[STAW] Suggested tournament format from WK

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**PlaguelordHobbyServices**

Tamwulf wrote:
PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
Tamwulf wrote:
PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
Excuse me? But when there are upgrades for ships (and these upgrades come with the ships mind you) cost enough to push the total of the ship above 50 (sphere starts at 42, right?) Meaning the Sphere can't take a non-generic captain and Feedback pulse, and it can't even take Borg Ablative Hull Armor, a card IT COMES WITH...

See the problem?

It's Borg, so I see no problem at all.

If Wiskids came out with a FAQ tomorrow banning all Borg from game play, said "we're sorry, it was a mistake to make the Borg", and never made another Borg ship, I'd be happy.

Over 50 other ships in the game, with over 300 different cards in the game, and all you ever, EVER see is a Borg Sphere or Borg Cube with Picard and add 1-2 other upgrades (Wayoun and Varrel). The Borg didn't "change the meta", they broke this game.

All I'm hearing is "I don't get to play with my under cost, most maneuverable ship, 360 firing arc, and highest base attack value in the game all before upgrades" No sympathy for the Borg or Borg players.

Since you have no problem with Borg becoming useless for Tournament Play, how about YOU refund me my $115 I paid for all my borg stuff? BTW, if you hated seeing Picard and stuff on the sphere, Maybe your venue should've initiated a Faction pure ruleset? You can only mix factions is everyone is okay with it. If you brought up your concerns logically, you probably would've been able to push Faction pure at your store... But instead, you cried and complained until WK decided that it was time to make people who paid good money for their product pay even more by not being able to use that product at tournaments competitively... Seriously, there's nothing wrong with Faction pure dreadnought builds... And I think it's funny, the solution to Weyoun/Varel is actually coming out in the RIF grand prize, Borg Faction Data, go look it up. It solves the problem nicely, should've been a retail release... But no, complainers gonna complain.

Hmmm. How about YOU refund ME my (estimated) $500 in non-Borg stuff (30+ ships, and e-Bay purchases), and while we are at it, you can refund all my OP entrance fees too? I've stood on my soapbox and preached the evilness of the Borg since they came out, and yet I was shouted down by my group who at first, didn't see any issues. I argued for banning the Borg, yet the best we got was ship pure. Now, that's ship pure in MY play group, NOT the other two groups I play with that, you guessed it, play Borg. Last night was a perfect example of why this tournament stuff needs to be implemented. One of the local stores played RiF OP1, nine players. Four were Borg- two players with two Spheres and the exact same upgrades, and funny enough, they both got the Scout cube as the blind draw. One player had a Cube Dreadnaught build and his blind ship (I have no idea what it did as he destroyed my entire fleet in three turns thanks to Borg Mines and Cloaked Mines). The last guy had a Sphere and Octa. Top four? All Borg. I have consistently seen this in event, after event, after event.

In a ship pure or faction pure venue, the Borg are barely manageable IF you bring the right fleet to deal with them, IF the dice treat you well, IF you make no mistakes, and IF the Borg player makes mistakes... too many IFs. I'm tired of losing all the time to the over powered Borg. Ya know what the guys say to me at the LGS? "You should play Borg if you don't like to lose all the time". It's a point of pride for me now- I will never play a Borg Sphere, Cube, Octagon, Dodecahedron, or any other geometric shaped Borg ship.

Ya know what's killing this game? The Borg and seeming lack of concern by Wizkids and the Borg players. WHEN this game fails, it'll be because of all the Borg players who have no issue at all with their under cost, most maneuverable in the game, and highest attack dice ships when the other factions have no answer for it at all. When you look around and all you see are Borg ships at your LGS... that's when you'll know the game is done.

It would seem Wizkids doesn't want STAW to die just yet... and this new tournament format is a step in the right direction.

Well, I'm sure if you didn't run a Paper Mache' army, things might've gone differently for you. Even against a stacked Cube, my Generic Raptor class ships lasted more than a few turns... if MY measly little 5 hp ships can last a few turns, I'm sure you could've been running something at least as comparable. Although, if your fleet was just 3 mirandas though, then yeah, I'd expect the borg to rip through your fleet in no time at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6YjzqjTZSE&feature=youtu.be there's the Grand Prize Ship. As it stands, you can either A) Run the Borg Queen and that's it, or B) Run a Generic Drone, Data (only get one use out of it, so make it count) and MAYBE Interplexing Beacon (but this is useless as your Drone only has 1 drone token...)

The ability is useless for OP play as you'll never be able to get even a single Borg Tech on it without the use of a generic captain, and then you won't be able to use Data but once...

Seriously, this is why I have issue with their new rules which my TO seems to want to use just to make me angry.

