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"The very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts..."

And yet political majorities still influence the courts, because judges are appointed by a political process; directly or indirectly.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Knives schmives!

Chakrams! It's all about the chakrams!

Sikhs should be allowed to wear chakram turbans!

Stop. Both of you. OT posts culled, any further posting OT from you and it becomes an issue

 ZultanQ wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 ZultanQ wrote:
there are most certainly public schools in this country where prayer is effectively banned. Again, I'm not going to bother providing links to common knowledge, but instead suggest that your own claims should be informed, because arguing about this besides the point of the thread

"I'm going to make an argument, get called on it, and then refused to defend it, pointing you to google instead to make my argument for me"

I should just let this go and stop posting but the bait is too delicious. Basically, it's like I'm in a kindergarten classroom arguing about melting polar ice caps, then some kid yells BUT SANTA LIVES THERE AND HE WON'T ALLOW IT. Everybody knows that Santa does not exist, but now I have stop and argue about Santa because I'm talking to a bunch of kids.

If you are going to deny that prayer is frowned upon in many American public schools and has been effectively banned in more liberal areas, then you are ignorant of an entire wave of current events and worse, you are stubbornly defending your ignorance. I shouldn't have to explain myself on this. Why do the people on the internet do this? What could you possibly gain?

If anybody would like to weigh in on my actual contribution to the thread's real topic, though, I'm all ears.

What was your contribution to the thread? It isn't fair that Sikh kids can be religious in school and Christian kids can't? Because if that's it, it is demonstrably wrong.

Christians aren't under attack in this country, despite what you believe. Kids can pray in school, they can read their holy books, they can wear articles showing their faith. My wife is a teacher in a wealthy and liberal school district with lots of Sikh kids and they get picked on. Last year, another kid pulled his Dastaar off of his head; which to them is the about equal to ripping a cross necklace off of someone and breaking it (really, it's worse because the Dastaar is required unlike a cross necklace).

If you think that schools not being allowed to lead prayers or require kids to read the Bible or any of the other stuff that is unconstitutional is Christianity being "oppressed," you should rethink your position.

 Jihadin wrote:
There is no such thing as "Idiot Proof"

Actually dagger shaped jewelery is an acceptable interpretation of the Sikh faith. This option is strongly recommended to all practitioners in the UK, though the wearing of the dagger is still legal.
Because of the very strict knife laws in the UK this was looked into a lot.

 Jihadin wrote:

Best bet. Welding the hilt to the sheath but then

IIRC you cant weld it shut, the item must have an edge but it can be of any size, so a miniature dagger worn as a broach is a good solution, its also good for the practitioner as it makes the item less cumbersome. Though from Sikhs I know the main issue is the mandatory turban, the dagger isn't anything like the same level of inconvenience.
Another option is to put a retainer bolt on the blade so that it can have an exposed edge but cannot be fully drawn.

 Jihadin wrote:

What if someone has a cross who's length is dagger shape?

Christians dont get anything like the same level of social protection, often you cant even wear crosses even if not dagger shaped. That being said core Christianity doesn't have many restrictions.

 Orlanth wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:

What if someone has a cross who's length is dagger shape?

Christians dont get anything like the same level of social protection, often you cant even wear crosses even if not dagger shaped. That being said core Christianity doesn't have many restrictions.

Interesting- now I've seen rosary beads banned because of local gang affiliations, but I've never heard of a blanket ban on crosses. Perhaps individual styles if they are indicative of local gangs, but otherwise that hasn't been my experience. What areas outright ban all religious iconography?

 Orlanth wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
There is no such thing as "Idiot Proof"

Actually dagger shaped jewelery is an acceptable interpretation of the Sikh faith. This option is strongly recommended to all practitioners in the UK, though the wearing of the dagger is still legal.
Because of the very strict knife laws in the UK this was looked into a lot.

My wife said she was pretty sure that this is what Sikh kids in her school district wear at school.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
There is no such thing as "Idiot Proof"

Actually dagger shaped jewelery is an acceptable interpretation of the Sikh faith. This option is strongly recommended to all practitioners in the UK, though the wearing of the dagger is still legal.
Because of the very strict knife laws in the UK this was looked into a lot.

My wife said she was pretty sure that this is what Sikh kids in her school district wear at school.

This is what the two families my wife have had do.

 cincydooley wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
There is no such thing as "Idiot Proof"

Actually dagger shaped jewelery is an acceptable interpretation of the Sikh faith. This option is strongly recommended to all practitioners in the UK, though the wearing of the dagger is still legal.
Because of the very strict knife laws in the UK this was looked into a lot.

My wife said she was pretty sure that this is what Sikh kids in her school district wear at school.

This is what the two families my wife have had do.

