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 Ailaros wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:The Helldrake ignores cover (Tsons do not),

is way harder to kill as its AV12 and only hit on 6's

the Helldrake got to its targets faster and easier with less concerns about LoS and range,

it can't be assaulted or tarpiited, it also got to hurt things just by flying over them,

and didn't have to split time sitting on objectives.

And, in reverse order:

helldrakes can't superscore.

helldrakes can't assault or tarpit (especially useful with a 4++)

helldrakes gain the drawbacks of fliers along with their benefits (never showing up on time, vulnerable to interceptor and skyfire, etc.)

helldrakes are easier to kill because they have hull points and can suffer vehicle explodes results. They care a lot less about bolters, but a lot more about everything stronger.

You...aren't actually serious, are you?
1. MoT Sorcerers are bad in the first place, so why would ANYONE want them to superscore? A giant Cultist squad would do better.
2. They don't NEED to assault or tarpit because of their gun and Vector Strike. Plus you're just using Rubric Marines as expensive Cultists at this point. A single Rubric is going to do worse against common targets or about the same compared to 6 Cultists. PLUS I didn't need to waste an HQ slot on a terribad MoT Sorcerer.
3. This goes both ways, with Rubrics being more vulnerable to templates and blasts, and BASICALLY every other weapon in the game because they're just a simple infantry unit.
4. You basically used this point in #3, which was ridiculously wrong.

Like, seriously, you weren't serious when you constructed that post, right?

 Ailaros wrote:

]helldrakes can't superscore.

Nope, but then you're not bringing them for that either, and in most cases, if your T'sons are just sitting on an objective, they're often not killing anything, and you can get cheaper units to sit on objectives.

helldrakes can't assault or tarpit (especially useful with a 4++)

No, but Tsons aren't particularly good for that either, even with the 4++, they're not particularly hard to get rid of, and aren't particularly scary. That's a super-expensive tarpit unit.

helldrakes gain the drawbacks of fliers along with their benefits (never showing up on time, vulnerable to interceptor and skyfire, etc.)

You are correct that their arrival is variable, that's honestly their biggest weakness, far more than anything else, but being vulnerable to skyfire isn't exactly a weakness, it just means something can shoot at them normally. There's also a huge lack of Skyfire in the game right now and often there won't be any on a table quite frequently, and most of that is only S7. On top of that, the Helldrake is well armored for a flyer and doesn't need to bother with Jinking.

helldrakes are easier to kill because they have hull points and can suffer vehicle explodes results.

Most things have trouble hitting them with frequency, and they're actually one of the few units that usually can make good use of IWND since it's so hard to hit them. It's a lot harder to kill an AV12 IWND 5++ Flyer than a unit of T4 3+/4++ marines for the overwhelmingly vast majority of armies, especially for the relative costs of each unit.

They care a lot less about bolters, but a lot more about everything stronger.

Most big guns can't hit them very easily, and big blast weapons can't hit them at all. Medium multishot weapons present the biggest threat, but they're also very effective against T-Sons, killing them as easily as they do normal marines while not caring about that 4++.

All that means is that the helldrake has the option to get into suicide range to possibly hurt something with a flyby

Nobody is going to buy that it's suicide range for the Helldrake, really. While the FAQ has nerfed their LoS with the turret weapon, which has largely quieted issues with them being busted, but they still aren't exactly in suicide range with it, have a huge range form which than can attempt to engage anything, and can hit up to two targets a turn, one simply by moving.

Ailaros wrote: People saw a torrent flamer and went goggley ... a lot of people suddenly needed to change their pants when they saw the magic words "ignores cover", and then got really pissy when their overexhuberance was challenged by the cold reality of math.

Except, unless you're only targeting a very small unit, the Helldrake will almost certainly far exceed the killing power of the Tsons.

People grossly overvalue ignores cover,

The combination of AP3, S6, and ignores cover is what makes it, not just any one thing. Toasting an entrenched marine squad on a 2+ for each model is flat out scary for most players. T'sons wounding on 4's and still allowing cover saves means they will typically inflict far fewer casualties. Even against a unit with only a 5+ cover save, lets say 10 Tsons unload on a 10 strong MEQ unit in cover. On average, they kill 4 if they're in optimal double-tap range. Lets say the Heldrakes template can hit 7, on average, it kills 6, and that's not counting its movement phase attacks. Even if it can only hit 5 guys with its template (unusual for a unit bunched in cover unless its already depleted) it's still matching the 10 Tsons (who are also notably more expensive) The Helldrake meanwhile is much safer from retaliation (as it can't be assaulted and is only hit on 6's and only vulnerable to S6+ weaponry), while the Tsons are in perfect retaliation range.