**emperorpenguin**

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
-PlaquelordHobbtservices

Aren't these your words from August 24th in the old tactics and battle reports thread?

"Well, I'm attempting to get Borg BANNED at our OP events, and the only way they'll listen to me, is to abuse their brokenness myself.

I need help for a borg build for Collective OP2. Ideally, would like to run a Tac Cube, but Double sphere would work too. "

So the Borg were broken and needed to be banned? But now that you use them they are OK and everyone is over reacting
I think you may be over reacting a bit.

Plaguelord you seem to be going out of your way to avoid acknowledging Baldrick's post!

I disagree there's nothing wrong with faction-pure dreadnoughts. You try taking down a fully tooled up Voyager which is throwing as many dice as a cloaked romulan BUT has shields AND has ablative armour AND clears auxiliaries each turn. The only way to do so is with a Borg missile build! Faction pure Romulans are dead here. Klingons are losing favour. Vulcans, Bajorans, Kazon etc just don't see play.
At our recent OPs all we see are Voyagernaughts and Borg

**Vakruz**

I'm not trying to troll, just all the borg hate gets to me, normally people adapt to meta changes instead of asking for things to be banned, I honestly kind of understand. I just don't want to see so many ships never used again :(

**Djbillson**

I like them, ya you can Borg Missile some Fed builds with unrestricted point, but you can also counter that Borg Missile with other builds, it becomes a large paper, rock, scissors game. And with Fed taking 360 arc ships, and Borg having 360 arc the movement phase has little affect in the game. Playing when movement matters add a whole new level to the game other than just moving a 7 defense, auto battle station, 10 attack dice Voyager around the table blowing things up, or getting assaulted with two Borg spheres with missile and just dying.

I think it will make games more tactical, Go figure a game with limited builds, different movement dials, and firing archs make you think about how your own ships should move, and how your opponent will move. But my LFGS only has one dedicated Borg and we do faction pure so we don’t have to deal with crazy combos and everyone tends to try new things each OP, I love my LFGS. In the end it’s the player base that makes/break this game.

**PlaguelordHobbyServices**

emperorpenguin wrote:
Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
-PlaquelordHobbtservices

Aren't these your words from August 24th in the old tactics and battle reports thread?

"Well, I'm attempting to get Borg BANNED at our OP events, and the only way they'll listen to me, is to abuse their brokenness myself.

I need help for a borg build for Collective OP2. Ideally, would like to run a Tac Cube, but Double sphere would work too. "

So the Borg were broken and needed to be banned? But now that you use them they are OK and everyone is over reacting
I think you may be over reacting a bit.

Plaguelord you seem to be going out of your way to avoid acknowledging Baldrick's post!

I disagree there's nothing wrong with faction-pure dreadnoughts. You try taking down a fully tooled up Voyager which is throwing as many dice as a cloaked romulan BUT has shields AND has ablative armour AND clears auxiliaries each turn. The only way to do so is with a Borg missile build! Faction pure Romulans are dead here. Klingons are losing favour. Vulcans, Bajorans, Kazon etc just don't see play.
At our recent OPs all we see are Voyagernaughts and Borg

Yeah, well Borg haven't even WON an OP event around here, so they were perfectly fine, My TO just wants to institute the new rules just to make me angry (because he's a miserable person and the only way he can be happy is if he's making someone else miserable... PS, I'm not the only one who's noticed this, a lot of people have told me he's just a miserable person who doesn't actually WANT to be at the store...)

I finally built TWO lists that could shut down the EVadagernaught lists that one person around here likes using, and now they both got nerfed... One list involved a 90 point Tactical Cube and the other was my 90 point Enterprise E, by Constantly throwing out more attack dice than Voyager got defense dice, I could get a gain each turn and damage the thing.

**emperorpenguin**

But the Voyager builds won't be around either!

You still refuse to admit that you wanted Borg banned and changed your mind because you found them easy to use

**PlaguelordHobbyServices**

emperorpenguin wrote:
But the Voyager builds won't be around either!

You still refuse to admit that you wanted Borg banned and changed your mind because you found them easy to use

I hadn't even had a chance to use my Borg builds yet! I acquired all my borg stuff after the last OP event, and was waiting for RIFOP1 to use them, then this drops literally 2 weeks before RIFOP1 and we're expected to just change what he had, I'm not prepared for a rules change... And frankly, I don't like it.

**Vakruz**

Well I guess I'm going to be ignored, and frankly I deserve it, so I apologize to everyone I offended

**Tamwulf**

Vakruz wrote:
Well I guess I'm going to be ignored, and frankly I deserve it, so I apologize to everyone I offended

The only change in the meta the Borg have provided is this:

Play Borg, or you will lose.