While I personally don't have a problem with a Sikh child wearing a Kirpan, I understand that some people do and I think a dagger icon/charm/pendant or something along those lines is a fair compromise.

Given that Christians can pray silently inside their heads without any sign they are doing anything but thinking, it is difficult to see how Christian prayer can effectively be banned in schools compared to Islam where practitioners have to perform certain very specific behaviours such as washing, facing Mecca, and so on.

Back to the kirpan, it is basically symbolic and most western countries allow it to be carried in general public situations.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
There is no such thing as "Idiot Proof"

Actually dagger shaped jewelery is an acceptable interpretation of the Sikh faith. This option is strongly recommended to all practitioners in the UK, though the wearing of the dagger is still legal.
Because of the very strict knife laws in the UK this was looked into a lot.

My wife said she was pretty sure that this is what Sikh kids in her school district wear at school.

This is what the two families my wife have had do.

While I personally don't have a problem with a Sikh child wearing a Kirpan, I understand that some people do and I think a dagger icon/charm/pendant or something along those lines is a fair compromise.

For children yes, adults should have a free choice.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Given that Christians can pray silently inside their heads without any sign they are doing anything but thinking, it is difficult to see how Christian prayer can effectively be banned in schools compared to Islam where practitioners have to perform certain very specific behaviours such as washing, facing Mecca, and so on.

Say that to the Eastern Orthodox.
You have to make the sign of the cross before and after. It is no respectful prayer without.

Are there many cases of Eastern Orthodox Christians being banned from praying in schools in the USA?

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Last year, another kid pulled his Dastaar off of his head; which to them is the about equal to ripping a cross necklace off of someone and breaking it (really, it's worse because the Dastaar is required unlike a cross necklace).

While I agree that is horrible given the Sikh child's assumed beliefs, you aren't in a position to state what is and is not required by another person's faith.

 Jihadin wrote:
Zero Tolerance is Zero Tolerance

Because some how some way some idiot going to try to pull that knife out. Either the owner, friend, or idiot.

Zero tolerance is just an bureaucratic way for small minded people to avoid taking responsibility for doing their job and making decisions that might upset someone.

Being in possession of a knife doesn't make somebody become violent or aggressive or careless. If the Sikh isn't a dangerous student then him having the knife changes nothing. Likewise if a student wants to cause problems or hurt somebody he/she can easily do so without a knife.

Rules against having a knife in school don't actually keep knives out of schools it's just a CYA for the administrators. It's not like students are passing through metal detectors or getting freaked when they show up for class.

 dogma wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Last year, another kid pulled his Dastaar off of his head; which to them is the about equal to ripping a cross necklace off of someone and breaking it (really, it's worse because the Dastaar is required unlike a cross necklace).

While I agree that is horrible given the Sikh child's assumed beliefs, you aren't in a position to state what is and is not required by another person's faith.

Are you just going to follow me in every thread to tell me how wrong I am?

You're right, I'm not telling people what they believe and further more, I forgot to add a "probably." While it is a generalization, what I said is pretty fair in regards to most versions of Christianity practiced in the US; the Dastar is required for a baptized Sikh, as it is an important extension of the Kesh.

But please, feel free to tell me how I'm wrong and you right because of reasons.

Prestor Jon wrote:


Rules against having a knife in school don't actually keep knives out of schools it's just a CYA for the administrators. It's not like students are passing through metal detectors or getting freaked when they show up for class.

My high school had metal detectors and I graduated in '87. My sons, when they went to county schools, had metal detectors at the middle school, and once in a while had random 'Search All Bags and Kids on the Way Into School' days.

This is a bad idea. No reason for a kid to have a knife in school. Isn't religion and school supposed to be separate. If he can carry a knife for personal reasons then why not others. Knives shouldn't be allowed in school period. If the family doesn't like it then they should go back to whatever country started that. Of course I'm not religious so it's easy for me to say no to it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is a bad idea. No reason for a kid to have a knife in school. Isn't religion and school supposed to be separate. If he can carry a knife for personal reasons then why not others. Knives shouldn't be allowed in school period. If the family doesn't like it then they should go back to whatever country started that. Of course I'm not religious so it's easy for me to say no to it.

I would like to see the memo allowing this. Where is the blade located on the individual while in school? Will the other students be given a heads up on this religion and reason why the individuals are allowed to carry a weapon? This is to"playing with fire"

 Jihadin wrote:
I would like to see the memo allowing this. Where is the blade located on the individual while in school? Will the other students be given a heads up on this religion and reason why the individuals are allowed to carry a weapon? This is to"playing with fire"

Says right at the end of the article:

In this case, the knife is to be kept under the child's clothes at all times.

"The knife can't come out. It can't be shown around. It needs to be underneath their clothing," said Auburn Assistant Superintendent of Schools Ryan Foster. "That allows them to express their religion without jeopardizing anyone's feeling of safety. If there are any problems, we will take it to the family, but we don't expect any."

