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So I'm not sure if this is the right for this but, I discovered some old Rogue Trader models in my girlfriend's brother's attic. It has an older Rhino which looks like the Deimos Rhino Forgeworld sells and some random Chaos figures. I had a P+M blog about the Sons of Orar and I would post these questions there but, after joining the USMC too much time elapsed and the thread ended up dying. I don't want to break rules and necro it. Anyways, here is a picture I found online that looks just like it: I also couldn't find a history thread for RT so, if there is one and I missed it please don't flame me.



There are also some horribly painted Chaos Marines from the same era, judging by the box art. Am I looking at any gems here, are they worth anything? Can they even be played today? How do they compare to a normal rhino size wise?

So to be on topic with the thread title, can some of you older dreadnoughts ( ) provide some background on Rogue Trader? What was it like, was it fun? How can I find more models and information about it? Are there any gems I should keep and eye out for my SoO army? Oh and I need a page of Rogue Trader but, I don't know where to find it online. How can I find a copy of it so I can find the page my friends want me to look up?

Another question is, is this a good time to get back into the hobby? I have a grey army that is kitted out with conversions, both failed and successful with a ton of bits from SWM and other bit providers. Is now a good time to finally slap a coat of paint on them? How are the new editions rules? What edition are we even on? Is it still 6th? Furthermore, where can I go on the forums to get help building my army as a newb player?

Edit: (I guess I should add this as post script. To get a bit of background on how much I know about RT, literally the only thing I know about RT is that they had lots of beakies, and wrote "kil kil" on their guns. So as I was saying above, any info on that era would be grand.)

So to be on topic with the thread title, can some of you older dreadnoughts provide some background on Rogue Trader? What was it like, was it fun? How can I find more models and information about it? Are there any gems I should keep and eye out for my SoO army? Oh and I need a page of Rogue Trader but, I don't know where to find it online. How can I find a copy of it so I can find the page my friends want me to look up?

In a nutshell? Rogue Trader was nuts. Space Marines carrying lasguns, Eldar carrying bolters, IG Guardsmen riding Land Speeders and Land Raiders. It was fun, yes, but was basically an RPG, not a wargame.

Half-Eldar Space Marine Characters moving between roles and moving between Chapters. Space Marines being drugged-up criminals sentenced to serve in the Legions, rather than bio-engineered super-men living like Warrior-Monks.

RT was nuts. Still is.

As to finding actual rules and stuff for it? Well, Ebay/Amazon and other third-party resources (garage sales, attics, etc) are going to be your only options. The game hasn't been in publication for a long, long time. While certain things in modern 40K could be used in a Rogue Trader game, model-wise, the rules of the game now are not at all compatible with the way RT was played.

I see! I thought it was a wargame but, if it's an RPG I might need to check it out for some amusement. It sounds less grimdark and more gritty thank 40k is.

I'm trying to find more info on the Death Strike chapter? I was told it's like page 168 or something in RT? If anyone has a copy can they scan it and post it? Has anyone heard anything about this chapter, or are the retconned like the Rainbow warriors?

How can I tie my minis from 5th and 6th gen into some RT and 2nd edition minis? What can I do to them to give them a fluid theme and a shoutout back to the older days?

Also, did I post this in the right place? I probably should have put this into general discussion, oops.

It is a Wargame... in that it's played on a table with models and measuring and such but... it is an RPG at heart. It is very much "this sounds good" rather than "here's a rule for that".

For 40K fluff and lore, Lexicanum is your best bet:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Death_Strike

Oh okay, that makes sense. Thanks for answering some of my questions. Well, I guess now I will have to paint up the Rhino once I go to Games Workshop Stockholm and post it up here?

Heck yeah, old school models always* look good.


*= "Always" may not be factually correct.

Alrighty. I'm thinking I will make a single squad of Death Strike Marines with the Rhino to go with my Sons of Orar. My trip isn't till December though so by the time I get there I may have a p+m blog again to post it up on. Hopefully it goes good, I've never been to a GW store.

I'm fairly certain that you can't be accused of nercoing your own thread, as long as you're adding new content to it.

Calling Rogue Trader a "role playing game" is something a misnomer. 1st Edition 40K was just something of an evolving product that didn't know what it was when the first game came out.

The original rulebook did presuppose having a "Game Master" who would arbitrate the battles for campaigns, But later updates and supplements simply provided more detailed army lists and removed the requirement for a neutral third party and looked much more like the modern game we know now (and eventually it was all coalesced into the 2nd Edition game, which was more or less the start of "modern" 40K in terms of setting and game play).

