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Im pretty sure this has been discussed somewhere, but could not find the topic.

I just bought new space wolves codex and got this feeling that grey hunters just feel like a bit weird troop choise. Almost like they don't know what they want to do. This as i see the differences between these two units.

Blood claws
Pros:
+ Cheap,
+ Rage
+ chainsword (I know it's situational, but i feel like bloodclaws get chainsword for free. Literally when compared to Grey Hunters)
Cons:
-1ws&bs

Grey Hunters:
Pros:
+They can actually hit with melta/plasmagun with bs 4. (im not even sure ift this should be noted as a con for 14pts marine model)
Cons:
- i feel like they are expensive, even when they have to pay "only" 1pts for acute senses & counter attack special rules (this is - kind of understandable because special rules can't be free, but meh...)
- They don't get heavy weapons.(I list this as con because i feel like grey hunters should be holding objectives instead of assaulting. I think blood claws do assaulting better, even thou they have worse ws. + They dont need bs when using flamers.)
- they have to pay 2pts for closecombat weapons, when bloodclaws get chainswords, pretty much for free. Btw, it seems like chainsword + closecombat weapons are totally the same weapon, as far as the stats go?)

All in all, i think blood claws are cheaper and know what they should be doing. Unlike Grey Hunters. They feel just expensive to me, and drop to that weird spot where they are pretty much good at nothing. They don't have heavy weapon option for holding objectives, and they have to pay for counter attack special rule which is not good for holding objectives in general(not against most armies anyway).

Could be that 14pts models aren't that "expensive". I get why they don't get heavy weapons as far as the fluff goes, but argh... my brain, i don't understand how this unit is supposed to function.

Btw, this is not supposed to be a runt. I just want to understand, if i understand Grey Hunters or not. It's highly likely im missing something at this point. So im asking you to correct me if im wrong.

Thanks for your time.

Grey Hunters and Blood Claws offer totally different things, and each excel in different roles. In most lists, I'd add that both have a place.

Blood Claws are out-and-out Assault troops, they do one thing and do it well, with their insane number of attacks on the charge and the ability to drop 2 flamer templates before going in. The can also take 'hidden' power weapons, but given that so much of their strength comes from their relative cheapness, I'm not convinced that is neccessary. What they almost certainly will need, unless you're running a Grey Tide of 40+ and support, is a Transport. In terms of speed, a Drop Pod will get them into battle fastest, and if they drop on T1 they should be in CC by turn 2, the downside being they have to endure a round of shooting first. The Stormwolf transport is far more expensive, and will get into CC on T3 at the earlier, but does protect the squad a lot more from enemy fire, making them all but immune to it. The risk is the flier getting shot down, which could annihilate the squad inside, so be sure to prioritise the enemy Anti-air assets as far as possible. A Rhino is probably the worst transport option as it offers neither the speed of the Drop Pod nor the protection/firepower of the Stormwolf, but can work if you don't want either of those. For my money, though I'd take Drop Pods, or else pack them in a LRC with a Wolf Priest.

Grey Hunters, on the other hand, bring a ton of versatility. Their bolters, dual-special-weapon access and Counter Attack USR mean they are lethal at close-range combat. Once they get into the 12" range band, the enemy find themselves in danger whatever they do, as if they shoot you, you charge (if you have the extra CCW) and fight just as well as Assault Marines, if they charge, you overwatch and CA for just as many attacks. Basically, GH can be tailored to any role and perform it competently; they can be infantry-clearers if you load up on flamers and CCW, Tankbusters if you bring two Meltas, or mid-range blasters with Plasma and Bolters. They're an excellent unit for what you get, the trick is making sure you get the most from them. To that end, you want to get in close, and again, Drop Pods will help there, putting them in a position where they can do their job.

Thanks, Paradigm. That is very good answer indeed. I think i just "tunnel visioned". I was thinking for some reason "unspecialized units are usually bad". When more"well rounded" units have their uses too in warhammer.

EDIT: Im coming back to wh from years brake, so i forgot there is this "new overwatch special rule too" which makes having bolt pistol, cc weapon & bolter more usefull than before.

SwampWolf wrote:
Thanks, Paradigm. That is very good answer indeed. I think i just "tunnel visioned". I was thinking for some reason "unspecialized units are usually bad". When more"well rounded" units have their uses too in warhammer.

EDIT: Im coming back to wh from years brake, so i forgot there is this "new overwatch special rule too" which makes having bolt pistol, cc weapon & bolter more usefull than before.

In general, specialised units are better, but that's specialised in terms of role, like anti-infantry or anti-tank. The versatility of the Grey Hunters comes from all the things you can do with them once they hit the table, being good at defence, attack, or any mix of the two.

Overwatch does make charging a squad of Grey Hunters a nasty proposition. Assuming they're at full strength, you're looking at 16 bolter snap shots, whatever special weapons they are packing, and then 30 attacks in combat!

Personally, I think that Grey Hunters are just plain better than Blood Claws still. Don't get me wrong, Blood Claws are actually worth taking now that they're cheaper, but IMHO you should only take them if you're going to take 10+ in a Land Raider or Stormwolf. I keep thinking that units of 5 could be cool as cheap objective campers, but for only a few points more you could get the far more versatile GH. BC have less than half the number of shots (between their pistols and BS3 vs boltguns and BS4), and if they don't crush their opponents on the charge then they're going to be tarpitted for ages.

Blood claws serve a role in being a cheap ObSec unit which can unlock an ObSec vehicle also.

5 Blood Claws with a flamer is a very useful unit. You can plop them down on an objective, and with their 3 attacks when charged, plus Wall of Death hits they do very well defending against any other similarly priced scoring units. They do even better if you want them to clear off 10 cultists from somewhere, with 3/4 Flamer hits and 2 bolt pistol hits followed by 19 attacks when they get the charge off.

65points is also a very cheap tax to make a StormWolf Objective Secured.

So in a role, they are excellent. Much better now than they were due to the points reduction.

However if you want something with more teeth, a ten man triple melta carrying unit of Grey Hunters with a few CCWs thrown in will do brilliantly. Whether in a drop pod or a Rhino, both very good options.

If this was fifth edition, everyone would run five man blood claw squads in Razorbacks. Since it isn't, we don't.