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
I would like to see the memo allowing this. Where is the blade located on the individual while in school? Will the other students be given a heads up on this religion and reason why the individuals are allowed to carry a weapon? This is to"playing with fire"

Says right at the end of the article:

In this case, the knife is to be kept under the child's clothes at all times.

"The knife can't come out. It can't be shown around. It needs to be underneath their clothing," said Auburn Assistant Superintendent of Schools Ryan Foster. "That allows them to express their religion without jeopardizing anyone's feeling of safety. If there are any problems, we will take it to the family, but we don't expect any."

Thanks Kan. I do not have a warm and fuzzy on this. The blade is going to be exposed and some ass hat going to press the issue (a Bully)

I wish my religion was badass enough to still have ritual blades in this day and age.

Though now that I think about it, I don't have to deal with all the ridiculous BS that elementary/middle/high schools generate, so maybe I should just go buy myself a sword.

I'm a follower of Bacchus. My kid gets virgin grape juice for his lunch

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I always carry a knife to school. As does almost every kid in my school. No accident has ever happened. I think people are hugely overreacting. Once again, I do not get the seemingly self-contradictory American attitude to weapons. You guys have a serious love-hate relationship going on

In this case, forbidding a Sikh to wear that dagger is the same as forbidding a Muslim to wear a headscarf.

Wait aren't you Russian? I thought all Russians brought T-34s to school, just in case the hitlerites get uppity again.

"Russia" is Russian for "don't with us"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ouze wrote:
I have no problem with this, but I similarly have no problem with a kid having a swiss army knife on his keychain or a butter knife in his lunchbox. "Zero tolerance" policies are the problem, not how they are applied - zero tolerance also means zero thinking.

Also, so far every single facebook post I have seen on this has conflated Sikhs with Muslims, which is equal parts amusing and depressing.

Excellent post.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yellowfever wrote:
This is a bad idea. No reason for a kid to have a knife in school. Isn't religion and school supposed to be separate. If he can carry a knife for personal reasons then why not others. Knives shouldn't be allowed in school period. If the family doesn't like it then they should go back to whatever country started that. Of course I'm not religious so it's easy for me to say no to it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is a bad idea. No reason for a kid to have a knife in school. Isn't religion and school supposed to be separate. If he can carry a knife for personal reasons then why not others. Knives shouldn't be allowed in school period. If the family doesn't like it then they should go back to whatever country started that. Of course I'm not religious so it's easy for me to say no to it.

Horsepoop. No reason a kid shouldn't have a SWA or similar apple cutter.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Are you just going to follow me in every thread to tell me how wrong I am?

I'm not following you around. We simply take in interest in the same sorts of threads, and generally have opposing points of view. That's the sort of thing that happens on discussion forums.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

You're right, I'm not telling people what they believe and further more, I forgot to add a "probably." While it is a generalization, what I said is pretty fair in regards to most versions of Christianity practiced in the US; the Dastar is required for a baptized Sikh, as it is an important extension of the Kesh.

Many Sikh's cut their hair and forgo turbans for a variety of reasons while still remaining Sihks, so clearly adherence to symbols of the Kesh is not universally required; even if some elements of the religion lament its absence.

 CptJake wrote:

Prestor Jon wrote:


Rules against having a knife in school don't actually keep knives out of schools it's just a CYA for the administrators. It's not like students are passing through metal detectors or getting freaked when they show up for class.

My high school had metal detectors and I graduated in '87. My sons, when they went to county schools, had metal detectors at the middle school, and once in a while had random 'Search All Bags and Kids on the Way Into School' days.

The schools I attended for K-12 in TX, PA and NJ didn't have any nor do the schools in my county in NC. I've heard of them being in some of the inner city schools in NJ but never actually seen one. I realize some schools do have them but it certainly seems to be a minority.

I suppose even in the instance of having metal detectors a student with enough motivation to hurt classmates could just go through the trouble of buying or making a non metallic blade.

 Frazzled wrote:

Horsepoop. No reason a kid shouldn't have a SWA or similar apple cutter.

Something like the classic would be fine, but anything larger is problematic.

 dogma wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

Horsepoop. No reason a kid shouldn't have a SWA or similar apple cutter.

Something like the classic would be fine, but anything larger is problematic.

I can live with that.

Prestor Jon wrote:

I suppose even in the instance of having metal detectors a student with enough motivation to hurt classmates could just go through the trouble of buying or making a non metallic blade.

Made really easy if your school has a decent woodshop. Though the argument there is that the materials in a woodshop are necessary for education (much like pens, pencils, and textbooks) while a large, sharp knife is not.

pah! I can cut my apple fine with my screwdriver, thank you very much. don't need your fancy "pocket-knives" or watches for that matter!