Underrated: Scout Sentinels. I've been using these things ever since 5th and the age of Vendettas all day all the time. While the vendetta was strictly superior, and arguably still is, the humble scout sentinel gives something the Imperial Guard doesn't have otherwise; outflanking medium-high strength weapons.

I usually loaded them with a Hunter Killer missile of all things and buck-standard multilasers and popped them out behind vehicles. Ork Battlewagons, walkers of various description, basically anything that isn't a Land Raider has reason to fear 6 St 6 shots and 2 St 8 shots in the rear. I once even killed Eldrad with a sentinel, it was glorious, if improbable.

Oddly enough, with the power creep of several current codexes, I've found them even more useful; wave serpents strongly dislike being destroyed by 45 point walkers, and they can be useful for taking out secondary psykers or other supporting units which can really wreck the Guard.

Overrated: Imperial Guardsmen. For the longest time, the humble guardsmen was actually one of the best troop choices out there; ludicrously cost effective in cover, natural gunline unit with a heavy and special weapon for low cost, blobs good in assault with hidden power weapons and supporting characters, and cost effective aggressive units in Chimeras. Now, however, the price increase on Chimeras, and the massive power creep in several codexes, and the overall increase in anti-infantry firepower out there, the humble Guardsmen is usually a bad investment. Orders got more powerful, which gives them some options, but blobs, gunlines and non-vet mech guard simply melt under most armies firepower or psychic powers. They're not terrible, but I find more and more that their only real use is a minimum platoon in chimeras to rush-capture objectives, but even then, Veterans are much more effective at the same task, and can lay down considerably more firepower, while also being unaffected by the Chimera nerf due to being 10 points cheaper.

Hell, even my come-back-from-the-dead immune to 25% test Kriegsmen are basically useless in most games, where either the prevalence of ignores cover/psychic/volume of fire drives them from the field.

Underrated: Thousand Sons. Yeah, I went there. Yes, they're overcosted, but have a number of functions which, while not necessarily "optimal" can be quite useful. For one, they provide an extra psychic die to actually useful casters, provide an amazing tarpit unit (especially when invisible) and aren't anywhere nearly as affected by the continuous rise of AP1/2/3 weapons in the game. The problem, as it were, is if you're running a 1ksons themed list, you really don't have much in the way of good supporting units, as Thousand Sons really aren't an army in of themselves, more an excellent speedbump and good anti-MEQ unit. Through them in a more gunline-y Chaos army with lots of psychic powers and conventional firepower, such as Havocs, Vindicators or airpower (the Turkey is good, but FW has a lot of other vehicle choices which can fit the 1ksons aesthetic better) and they perform well, better, even, than normal CSM with the in-built invuln and fearless.

That being said, they should probably be a bit cheaper or tweaked, or, le gasp, reintroduce cult versions of other units, like, oh, I don't know, Terminators?

But then, this is GeeDubs, and they thrive on the tears of broken dreams.

@Vaktahi: Yeah, my understanding of the issue with helldrakes had to do with its 360 degree flamers, which significant reduced the drawbacks of being a flier. Once the LOS was adjusted, the helldrake became much more reasonable, and at this point is just a victim of its past success. But that's not to say that it wasn't immensely powerful before.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Wow, I didn't know other people liked Tyranid Warriors. I've heard the internet thinks they're terrible. Yet, I always use them, and they never die.

The internet is a very small sample and often is just an appreciation of units at face value, i.e. they are ID'd by S8 and thats fairly common, they must be complete trash. Then looking at little deeper, in reality it is still just as durable as most the MC's you would otherwise spend the points on, and fulfills a necessary role of its own, and is better in hand to hand most the time as well

Oh, i guess I misread the post then. I agree. I use Warriors all the time, and when next to Venomthropes, they just never die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jasper76 wrote:
Triarch Stalker w/ TL Heavy Gauss cannon.

If a twin linked high strength, low AP, ranged weapon hits on a BS 4, your whole army is twin-linked. In every single game I've played where this unit has been on the board, it has paid for its points twice over.

This. Best units to tag team with are Tesla Immortals and Deathmarks.

fallinq wrote:Except you still have the problem of Terminators being just as good in CC, much more versatile, and a better value for the points. So why take Mutilators instead of Terminators?

Sure, but that's an entirely different argument. One that we can only start discussing once there is an understanding that mutilators aren't that bad.

I would certainly agree that terminators are the stronger unit in most cases (though not as good in land raiders or against monstrous creatures once their combi-weapons are blown), but terminators being better just makes them better, it doesn't make mutilators bad.

