still true.

EVIL INC wrote:I feel your pain in getting tired of seeing negativity all the time from a select few.

If only it were so simple. The makeup of dakka changes over time. If there are a bunch of trolls or super-negative people, it will deter people who aren't that way from joining, and encourage those kinds of people to sign up and start posting. Furthermore, it will cause existing posters to start expressing the same kinds of opinions, whether because they were detered from expressing them before, or because they slowly give in to the bile over time.

Of the people on my friends list, a majority of them have stopped posting as of about may or june, while the people on my ignore list seems to grow every week. Either I changed substantially over the past few months, or a very different kind of person is taking over dakka.

In this case, the whole, I would argue, is bigger than the sum of its parts. If not even a "say something good" thread can last for more than a few posts before people start only saying something bad, I'd say that's an indicator. Especially of the future health of dakka.

 Ailaros wrote:

Of the people on my friends list, a majority of them have stopped posting as of about may or june

Wasn't that about the time 7th came out?

 reds8n wrote:
Stick to the topic.

Do what the man says. Go bash GW and decry the sky is falling in another thread please.

PRO - Active fan base, with awesome online resources like DakkaDakka

I think he has a point in the part of just being forced to give in to the bile over time. If someone is ramming the negativity down your throat over time and others are afraid to stand up to them, they start to force others to think like them against their will without ven knowing it. If peoplelooked towardspositives and made some sort of attempt to find things they like this effect would work in the opposite direction and it would be a healthier community.

A few things that have not been mentioned but SHOULD be...

1. Education- Growing up, I was a bright kid (or so i've been told) but in school, I never paid attention in class or didhomework or studied. I was always too busy reading a book or fiddling with my gaming stuff. Yet, I made passing grades and eked by. I realized that a lot of the math, reading skills and comprehension, communication skills history ect ect, I had actually picked up and learned through gaming. Whether it be fantasy, 40k or D&D, I owe a lot of my education to the hobby.

2. Friends- Gaming kept my friends and I together and gave us a comman ground where otherwise, we may have drifted apart before becoming truly close or after we had aged and grown up. To this day, I could put my life in their hands and totally trust them.

3. Good times and stories- Memories. We all have good times and memories of things we did with our buddies. It doesnt matter ifit was an especially horrible game we had to laugh at or some trick we pulled that backfired or knowing that we had been dumped by an ex and got the whole story out and off our chests while playing a game.

4. Mental health- I can tell you, I have been worked up or anguished and displaced the energy into the hobby through list building and painting/converting when otherwise, my mental condition may have caused me to start drinking or fighting are even driving as fast as i could down the road hoping "the decision to be removed from my hands" if ya know what i mean.

These things and more are all things the negative people dont seem to consider at all.

 EVIL INC wrote:
I think he has a point in the part of just being forced to give in to the bile over time. If someone is ramming the negativity down your throat over time and others are afraid to stand up to them, they start to force others to think like them against their will without ven knowing it. If peoplelooked towardspositives and made some sort of attempt to find things they like this effect would work in the opposite direction and it would be a healthier community.

A few things that have not been mentioned but SHOULD be...

1. Education- Growing up, I was a bright kid (or so i've been told) but in school, I never paid attention in class or didhomework or studied. I was always too busy reading a book or fiddling with my gaming stuff. Yet, I made passing grades and eked by. I realized that a lot of the math, reading skills and comprehension, communication skills history ect ect, I had actually picked up and learned through gaming. Whether it be fantasy, 40k or D&D, I owe a lot of my education to the hobby.

2. Friends- Gaming kept my friends and I together and gave us a comman ground where otherwise, we may have drifted apart before becoming truly close or after we had aged and grown up. To this day, I could put my life in their hands and totally trust them.

3. Good times and stories- Memories. We all have good times and memories of things we did with our buddies. It doesnt matter ifit was an especially horrible game we had to laugh at or some trick we pulled that backfired or knowing that we had been dumped by an ex and got the whole story out and off our chests while playing a game.