Regardless, the game was still a skirmish battles system. It was just intended for the "Game Master" to construct a narrative for the battles so that you were playing out a story. There weren't experience points or character advancement (though there could be wounds for models who were taken out of action in a game if you used those campaign rules). Basically, all the "forge the narrative" stuff we hear about 6th and 7th. But it also had rudimentary point values for play without a "Game Master".

As an example of how RT played, this is from the Battle at the Farm, introductory scenario. As you can see, it is fairly easy going.



The information on the Death Strike in the book is actually referring to an image of the Rainbow Warriors whose Chapter symbol is similar to that of the Death Strike Chapter, the Death Strike themselves are not mentioned in RT and any connection is rumour. Unfortunately there is very little information on the Death Strike but that means you can just come up with your own.

The Rhino in the picture you linked is actually from 2nd edition. The RT kits were the same, but the box art was different, and they were made from nasty beige plastic.

RT and 2nd edition had much more depth and detail than the modern games. There were a lot of random effects and result tables. Vehicles weren't just destroyed, they would go 'out of control' and plow into friendly troops, or explode and have the turret blow off and land on someone. Flamers would set people on fire, and leave them flailing around as their squad-mates tried to beat out the flames. Close combat gave you a blow for blow account of the fight, with parries, fumbles and critical hits. It was all very involved. There was a whole section of the rulebook dedicated to the psychological effects that units could suffer from: Fear, Terror, Hatred, Frenzy, Madness, Stupidity etc...

One of the most interesting tables I recall was for hallucination grenades. It had all these crazy effects, like paranoia where models would turn on their squad-mates, or euphoria where they would believe they can fly and go skipping off across the battlefield. The funny thing is, I don't remember any army actually being able to equip them. There was lots of stuff like that. Weapons and units that had rules but no model and never showed up anywhere, but it added a lot of depth to the background.

Models also had a few more stats on their profile, such as Movement (speed), Intelligence, Willpower. Weapons had a profile too, which included a save modifier and a damage stat. Damage told you how many wounds the weapon inflicted per hit (for example D6+3). A lot of this stuff was taken out because allegedly "you don't need it", but apparently you do need it, as it was all added back in the form of ad hoc special rules: things like Instant Death, Rending, Fleet etc... I personally preferred the old system. It was much easier when all units moved M and all weapons did D. I find it more consistent than some weapons ID some units, and some units having different rules for running.

Anyway, for all their charm, RT and 2nd ed took a long time to play, and could get quite tedious with large games. It was more about small skirmish games and overly powerful heroes. For larger games we had Epic.

 Smacks wrote:
It was more about small skirmish games and overly powerful heroes. For larger games we had Epic.

I was going to say, this was the problem. Skirmish games can only really be played enjoyably with a dozen or so models per side and no-one will pay 28mm prices for 6mm figures. So, how to 'improve' the game? Make the 28mm game play like the 6mm game (but nowhere near as well) and cancel all the 6mm models and instead replace them with 28mm versions which cost about forty times as much.

I started during 2nd Edition and when 3rd came out I still played for a few years (just about managed to get one or two games in during 4th) but it was never the same and if you used the same army in 3rd as you had in 2nd (after changing any of the illegal weapon combos et cetera...) then you could be finished in twenty minutes; my first game of 3rd lasted three turns as I recall, my combat squad of marines reduced to one model (the sergeant) in the second turn. The sergeant then moved and fired, killing one model, assaulted and won the assault, the enemy squad (Dark Eldar) then ran but the sergeant outran them and the remaining nine Dark Eldar were destroyed by sweeping advance or whatever the term was/is. Ironically, the objective was to secure a building at the centre of the table and since the Sergeant had wiped out the enemy so quickly he hadn't got to it, so technically I lost the game... EDIT: needless to say, that was a sample game that did not use FOC which was obviously a very new idea at the time.

One of the most interesting tables I recall was for hallucination grenades. It had all these crazy effects, like paranoia where models would turn on their squad-mates, or euphoria where they would believe they can fly and go skipping off across the battlefield. The funny thing is, I don't remember any army actually being able to equip them.

IIRC, Eldar could carry Hallucinogen and Psyk-Out grenades.

 Psienesis wrote:
IIRC, DEldar could carry Hallucinogen and Psyk-Out grenades.

I had to go look that up in my old books. It isn't in the Eldar wargear list, but then hidden in the footnotes for Harlequin Shadow Seers, it says they can take a pack grenade launcher with Hallucinogen grenades!