 Ailaros wrote:

Yeah, compare the WS's firepower against their points in chimeras or land raider crusaders, and then remember that they also get all the benefits of being skimmers.

Wave serpents have the same problem that falcons had in 4th edition - they have land raider toughness and leman russ firepower and ravager mobility for less than a third of the price of all of those combined.

Land Raider toughness? You lose man Land Raiders to plasma guns and krak grenades? I've never seen that.

There are three Leman Russes that are taken: Vanquisher, Punisher, Eradicator. For the specialized roles of each of those, the Wave Serpent is worse at all of them, while being substantially easier to kill, which is why it's cheaper.

You conclusion is buffoonery. You may as well have claimed that a Terminator is as tough as an Obliterator, with the firepower of two Marines, and nearly the assault capability of a Carnifex and wonder why it's so cheap. Don't make up nonsense claims. That's exactly the kind of internet-sheepleisms this thread is about.

You are smarter than that.

I never said Wave Serpents suck, I said they weren't the overpowered super-gods that the internet thinks they are.

DarknessEternal wrote:You lose man Land Raiders to plasma guns and krak grenades? I've never seen that.

I've never seen a wave serpent lost to krak grenades either. Neither have I seen land raiders jink a meltagun or shield away a lascannon hit.

DarknessEternal wrote:For the specialized roles of each of those, the Wave Serpent is worse at all of them.

An exterminator puts down 1.5 S5 hits and 3 S7 hits. The serpent puts down 1.7 S4 hits, 2.6 S6 hits, and 3 S7 hits. Even if you give the exterminator bolter sponsons, the wave serpent still outshoots it.

In any case, the wave serpent's firepower, for a dedicated transport, is in the same league as one of the stronger HS choices in the game. While being on a fast skimmer tank that can jink and choose to curb its firepower temporarily to ignore damage.

Plus, if you're really so worried about krak grenades, they're going to do a hell of a lot more to a heavy vehicle than to a fast skimmer.

DarknessEternal wrote:You may as well have claimed that a Terminator is as tough as an Obliterator, with the firepower of two Marines, and nearly the assault capability of a Carnifex and wonder why it's so cheap. Don't make up nonsense claims. That's exactly the kind of internet-sheepleisms this thread is about.

You are smarter than that.

You're the one who made up the nonsense claim. Ad hominem doesn't make straw men any more appealing.

And I wouldn't even make that analogy, either, as they're only half as tough as oblits, and nowhere near a carnifex. Just because I make an analogy you don't agree with doesn't mean I'm making a bad analogy.

DarknessEternal wrote:I never said Wave Serpents suck, I said they weren't the overpowered super-gods that the internet thinks they are.

What you said was...

DarknessEternal wrote:2. Wave Serpents - They are strictly average. They are as easy to kill as any other AV 12 vehicle (which is "not very"), while being one of the only non-imperium vehicles that actually has an amount of fire power near an imperium vehicle. For this, they are branded as overpowered, which is an incorrect conclusion. They are ok, that's it.

When they are FAR from just as easy to kill as any other AV12 vehicle (easier access to cover thanks to being fast skimmer, ability to jink, ability to shield), while they have FAR more firepower than any other imperial dedicated transports (and most of their other vehicles as well). They are branded as overpowered because their power to cost ratio is skewed way up compared to most other stuff.

SM Scouts - Underrated. Obsec units that can infiltrate/scout/outflank/move through cover, benefit from CT like bolter drill, and Krak grenade any AV12 down vehicle that strays too close in assault, all for 55pts. Ridiculous. Why even run TAC marines?

LS with 2x MM - Underated. The number of times I have had this guy pop out from reserves turn four, instagib a prominent piece of opposition Armour/MC/Character and then move onto an objective for the VP to basically change the game is astounding. Of course, if he arrives turn 2 it's a slightly different story.....

Psychic Shriek - Underated. Massively so. One of the best powers out there, easily capable of destroying a unit a turn. The only down side is the roll to hit, but master craft that psychic hood and you are laughing! (I joke, obviously).

 anyeri wrote:
1. Wolf Priest: an underrated HQ, put one in a claw unit (blood, sky or swift) and look how they squiz to the maximun PE and feel no pain, even the WP from the 5th was a solid support HQ, and now with the relics ans new rules, he is a great character to use in challenge
2. Wolf guard termies: a lot of people talk about them liek they were the plague, but i find them a solid elite choice, with lots of options from where to choose, you can make them a solid all corners unit, a couple of combi weapons and some ss make the work
3. mmm i cant think in another one

Wolf priests/Ulrik have been a go to HQ choice since the new codex came out. They deserved their horrible reputation in the 5th edition book, but I certainly haven't seen anyone under rating them in the new one.
Wolf guard terminators are absolutely terrible. Even with a TH/SS they die far too easily for the insane amount of points they cost. I have tried every loadout I can think of over about 30 games with them and every single game I wish I had something else for the points. 7th is full of long range, low AP value shenanigans. Tau or eldar will wipe them off the table before they do anything. Deep strike is notoriously inconsistent and a good way to suicide your 300 point unit before it even moves and any transport for them is costly. Bad unit is bad.

