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Hello

Why jump units can't DS on impassible terrain if it's possible to finish their move there (same for skimmers) ?
Why a skimmer can't Pod-like ? You can move it if he is forced to finish his move over other models.

"Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain".
And to enter a difficult or dangerous terrain, you have to declare it at the start of your move.
So, to test, DS is necessary a move or the sentence doesn't make sense.

I think there is a difference between the deployment of armies and those from reserves.
You deploy reserves with a move = at the beginning of the movement phase.

There are different kinds of impassable terrain.

For example pile of rubble or any other feature on your table with a flat top and there are no ways to get from ground level to the top, its sides would be impassable for units that cant fly/move in such a manner as ignores terrain.
However the top is regular ground and so can be deployed on via deep strike, note though that if the unit scatters even partially off the plateau and onto the impassable sides it would mishap if the scatter doesnt take them outside of the impassable part.

Another pile of rubble, this time without any space to place models, the whole thing is counted as impassable but you can still move skimmers on it by risking a dangerous terrain roll as long as you can balance the model on there.
There really isnt a reason other than the wording for why skimmers cant deep strike onto impassable terrain.
Jump units can move over impassable terrain as long as it isnt representing something they cant fly over but can never end their move in impassable terrain, if they scatter into it from deep strike they mishap.

"If a Skimmer is forced to end its _move_ over friendly or enemy models, move the Skimmer the minimum distance so that no models are left underneath it."

Deploying via deep strike is not a move, it is a deployment, the scatter is not a move but a randomization of the placement of the unit deploying representing the difficulties of teleporting or landing at a precise point and only makes the unit count as having moved to represent that it takes some attention from the crew to get where they are.

Edits: for grammar and formulation of my writing, english isnt my first language either.

Another edit to change my example though i still think a tall tower with no ways to get to the top of without an ignores terrain move is an alright example, i didnt say a tall and embarkable tower with battlements

Wurrkop,
Towers are not a good example, just turn it a heap of rubble which is clearly too steep to climb. This is because Buildings have a few unique Rules when it comes to being declared Impassable, particularly when it comes to the Battlements, and examples are best kept as minimalist as possible. In any case it isn't so much the terrain which causes problems but the fact they are completely different Rules, which means their existence is not enough evidence that they trigger off each other. It would make sense for them to be related in some fashion, but we are dealing with Game Workshop here and Deep Strike has fast become one of my least favorite Rules cause of the problems and questions surrounding it.

But, simply, The Rules are not required to follow Common Sense and even if they where....
I doubt Game Workshop would be able to define 'common sense' and we would be left arguing even more.

Still, while rules are not required to follow common sense, it might make things interesting to try it out as a house rule, given that some players try to fill the table with terrain, in order to minimize an opponents ability to deep strike.

Two opponents have to agree on the Terrain placement, so a Deep Striking army should simply refuse to play with more then 20% terrain.

wurrkop wrote:

Jump units can move over impassable terrain as long as it isnt representing something they cant fly over but can never end their move in impassable terrain

Not in my understanding :
"Jump models cannot end their move on top of other models and can only end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is actually possible to place the models on top of it"

Wow, i hadnt seen that, i must have been remembering older rulers.

Alright, same thing as for skimmers, wording, they always mishap in impassable terrain.

Here again is the same thing , deep strike is a deployment, not a move, moves can end in impassable if the models can be placed at the cost of dangerous terrain.

wurrkop wrote:

Here again is the same thing , deep strike is a deployment, not a move, moves can end in impassable if the models can be placed at the cost of dangerous terrain.

The problem for me is the following :
To trigger a test entering a difficult or dangerous terrain, you need to make a move.
If DS is not a move, you don't trigger the test.
It's not written that if you arrive in difficult terrain, you take a dangerous test.
When you deploy armies, you don't test because it's not moves. Reserves otherwise...

DS is not a move, you dont get dangerous terrain because you are moving into dangerous terrain, you get one for deploying in it via deep strike, if you deep strike into impassable terrain you mishap.

Under Arriving by Deep Strike:
"Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain."

Under Deep Strike Mishaps:
"If any of the models in a Deep Striking unit cannot be deployed, because at least one model would land partially or fully off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top of or within 1" of an enemy model, something has gone wrong."

wurrkop wrote:

"If any of the models in a Deep Striking unit cannot be deployed...