4. Mental health- I can tell you, I have been worked up or anguished and displaced the energy into the hobby through list building and painting/converting when otherwise, my mental condition may have caused me to start drinking or fighting are even driving as fast as i could down the road hoping "the decision to be removed from my hands" if ya know what i mean.

These things and more are all things the negative people dont seem to consider at all.

But all of that can be done outside of Games Workshop. (GW aint the hobby, table-top gaming is.) Yet again, you're arguing against things nobody said.

True, it CAN be done outside of GW. But we are not discussing GW, we are discussing 40k which is only one product GW has. You can dislike the company and like the background and mythos of one of it's games.
However, while those things COULD be done outside of 40k, for many of us it WAS done making use of 40k. Dismissing out of hand how it has helped many of us because of your personal dislike is rude and impolite because it dismisses us and our lives and experiences as worthless. For many it does a better job at those things than another "product' would while for others it would do it less. Regardless the fact is that it HAS and giving it credit for that is relevant to the topic.
Also note that The thread is NOT about tabletop gaming, it is about 40k and pros of it. There are other threads dedicated to bashing. The OP specifically asked for no bashing and mods have already asked you to remain on topic.

 EVIL INC wrote:
True, it CAN be done outside of GW. But we are not discussing GW, we are discussing 40k which is only one product GW has. You can dislike the company and like the background and mythos of one of it's games.
However, while those things COULD be done outside of 40k, for many of us it WAS done making use of 40k. Dismissing out of hand how it has helped many of us because of your personal dislike is rude and impolite because it dismisses us and our lives and experiences as worthless. For many it does a better job at those things than another "product' would while for others it would do it less. Regardless the fact is that it HAS and giving it credit for that is relevant to the topic.
Also note that you are arguing against something no one has ever said. The thread is NOT about tabletop gaming, it is about 40k and pros of it. There are other threads dedicated to bashing. The OP specifically asked for no bashing and mods have already asked you to remain on topic.

I was trying to say that your "40k pro" was not specific to 40k so has little validity to a 40k specific topic. Try to stay on topic.

If Evil Inc has done all those things while playing 40K, he will associate them with 40K, and therefore is on topic.

Absolute uniqueness to 40K was not a qualification discussed by the OP

 adamsouza wrote:
If Evil Inc has done all those things while playing 40K, he will associate them with 40K, and therefore is on topic.

Absolute uniqueness to 40K was not a qualification discussed by the OP

Then I apologize. I misunderstood the topic.

I'm sure I'm not alone in those things.
True, we COULD have done it elsewhere (like in cvlasses at school for example lol) but 40k interested me enough to keep my attention and make me want to do those things where other sources just did not. For many, it would be sports while others drama or choir or whatever else caught and held their attention and assisted them in it. For many of us, this was 40k. For me in particular, it was a combination of 40k and D&D.

@EVIL INC.
I do not think anyone was trying to say that the pros of 40k are not significant or important.And I am sure lots of people enjoy the 40k hobby , for all the social and personal reasons that have been posted.

However, these pros are actually common to ALL table top war games.
The only thing that sets 40k apart is its art and background.But as other rule sets can work with this.
(Epic Armageddon /NET EPIC ,Tomorrows War, Stargrunt II,Warpath, Fast and Dirty, One page 40k, FUBAR, etc.)
I really do not see this as a 'show stopper.'

The point I was trying to make is the list of pros for other games exceeds that of the list of pros for 40k.

Lanrak wrote:
The point I was trying to make is the list of pros for other games exceeds that of the list of pros for 40k.

In your opinion.

@adamsouza.
Subjective things like how cool models look, or how much fun you have playing the game are personal opinion.

But rule sets have a objective function, so can be compared objectively to each other.
And so direct comparison of concrete metrics , like complexity of game play to level of complication in the rule sets , and cost in time and effort etc, are not just based on opinion, but are factual differences.

And in objective comparison to other game systems, 40k list of pros run out before other games list of pros do!

I'm with Evil Inc.

Sure, in my long and storied 40k journey, there are bumps in the road. However, for me, they are far outweighed by the happy memories of the game.