My favourite units that the internet got wrong is pretty much the entirety of 6th ed Codex Daemons.

The amount of doom and gloom posts upon its release were incredible. Yet here we are, now in 7th edition with daemons as strong as ever.

Of particular note were the pink horrors, who were slammed by some as being a one trick pony and being barely usable.
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2013/03/29/tactics-pink-horrors-tzeentch-review/

Pink Horrors of Tzeentch have gone from one of the best troops points could buy, to one of the worst lickety-split.

They were very good in 6th, and are potentially even better in 7th. Yet upon codex release they never had a chance against the naysayers until the tournament wins started coming in.

This post later amends the previous internet wisdom, and shows just how wrong people got the codex upon its release.
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2014/05/08/tactics-final-chaos-daemons-codex-breakdown/

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
My favourite units that the internet got wrong is pretty much the entirety of 6th ed Codex Daemons.

The amount of doom and gloom posts upon its release were incredible. Yet here we are, now in 7th edition with daemons as strong as ever.

Of particular note were the pink horrors, who were slammed by some as being a one trick pony and being barely usable.
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2013/03/29/tactics-pink-horrors-tzeentch-review/

Pink Horrors of Tzeentch have gone from one of the best troops points could buy, to one of the worst lickety-split.

They were very good in 6th, and are potentially even better in 7th. Yet upon codex release they never had a chance against the naysayers until the tournament wins started coming in.

This post later amends the previous internet wisdom, and shows just how wrong people got the codex upon its release.
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2014/05/08/tactics-final-chaos-daemons-codex-breakdown/

If by entirety of 6th you mean for about 2 weeks after release before Flying Circus, Khorne Hound Swarm and Screamerstar were common, then yeah underrated for the entirety of 6th....

I know you are being facetious, but I think it took about 3 months for Screamerstar to be found (for some reason, not my dex, if it was that gak wouldn't have made it past the first few hours without me noticing it, gotdamn Daemon players wake up brehs),


That being said, I agree that Daemons were never really looked at as a weak dex in 6th

 Zande4 wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
My favourite units that the internet got wrong is pretty much the entirety of 6th ed Codex Daemons.

The amount of doom and gloom posts upon its release were incredible. Yet here we are, now in 7th edition with daemons as strong as ever.

Of particular note were the pink horrors, who were slammed by some as being a one trick pony and being barely usable.
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2013/03/29/tactics-pink-horrors-tzeentch-review/

Pink Horrors of Tzeentch have gone from one of the best troops points could buy, to one of the worst lickety-split.

They were very good in 6th, and are potentially even better in 7th. Yet upon codex release they never had a chance against the naysayers until the tournament wins started coming in.

This post later amends the previous internet wisdom, and shows just how wrong people got the codex upon its release.
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2014/05/08/tactics-final-chaos-daemons-codex-breakdown/

If by entirety of 6th you mean for about 2 weeks after release before Flying Circus, Khorne Hound Swarm and Screamerstar were common, then yeah underrated for the entirety of 6th....

Check my post again please. 'entirety' here refers to most of the units from the 6th ed. Daemons codex, not a length of time. Thanks.

If I had meant the entire duration of 6th ed, it would have said: " 6th edition codex daemons for the entirety of 6th ed. Reading comprehension man.

Of course Chaos Daemons were not weak in 6th ed. But if you believed internet wisdom for a month or two after the codex landed, then you could be forgiven for thinking otherwise.
I even provided examples of how misjudged some units were to prove my point. Have a look.

Edit: For those too lazy to click the link but are in need of an example, Bloodofkittens, upon release of the codex, rated plague drones and daemon princes as bottom tier choices for a daemons army, and pink horrors as 'total crap'.
However one year later, after more tournaments and play testing, both daemon princes and pink horrors are rated as top tier picks, with plague drones also receiving greater praise.
This is sure evidence that 'the internet' really didn't understand 6th ed Codex Daemons, and in some cases were completely wrong in their opinions, when it was first released.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
3. Vendettas. Even under the old rules, I just don't see why they're supposedly so broken. Squadronning means their offensive abilities are crippled by a serious inability to properly choose their targets, and with how much they have to move, its too easy to get at the rear armour with your stationary AA guns!