The only other place I can find it is the Imperial Agents list in the black codex. So I guess Inquisitors and Judges would have been able to take it too. I'm not sure about Psyk-Out grenades. I think they were created exclusively for the Culexus Assasin, which was one of the very last additions to the game before it all changed to 3rd ed.

@ The Op. Kid Kyoto has a series of Retro Review articles on Dakka. You might find some of those interesting if you like reading about the old days
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/209516.page

Hey all, just wanted to let you know that you guys are awesome, and I have enjoyed all that you have told me. It's been a pleasure watching you guys talk about the older days too. So I have decided I will drop by GW Stockholm, since it's their capital and all I believe, so that should by default make the GW good, and I am going to take these 2nd edition Chaos Marines and give them away to someone who wants them, and I am going to take a painting session on the Rhino. (I also found some amazing Cardstock tutorials online, I am going to give it extra armor and make it a Predator if that is even possible or legal in the rules.) I also bookmarked the link Smacks gave me but, it seems a bit wonky at this point. Googling Kid produces a lot of results though.

So yeah, RT and 2nd edition sound way more fun than the current (insert whatever edition number we're on, I don't know anymore, just got back into the hobby,) edition and honestly, a lot dirtier and grittier. From what little I've read that you guys have supplied and doing more googling, it seems like the SM are less monkish and more "soldiery," and also it seems to reflect that war is hell, moreso than "it's the end of days, the Imperium is getting picked apart and ravaged."

Oh and for the Rhino, it will probably be in Death Strike, Mentors, Star Phantom, or Grey Slayer colors. Thank you all for the resources you've shared. Oh and for the lols, I should mention that when I saw "Kil Kil Kil," on Veteran Sergeant's shoulderplate profile picture, and found his P+M blog about the conversions; I probably could have saved myself and all you the trouble of sharing stories and just clicked there to see how to make my models more "old school." Still, thanks all.

 Coldwill wrote:
Smacks gave me but, it seems a bit wonky at this point.

Sorry, my bad, the name of the article ended in a parenthesis so Dakka wasn't able to convert the link. So I just linked to his his original post instead, should work now

Oh god, I'm a moron. Thank you!

Edit: It's beautiful...:')

 Psienesis wrote:

One of the most interesting tables I recall was for hallucination grenades. It had all these crazy effects, like paranoia where models would turn on their squad-mates, or euphoria where they would believe they can fly and go skipping off across the battlefield. The funny thing is, I don't remember any army actually being able to equip them.

IIRC, DEldar could carry Hallucinogen and Psyk-Out grenades.

There were NO DEldar in RT or 2nd ed of the game. Craftworlders (1990) WD127 and their specific aspect warriors came in AFTER the harlequins were introduced in around WD95.
Whilst the eldar craftworlds WERE mentioned in the RT rules, they weren't that well fleshed out.

 chromedog wrote:
There were NO DEldar in RT or 2nd ed of the game. Craftworlders (1990) WD127 and their specific aspect warriors came in AFTER the harlequins were introduced in around WD95.
Whilst the eldar craftworlds WERE mentioned in the RT rules, they weren't that well fleshed out.

I just thought that he meant to write Eldar (D is right next to E on the keyboard).

2nd edition codex Eldar does actually mention (and have rules for) Eldar Pirates. Which would probably be the best fit for DE retrospectively. I'm pretty sure I also saw Chaos Eldar (and Chaos Squats) mentioned in some of my older RT era WDs (or possibly a Citadel Journal), but unfortunately I don't have that stuff anymore to check. I remember really cool black and white artwork though.

Indeed, that is a typo. Fixed now.

Yeah, the SAME pirates were in RT.

Yriel's Eldritch Raiders were one of the pirate bands with an army list in RT (First book of the astronomican). There were also human pirates and ork freebootaz.
I used to play that army in 1st ed days - switched to a craftworld list for a bit (with pirates and stuff ) in 2nd but only played about a dozen games of 2nd ed all up.

The fluff for the raiders got a slight tweak when he got brought back in 5th ed?

 Stormwall wrote:
Thank you all for the resources you've shared. Oh and for the lols, I should mention that when I saw "Kil Kil Kil," on Veteran Sergeant's shoulderplate profile picture, and found his P+M blog about the conversions; I probably could have saved myself and all you the trouble of sharing stories and just clicked there to see how to make my models more "old school." Still, thanks all.

Glad you enjoyed it.