There is one, ONE build (maybe two, but the Enterprise E can't take ablative armor or throw a 10 attack dice torp) that can take on the Borg- a Voyager Dreadnaught. How does that change the meta? The Borg did one thing: Kill every other ship/fleet in the game. There is no other response to the Borg but to play Borg.

Even with these changes, a plain Borg Cube will be a fearsome model on the table with the most maneuverable dial, 360 attack arc, and highest base attack value (I realize that Bioships and the Dom. Battleship also throw 6 attack dice, but the statement is still true).

**PlaguelordHobbyServices**

Tamwulf wrote:
Vakruz wrote:
Well I guess I'm going to be ignored, and frankly I deserve it, so I apologize to everyone I offended

The only change in the meta the Borg have provided is this:

Play Borg, or you will lose.

There is one, ONE build (maybe two, but the Enterprise E can't take ablative armor or throw a 10 attack dice torp) that can take on the Borg- a Voyager Dreadnaught. How does that change the meta? The Borg did one thing: Kill every other ship/fleet in the game. There is no other response to the Borg but to play Borg.

Even with these changes, a plain Borg Cube will be a fearsome model on the table with the most maneuverable dial, 360 attack arc, and highest base attack value (I realize that Bioships and the Dom. Battleship also throw 6 attack dice, but the statement is still true).

Actually, there were Klingon builds that were REALLY good against both Borg and Fed Dread builds, They utilized a nice little card that came out in Wave 0... Projected Stasis Field. I'm sure that Voyagernaught is sure throwing dice around like crazy when they have no shields, and no attack for the round?

**emperorpenguin**

I've yet to see Projected Stasis Field actually used in game. It gets countered by Miles O'Brien for Feds or Ass Tubes for Borg. Same way we've yet to see a Breen energy dissipator defeat the Borg yet

**Mr. S Baldrick**

emperorpenguin wrote:
I've yet to see Projected Stasis Field actually used in game. It gets countered by Miles O'Brien for Feds or Ass Tubes for Borg. Same way we've yet to see a Breen energy dissipator defeat the Borg yet

I have taken out Voyager a couple times with a Stasis Field. I got it off on a Borg Sphere once, hull armour kept it alive with one hull left. The shields came back up and it took 2 more turns to chase it down.

**emperorpenguin**

I'm sure it CAN be done, but sadly what has happened is that everyone has switched to playing Borg or Voyager here in order to win, rather than hoping for luck necessary to win with anything else.
Transphasics see a lot of use here, we were playing a casual game last week - my Vulcans at 150 points v two Fed players at 75 each. I was annoyed when they used transphasics against Vulcans, which I found over the top (never mind they were playing Voyager & E dreadnoughts!)

**spyguyyoda**

The stasis field is nice, but I've never had a chance to use it against a dreadnought build. It sure kills smaller ships dead, though.

**easysauce**

positive changes, 99% of builds it invalidates are builds that are not fun to play against.

my voyager super builds are invalidated, boo hoo, same with lots of stupid borg lists I could have played (had I not shelved all my borg stuff after mercelessly winning every single game I have ever played with them, I felt like I had an unfair advantage using borg, to the point where I refused to use them)

far FAR more builds are enabled by the change,

good on WK's for making it

**Zond**

I'm much more interested in Attack Wing and I'll be waiting to see if any local groups follow the guidelines.

**drewb**

Only just started playing the game, but shouldn't it be about movement, tactics and a little luck rather than who can design the best build on paper?

**Rune Stonegrinder**

Humm not sure how I feel about this, since I started to make federation dreadnoughts with Voyger and now the Ent-E I've been deafeating Borg 4 out of 5 games. Crosis has been causing some annoyances lately. I enjoyed the Dreadnoughts alot cause they put the Borg in thier place, as long as you don't see the Weyoun Varel B.S.

I got mixed feeling about, we'll se if we adopt it come next OP event

**Compel**

Has the wording for this changed?

"If your ship’s base cost is 43 points or more you may add up to 8 Points for upgrades (Crew, Tech, Weapons, and Borg) as well as a captain even if those cards bring your cost over 50 points."

I seem to remember reading it as or a captain - as in, you can have upgrades, or a captain, not both. - That might have just been my imagination though.

Incidentally... What does the 'as well as' a captain actually mean in this context?

Is it:
8 points for upgrades as well as a captain. (AKA thou shalt not have more than 51 points)

Or is it

8 points for upgrades. As well as a captain. So, potentially something like 58 points total if you have 8 points of upgrades plus Picard?

If it's the latter, then Borg will end up being just as killy as ever, won't they? Only difference is, they'll have a Scout Cube hanging around sniping at things too.