The condittion is "cannot be deploy" for some reasons. It doesn't tell you that : these reasons => can't be deploy
Reserves are deployed by a movement, it's different from deployment of armies. "You can't deploy in impassable" is only for the deployment of armies.
Infantery cannot end her move over impassable terrain, jump units and skimmers can if they physically can. The first one won't be able to be deploy from reserves, the second will.

But ok, it's not how it is played.

"If any of the models in a Deep Striking unit cannot be deployed because at least one model would land partially or fully off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top of or within 1" of an enemy model, something has gone wrong."

They can however use normal movement to get into impassable if they can be placed there.

If mishaps were only triggered by going off the table, landing on or near models and landing where they couldnt be placed the rule would not mention impassable, it would say "where they cannot be placed".
Difficult and dangerous cause dangerous terrain and impassable causes mishaps.

My interpretation is that deep striking into impassable will cause mishaps even if the models could actually be placed there since the rules says specifically "impassable terrain".

I see the point here.

How can a model that Deep Strikes into difficult terrain take Dangerous Terrain Tests when it is not movement? If it is movement how does the skimmer rule interact with landing on Impassable Terrain and enemy models?

In the other thread, that is now closed, it was argued that deep strikes are not movement so all this does cause a mishap, but you don't take a dangerous terrain test as it is not movement. This is a round about way of re-opening the former discussion on the pointless line in the skimmer rules.

My opinion, Skimmers rule allows for the deep strike in the impassable terrain that it can be physically placed on, and allows for protection against landing on friendly and enemy models.

As written, it is a pointless waste of ink, and time writing/reading it.

"Skimmers can _move_ over all terrain, ignoring all penalties for difficult terrain and Dangerous Terrain tests . However, if a _moving _Skimmer starts or ends its move in difficult or dangerous terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test. A Skimmer can even end its _move_ over impassable terrain if it is possible to actually place the model on top of it, but if it does so it must take a Dangerous Terrain test."
The above quotes specify how skimmers interact with terrain while moving.

"If a Skimmer is forced to end its _move_ over friendly or enemy models, move the Skimmer the minimum distance so that no models are left underneath it."
This also only applies to moving, i think its leftovers from back in third when stunned skimmers drifted but there might be some kind of weapons or ability that have slipped my mind that cause vehicles to move around uncontrollably, this rule would protect the hovering skimmer from the effects of involuntarily ramming or tank shocking or is, as you say, a complete waste of ink if it applies to nothing.

However deep strike is not a move, it does not trigger dangerous terrain like a move, it is a kind of deployment which says dangerous if it lands on difficult or dangerous ground and a mishap if it ends in impassable terrain.

Skimmers are not Drop Pods and do not have inertial guidance system.

wurrkop wrote:

"If a Skimmer is forced to end its move over friendly or enemy models, move the Skimmer the minimum distance so that no models are left underneath it."
This also only applies to moving, i think its leftovers from back in third when stunned skimmers drifted but there might be some kind of weapons or ability that have slipped my mind that cause vehicles to move around uncontrollably, this rule would protect the hovering skimmer from the effects of involuntarily ramming or tank shocking or is, as you say, a complete waste of ink if it applies to nothing.

I am sorry but this rules didn't exist before 6th ed.
You push models for a Tank shock.
"Out of control" was removed after 2th ed.
This rule can only apply to DS (i don't see something else)

Elektricity wrote:

wurrkop wrote:

"If a Skimmer is forced to end its move over friendly or enemy models, move the Skimmer the minimum distance so that no models are left underneath it."
This also only applies to moving, i think its leftovers from back in third when stunned skimmers drifted but there might be some kind of weapons or ability that have slipped my mind that cause vehicles to move around uncontrollably, this rule would protect the hovering skimmer from the effects of involuntarily ramming or tank shocking or is, as you say, a complete waste of ink if it applies to nothing.

I am sorry but this rules didn't exist before 6th ed.
You push models for a Tank shock.
"Out of control" was removed after 2th ed.
This rule can only apply to DS (i don't see something else)

As I pointed out in the previous thread, if you tank shock with a skimmer you can still move over intervening units, so you could box in an enemy with your own units and then bunny-hop over them to try and tank shock. On a successful DoG, the skimmer is forced to end its move over your own guys.

Deep Strike does not count as movement until you fully complete all steps, which include Mishap.