Most importantly, I can relate to "friends" and "good times and memories" with 40k. Could it have been done with another game? Sure, maybe. But guess what, in the 80's and 90's, there were no another scifi tabletop wargames (certainly nothing near the complexity and model range of 40k). So, in 40k, I developed many friendships and have many fond memories. I can say the same thing about Magic the Gathering. Heck, I can even say the same thing about Diablo 2 and even Diablo 3.

However, FOR ME, none of these other games have endured the test of time as has 40k. I've had long breaks from 40k, but I always come back to it in some way or another, because I just love the game universe and the models, and as I have said in other threads, the rules themselves are easily fixable.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lanrak wrote:
@adamsouza.
Subjective things like how cool models look, or how much fun you have playing the game are personal opinion.

But rule sets have a objective function, so can be compared objectively to each other.
And so direct comparison of concrete metrics , like complexity of game play to level of complication in the rule sets , and cost in time and effort etc, are not just based on opinion, but are factual differences.

And in objective comparison to other game systems, 40k list of pros run out before other games list of pros do!

No, not really. It's pointless to objectively compare one set of rules with another set of rules and say X is better than Y, because at the end of the day, what's important, TO ME, is that the game is fun. if I find a game is fun, grabs me, and my friends and I can have a blast, I really don't care whether game X is more balanced than game Y or that game Z has more "pros".

I mean, that's like saying that Football is better than Hockey because if you list out all the pros and cons, Football has a longer list. Anyone who watches either sport will probably stare at you and just go... "Huh?"

And, lest I neglect to state the obvious, like sports, why should tabletop wargames be exclusionary? Just because I like 40k doesn't mean I can't play X-Wing, WHFB, and War Machine. Just because I like Halo doesn't mean I can't play Titanfall and CoD. Some people will prefer one game to the other, but the existence of more choices is GOOD for the industry and for consumers.

I'm Talys and EVIL Inc... I've played every edition, and 40K has never been perfect, far from it - but it's always been great fun, and in my opinion it has always continued to get better and offer more and more.

I don't believe GW as a company can ever 'win' at this point. One quick look at this forum and you'll see that the 'players' cannot agree on ANYTHING - how does a company make all of those people happy? My group just keeps getting together and having fun regardless.

PROS:
great models,
great historical background,
unmatched depth and breadth in regards to options, variety, races/armies, choices etc etc
except for 4th edition and the second half of 5th edition, I've loved playing every version of the game,
great spin-off alternative modes, like zone mortalis, planet strike, kill team, and apoc (my favorite)
I play 40k regularly (with good people), and I therefore I love 40k

CONS:
the player base in general rather sucks
the prices are terribly high (and have always been high in their time)
again due to high prices, this has always been a game for the more entitled, spoiled kids, and the more entitled, spoiled kids that have grown up into entitled adults
- therefore you see a lot of the "they owe me" and "why don't they do what _I_ want?" attitudes - and the constant complaining.
every edition has a few rules that are annoying, that reasonable people can just deal with, but at tournaments you will have 'issue'.
white dwarf got lame for a while, but recently I've been very much enjoying it.
resin models
mold lines!
paint containers dry out too darn fast
again, the prices

Bottom line though: I LOVE WARHAMMER 40K.

Lanrak wrote:
@adamsouza.
Subjective things like how cool models look, or how much fun you have playing the game are personal opinion.

But rule sets have a objective function, so can be compared objectively to each other.
And so direct comparison of concrete metrics , like complexity of game play to level of complication in the rule sets , and cost in time and effort etc, are not just based on opinion, but are factual differences.

And in objective comparison to other game systems, 40k list of pros run out before other games list of pros do!

You fail at even attempting to be objective.

Which game is "best" is entirely subjective based on personal values.

If it was all down to concrete metrics, we'd all be playing Chess.

Chess has less complicated rules.
Chess requires very little finiancial commitment.
Chess is widely more recognized and more prestigous than any other tabletop game.
Chess requires very little setup time.
Chess requires no time between games on preparing the models.