**Mr. S Baldrick**

Take out the parentheses and it's a little easier to understand. 8 points for upgrades as well as captains. So 8 points total for both.

**MeanGreenStompa**

Compel wrote:Has the wording for this changed?

"If your ship’s base cost is 43 points or more you may add up to 8 Points for upgrades (Crew, Tech, Weapons, and Borg) as well as a captain even if those cards bring your cost over 50 points."

I seem to remember reading it as or a captain - as in, you can have upgrades, or a captain, not both. - That might have just been my imagination though.

Incidentally... What does the 'as well as' a captain actually mean in this context?

Is it:
8 points for upgrades as well as a captain. (AKA thou shalt not have more than 51 points)

Or is it

8 points for upgrades. As well as a captain. So, potentially something like 58 points total if you have 8 points of upgrades plus Picard?

If it's the latter, then Borg will end up being just as killy as ever, won't they? Only difference is, they'll have a Scout Cube hanging around sniping at things too.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:Take out the parentheses and it's a little easier to understand. 8 points for upgrades as well as captains. So 8 points total for both.

Sorry to say that I don't agree as I believe the ruling is to afford expensive ships a limit of 8 upgrades pts + a captain.

This stems from how I'm reading the previous rule, 50pts with inclusive text pertaining to upgrades and crew, vs the wording in this explicitly stating 8pts of ( ) as well as a captain, with no set upper limit due to the varying cost of captains.

'even if those cards bring your cost over 50 points.' doesn't mean 'ships over 43pts have a 51pt maximum'.

**Mr. S Baldrick**

That is what I am saying 8 points for everything, 43+8, or 44+8, 46 +8, etc. I am sure that also includes admirals and resources assigned to the ship because they are neither captains or upgrades.

**PlaguelordHobbyServices**

They should've just said this for expensive ships that cost above 43 points.

If your fleet contains a ship that has a base SP cost of 43 SP or higher, your fleet does not need to have a 3 ship minimum and may take as many upgrades as it is allowed to take.

Still hinders the other borg ships, except we still get to use our Tac Cube as it was intended.

**Davor**

*edit*

Better left unsaid.

**PlaguelordHobbyServices**

Davor wrote:
*edit*

Better left unsaid.

No, go ahead, say it.

I was at work when you posted it, I'd absolutely LOVE to see what you had to say... Now that I know you have something you want to say, and aren't saying it now that I'm paying attention, it just means you're not entirely confident that your position on the matter is entirely based on solid ground... a Little shaky perhaps?

**RiTides**

Something edited out / removed is indeed, usually better left unsaid.

Let's keep it civil in here, chaps. It's totally okay to disagree and discuss why, of course, but please remember Dakka rules 1 and 2 (Be polite, and stay on topic). Thanks.

**Compel**

I'm glad I wasn't the only one confused, someone else asked the question on Wizkids new rules forum.

http://www.wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1941&sid=feda79a5c1f64436e7c3bc4746a3b0f6

**MeanGreenStompa**

Compel wrote:
I'm glad I wasn't the only one confused, someone else asked the question on Wizkids new rules forum.

http://www.wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1941&sid=feda79a5c1f64436e7c3bc4746a3b0f6

STAW RULING:
Yes include the cost of the resources Flagship, Fleet Captain, Officer Cards, and Skilled Helmsman in the 50 point cap.
So if you are running the 4th Division Battleship (36 FP) you can add the Flagship Resource (10 FP) and up to 4 Fleet Points of Upgrades/Captain/Admiral to your ship.
The Queen Vessel Prime (42 FP) can take 8 points of Upgrades/Captain/Admiral/Resource. The Flagship Resource is 10 Fleet Points. So the Queen Vessel Prime cannot be equipped with a Flagship.

Should make borg player's lives more interesting...

**PlaguelordHobbyServices**

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Compel wrote:
I'm glad I wasn't the only one confused, someone else asked the question on Wizkids new rules forum.

http://www.wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1941&sid=feda79a5c1f64436e7c3bc4746a3b0f6

STAW RULING:
Yes include the cost of the resources Flagship, Fleet Captain, Officer Cards, and Skilled Helmsman in the 50 point cap.
So if you are running the 4th Division Battleship (36 FP) you can add the Flagship Resource (10 FP) and up to 4 Fleet Points of Upgrades/Captain/Admiral to your ship.
The Queen Vessel Prime (42 FP) can take 8 points of Upgrades/Captain/Admiral/Resource. The Flagship Resource is 10 Fleet Points. So the Queen Vessel Prime cannot be equipped with a Flagship.

Should make borg player's lives more interesting...

You must mean miserable, because I haven't gotten to play borg yet, and all this does is make me want a refund from WK for all the borg ships I purchased...

**emperorpenguin**

Is there an echo in here?