 Happyjew wrote:

As I pointed out in the previous thread, if you tank shock with a skimmer you can still move over intervening units, so you could box in an enemy with your own units and then bunny-hop over them to try and tank shock. On a successful DoG, the skimmer is forced to end its move over your own guys.

Deep Strike does not count as movement until you fully complete all steps, which include Mishap.

I don't understand :

"A Tank Shock is an exception to the rule that enerny models cannot be moved through. Remember, though, that friendly rnodels still cannot be moved though, so the Tank's movement will be stopped if any friendly models are in the way. Also, aTank Shock cannot be attempted against enemies that are locked in combat, as the risk of harming allies is too high."

There is no way that you finish your movement over your own guys. You can't bunny-hop your own units and then Tank shock. Tank shock replace normal movement.


DS :
Models count as having moved during the movement phase which they arrive for the purpose of the shooting phase, is more precise.
Which is the case for every deployment from reserves (you deploy at the beginning of your movement phase)


I don't wan't to fight on words, just saying that there is a logic issue.

Happyjew: Cool, thats the something "cant end move on models" applies to

"Skimmers can move over friendly and enemy models, but they cannot end their move on top of either."

Tank shock allows a vehicle to move to a space occupied by the enemy, if the enemy stands their ground by passing a leadership test and doesnt stop the tank in death or glory they are moved to make space for it as per tank shock rules.

So the only way to actually use "If a Skimmer is forced to end its move over friendly or enemy models, move the Skimmer the minimum distance so that no models are left underneath it." looks to be in cases like this or relating to the lash previously mentioned somewhere, i dont know the lash thing tho.

It is never invoked by Deep Strike since as per Deep Strike a vehicle in that ends in impassable or lands on models mishaps.

wurrkop wrote:

Tank shock allows a vehicle to move to a space occupied by the enemy, if the enemy stands their ground by passing a leadership test and doesnt stop the tank in death or glory they are moved to make space for it as per tank shock rules.

Thank you but :
"When moving a Tank, the player can declare that it is going to attempt to Tank Shock instead of moving normally"
"move the Tank straight forwards"
"A Tank Shock is an exception to the rule that enerny models cannot be moved through. Remember, though, that friendly rnodels still cannot be moved through, so the Tank's movement will be stopped if any friendly models are in the way"

move through =/ move over

You can't jump over your own unit and Tank shock after. I'm pretty sure about that

"the Tank's movement will be stopped if any friendly models are in the way"

Tank Shock does not take into account that terrain/models do no get in the way of skimmers.

Skimmers may ignore terrain/models, but not for where it lands.

Tank shock is an exception to the rule against moving into space occupied by enemy models.

If a skimmer wasnt "skimmering" while making a tank shock it would also have to roll dangerous for moving through terrain even if it doesnt start or end its move in it.

This is to show that "cant end move on models, move it away" has a use and that it doesnt have anything to do with Deep Strike.

"Impassable Terrain Unless noted otherwise in their special rules, models cannot enter, cross or move into or through impassable terrain – they must go around. The exceptions tend to be things like Jump units and Skimmers."
Only relevant to movement.

Deployment:
"Units may not be deployed in impassable terrain."

Deep Strike is a deployment by which, after resolving fully and not mishapping, the unit in question is on the table, counting as having moved but not actually having moved to get there.
Dangerous terrain rolls and landing in impassable terrain causing mishaps are part of the deep strike process and not due to moving.

Edits for grammar and clarity of meaning.

wurrkop wrote:


However deep strike is not a move, it does not trigger dangerous terrain like a move, it is a kind of deployment which says dangerous if it lands on difficult or dangerous ground and a mishap if it ends in impassable terrain.

That is my point. Everyone makes you make the Dangerous Terrain test when ending in terrain from a Deep Strike. Since it is not movement, why are you making this test, and why is it even mentioned?


As to the rest, I already stated that I believe the intent was to give protection from Mishaps, but as written it does nothing. Not to mention the Inertial guidance not stopping Mishaps from enemy models, as it does not include the 1" space in it's rules as part of it's obstacles it avoids, another argument for another time.

Under Arriving by Deep Strike
" Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain."
Under Mishaps:
"Your opponent may deploy the unit anywhere on the table (excluding impassable terrain, but including _difficult terrain, which of course counts as dangerous for Deep Striking units_),"

Deep Strike Deployment is advanced.