 Gunzhard wrote:
the player base in general rather sucks

Care to elaborate?

I'm genuinely curious what about the 40k player base in particular makes them suck.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:
the player base in general rather sucks

Care to elaborate?

I'm genuinely curious what about the 40k player base in particular makes them suck.

If you are posting here, I'm assuming you've spent more than a few minutes in the Dakka 40k general... is that not enough evidence for you?

As I said in that same post, blame GW high prices - but this has always been a game for the entitled, spoiled kids - and the entitled, spoiled kids that have grown into entitled adults. This was never a game for people of humble means. So the entitled, spoiled attitude that people seem to have towards the game and in particular GW should be no surprise... that said, GW (like every company) is not without its flaws.

 Gunzhard wrote:


If you are posting here, I'm assuming you've spent more than a few minutes in the Dakka 40k general... is that not enough evidence for you?

Well, humour aside, no. There are certainly some, uhhh, interesting characters here, but the same can be said of anywhere on the internet. I don't think Dakka or any 40k/wargame centric forum is free of gakky posting. The frequency and degree varies, but given the size of Dakka, I'd say its pretty damn good here.

As I said in that same post, blame GW high prices - but this has always been a game for the entitled, spoiled kids - and the entitled, spoiled kids that have grown into entitled adults. This was never a game for people of humble means. So the entitled, spoiled attitude that people seem to have towards the game and in particular GW should be no surprise... that said, GW (like every company) is not without its flaws.

I really don't agree with this. At all. While GW's prices are certainly among the highest, I don't think the difference between owning a WM/H and a 40k army is such that one group is made up mostly of alleged entitled brats, and the other is not.

Then again, I haven't ran into anyone that would fit that description in real life, but most of the people I game with are military, so I avoid a few of the stereotypes that way.

Maybe I'm also missing out on this entitled behaviour online, but I feel like what some see as entitled, I see as fair criticism of a product.

 Gunzhard wrote:

As I said in that same post, blame GW high prices - but this has always been a game for the entitled, spoiled kids - and the entitled, spoiled kids that have grown into entitled adults. This was never a game for people of humble means. So the entitled, spoiled attitude that people seem to have towards the game and in particular GW should be no surprise... .

No and Yes.

GW games have not always been insanely high and regulated to spoiled entitled kids, characterizing the entire playerbase as such is a douche move on your part.

However, there are more than a few entitled and spoiled people amongst the playerbase, and this forum.

 adamsouza wrote:


However, there are more than a few entitled and spoiled people amongst the playerbase, and this forum.

Which is true of many hobbies, games, and activities.

Or, indeed, life.

 Blacksails wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:


However, there are more than a few entitled and spoiled people amongst the playerbase, and this forum.

Which is true of many hobbies, games, and activities.

True, but I was thinking about douchy people entitled enough to apply negative labels across the entire 40K playerbase at the time I was wrtiting that comment.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:


However, there are more than a few entitled and spoiled people amongst the playerbase, and this forum.

Which is true of many hobbies, games, and activities.

True, but I was thinking about douchy people entitled enough to apply negative labels across the entire 40K playerbase at the time I was wrtiting that comment.

Nobody seems to do that, though, only to certain rabid individuals who refuse to see any fault or dismisses any criticism with nonsense and/or veiled attacks.

The biggest pro for me of 40k is the background and sometimes the figures. Everything else is subpar.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Or, indeed, life.

That is the point - if you think everyone is on the same level as you in "life" (which they are NOT by an enormous majority), then you are unaware of your privilege/entitlement.

Most kids cannot afford 40K and it has literally always been that way, at least here in the US. I started with Rogue Trader, and while it is ridiculously expensive now, it was always priced very high.

Were we just told to check our privileges?

WayneTheGame wrote:

Nobody seems to do that, though, only to certain rabid individuals who refuse to see any fault or dismisses any criticism with nonsense and/or veiled attacks.

but this has always been a game for the entitled, spoiled kids - and the entitled, spoiled kids that have grown into entitled adults