Standard Deployment is basic and does not mention dangerous terrain.

"Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules."

If Dangerous Terrain wasnt meant to do anything in relation to Deep Strike, there would be no point in mentioning it twice under the DS rules.

And now we are down to intent.

I think this is where we reach the limit before The Most Important Rule must be invoked, we dont want the thread to go on ad infinitum without getting anywhere.
If anyone has any ideas with a better basis i am open to having a look at them

--------

On Inertial Guidance from the SM codex:
" reduce scatter by the minimum required in order to avoid the _obstacle_"

Under Models in the way:
"A model cannot move within 1" of an enemy model unless they are charging into close combat in the Assault phase"

Effectively a models base or hull plus 1" in all directions is how much is obstructed by it, if i am to minimally reduce scatter enough to not be obstructed i would have to go outside the base/hull+1"

Intent, time for The Most Important Rule again

Elektricity wrote:

wurrkop wrote:

Tank shock allows a vehicle to move to a space occupied by the enemy, if the enemy stands their ground by passing a leadership test and doesnt stop the tank in death or glory they are moved to make space for it as per tank shock rules.

Thank you but :
"When moving a Tank, the player can declare that it is going to attempt to Tank Shock instead of moving normally"
"move the Tank straight forwards"
"A Tank Shock is an exception to the rule that enerny models cannot be moved through. Remember, though, that friendly rnodels still cannot be moved through, so the Tank's movement will be stopped if any friendly models are in the way"

move through =/ move over

You can't jump over your own unit and Tank shock after. I'm pretty sure about that

The rules for Skimmers specifically state that when moving they can move over models and terrain. There is nothing that says or even implies this only happens when moving normally.

 Happyjew wrote:

The rules for Skimmers specifically state that when moving they can move over models and terrain. There is nothing that says or even implies this only happens when moving normally.

My bad

I was tricked by "Move the Tank straight forwards".

An other thing that bother me :
In 6th ed there was "Unit cannot deploy in impassable terrain unless they are normally allowed to move over impassable terrain and can physically fit on it"

It seems clear cut to me.

"during the Movement phase in which they arrive..."
So they're indeed arriving during the movement phase. You might have to roll for the reserves earlier than that, but they arrive during the movement phase proper.

"it cannot move any further"
Anyone who has a grasp of the English language knows that you cannot "any further" something you have not done to some extent yet. You say "you shall go no further" to someone who has come some way. You say "Do not press me any further on this matter" to someone who has pressed you on this matter already. You cannot tell someone to not move any further unless they moved. I hope that any rebuttal will address this at least, rather than skirting over it.

By parallel, units in Reserve just move on from the table edge. From the DS description, it sounds like that's exactly what they do for DS as well. That explains the dangerous terrain hijinks: the rules for dangerous terrain work, because they're indeed moving into it from off the table.

wurrkop wrote:
Under Arriving by Deep Strike
" Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain."
Under Mishaps:
"Your opponent may deploy the unit anywhere on the table (excluding impassable terrain, but including _difficult terrain, which of course counts as dangerous for Deep Striking units_),"

Deep Strike Deployment is advanced.

Standard Deployment is basic and does not mention dangerous terrain.

"Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules."

If Dangerous Terrain wasnt meant to do anything in relation to Deep Strike, there would be no point in mentioning it twice under the DS rules.

And now we are down to intent.

I think this is where we reach the limit before The Most Important Rule must be invoked, we dont want the thread to go on ad infinitum without getting anywhere.
If anyone has any ideas with a better basis i am open to having a look at them

--------

On Inertial Guidance from the SM codex:
" reduce scatter by the minimum required in order to avoid the _obstacle_"

Under Models in the way:
"A model cannot move within 1" of an enemy model unless they are charging into close combat in the Assault phase"

Effectively a models base or hull plus 1" in all directions is how much is obstructed by it, if i am to minimally reduce scatter enough to not be obstructed i would have to go outside the base/hull+1"

Intent, time for The Most Important Rule again

So it is your stance that if you deploy in dangerous terrain, but don't move, you still test? An why then would the Deep Strike rule tell us thay we may not move ANY FURTHER if we have not moved? I think it is pretty obvious that Deep Strike is Movement.

@Happy
Can you explain to me why you think it is only movement after it is complete?

 extremefreak17 wrote:

@Happy
Can you explain to me why you think it is only movement after it is complete?

First, why Deep Strike itself is Movement.

1. Deep Striking units treat Difficult Terrain as Dangerous. If Deep Strike is not movement, then it wouldn't matter if the terrain is Dangerous or not.
2. Models that Deep Strike cannot move further.
3. In the Shooting phase, models that Deep Strike count as having moved, vehicles having counted as having moved at Combat Speed.

As such, I think it's clear that Deep Strike itself is movement.

As to why it's not movement until after it's complete, if the model is moving while deep striking, then models would have to take a dangerous terrain test for entering terrain, and would not be able to be within 1" of enemy units or within impassable terrain. If the Deep Striker cannot be within 1" of an enemy model (or within impassable terrain) , then the only time you would be able to mishap is if you scatter into a friendly unit.

You decide where to go, roll scatter, and place it where the marker indicates. If that location is illegal, you've got a problem. The text lists examples, but the key words are "if any of the models in the unit cannot be deployed...". So you move the Skimmer, and see if it's in an illegal position. Since it can safely move away when being on top of a unit, it isn't.

Can you rephrase what you're trying to say, Happyjew? I'm not understanding what you mean. The scatter dice decides where your model is going to land. The model doesn't move from the place you wanted it to land, to where the scatter dice points. It doesn't traverse that distance, as such the scatter dice isn't hampered by normal rules such as coming within 1', etc. Instead, you move from Reserves. The only place you -can- land is where the scatter dice says. As such, if that's an illegal spot, you're in trouble.

If you're trying to argue against the viewpoint that the model moves from where you wanted it to go to where it really ends up going, then I'm afraid to say you've made a strawman. Nobody has made that argument. The dice decides where you'll go, then you start moving. Simple as that.

Similarly, if you use a Blast template, the shot doesn't fly from where you aimed at to where it really landed. It is shot at the final destination, without traversing the distance between there and where you wanted it to go. Same with DS. You're making the rules more complicated and weirder than they could possibly be by saying "It's movement, but only once you're already there." There's no proof to support that.

Unahim wrote:
You decide where to go, roll scatter, and place it where the marker indicates. If that location is illegal, you've got a problem. The text lists examples, but the key words are "if any of the models in the unit cannot be deployed...". So you move the Skimmer, and see if it's in an illegal position. Since it can safely move away when being on top of a unit, it isn't.

Except the Skimmer has to first be forced to end its move on top of a unit before the skimmer rule comes into affect. Mishap happens before this.

Can you rephrase what you're trying to say, Happyjew? I'm not understanding what you mean. The scatter dice decides where your model is going to land. The model doesn't move from the place you wanted it to land, to where the scatter dice points. It doesn't traverse that distance, as such the scatter dice isn't hampered by normal rules such as coming within 1', etc. Instead, you move from Reserves. The only place you -can- land is where the scatter dice says. As such, if that's an illegal spot, you're in trouble.

I was asked why I believe that a Deep Striking model hasn't moved until it has completely finished the Deep Strike rule. I was attempting to explain my viewpoint. As such I broke it up into two parts - first why Deep Striking itself is movement, and then why the model has not moved until after completing the deep strike.

If you're trying to argue against the viewpoint that the model moves from where you wanted it to go to where it really ends up going, then I'm afraid to say you've made a strawman. Nobody has made that argument. The dice decides where you'll go, then you start moving. Simple as that.

I'm not arguing against that viewpoint, though it has been brought up in the past. I was simply trying to explain why the scatter could not be movement.

Similarly, if you use a Blast template, the shot doesn't fly from where you aimed at to where really it landed. It is shot at the final destination, without traversing the distance between there and where you wanted it to go. Same with DS. You're making the rules more complicated and weirder than they could possibly be by saying "It's movement, but only once you're already there." There's no proof to support that.

I was asked to explain my viewpoint. I used rules to explain how I got there. If you disagree with my reasoning that's fine, but I'm not arguing it or claiming it is RAW. If you wish to discuss this further, either PM me or start a thread. Either way, I'll try to explain my views.

Mishaps only happen if the position would make the unit unable to move there. That's not the case for the Skimmer, so even though the mishap comes before the move is concluded, that's no problem here. There will be no mishap, since the position is legal for the Skimmer.

No, that isnt how mishaps occur. Mishaps occur because the mnodel could not be deployed there. Find a rule allowing the skimmer to be deployed there.