In 5th, what made the Vendettas broken had to do with scout moves: You could make ANY move during "scout move", and since the vendettas were fast skimmer they could move 24" and then move and shot normally in the first turn (and unit inside could disembark as normal as well). So a vendetta could move deep into the opponent's deployment and turned towards the rear armor of any vehicle, disembark melta vets, and that's two high price vehicles that are up in smoke (and I heard one very cheezy tactic of giving vet demolition so they all had meltabombs, scout moving the 'detta, not moving in the normal turn so the vets can multi assault all the vehicles in range). And if you don't have first turn? Reserve, scout gives you outflank free, and you still get the rear armor on the vehicle of your choice. It's stupidly low cost (130 for a single detta with 12/12/10 and 3 twinlinked lascannons vs 150 for three 10/10/10 scout sentinels with normal lascans and much slower) only clinched it for spam. You didn't need to squad them, because what else are you going to use those fast attack slots on? Rough riders?.

6th invalidated that particular way of playing it, but gave the infinitely worse (in my opinion) "hard to hit" rule, making 90% of the anti vehicle weapons useless against it and you could only take one fortification vs the 3 dettas (and the gun would probably get shot out before it could do anything if the guard player was smart).

If you ask about overrated, i could name Kustom Maga Kannons. Don't get me wrong - they're not bad and actually quite decent for the cost. But i don't find KMK to be as good as most people depict them. Here are the drawbacks i've come across in my games (i'm using 2 KMK):
- overheats kill grot gunners dead. And if a gunner dies, you have to pass ld5. That's why you basically don't use ammo runts to reroll scatters and hold them for the 1-s on overheats
- 36' range. Orks are usually an offensive army. And the middle of your deployment zone is reserved for the boyz, so there will be huge 'dead zones' for KMK
- all the drawbacks of small blasts

I often find that my KMK are doing less than cheaper lobbas. However, i still use them cause they're overrated by the others and manage to draw attention actually! Besides, any big gunz are awesome chaff when i forego their shooting and rush forward to screen the grots who screen the boyz who tarpit the enemy afterwards. Works wonders vs assault-oriented armies.

All in all overrated but still decent unit. Not nearly as astounishingly good as lobbas at it's role. Lobbas had been great since 6-th even before the new codex. And now they're even better. Though, you can't take a runtherd to enchance ld now. On the other hand, big gunz are so cheap that even if the enemy wastes his time on them, points are well earned back.

1.) Helldrakes. The number one mindless, ravening fear unit until the invention of the riptide. These single-handedly destroyed every army and were invincible and ruined 40k completely.

But they were awful, or, at least, irrelevant. Helldrakes did nothing to stop any of the drawbacks from being a flier on the one hand, and on the other, the only thing they came with was an anti-infantry weapon, and at huge cost. The entire CSM codex is pretty much devoted to killing space marines, and weaker infantry, for that matter. The helldrake offered nothing that the rest of the codex wasn't already swarming with. They weren't even the best choice in their FO slot, being beaten by lord+bike combos, and, to a lesser extent, melticide raptors.

The easiest way to demonstrate how ludicrous the fear was is to compare them to 1ksons. Both were more durable than usual, both had Ap3, and both were really expensive. Yet for some reason 1ksons were the worst unit in the codex, and the helldrake was the best unit in the game.

The only thing more absurd than the crazy overvaluing during its heyday was the absolutely absurd counterreaction when it lost the extra-magic feature of its torrent weapon. It went from game breaking to literally having its balls cut off and being completely worthless and the CSM codex was junk. With a tiny change that just brought the helldrake in line with the rest of vehicle shooting rules.

And, in reverse order:

helldrakes can't superscore.

helldrakes can't assault or tarpit (especially useful with a 4++)

helldrakes gain the drawbacks of fliers along with their benefits (never showing up on time, vulnerable to interceptor and skyfire, etc.)

helldrakes are easier to kill because they have hull points and can suffer vehicle explodes results. They care a lot less about bolters, but a lot more about everything stronger.

Just to address the Heldrake point a bit, first the super scoring thing is a non-point as the heldrake rage was a 6E thing, where superscoring did not exist. Also as has already been stated you needed to take a tzeentch sorcerer to even make that happen, which is a huge opportunity cost.

Thousand sons cannot tarpit very well either, being slow and purposeful, if they win the assault people can walk away unharmed (now maybe they tarpit something that beats them, but at 20+ points per model, that is an expensive tarpit.)

Heldrakes are harder to kill point for point than thousand sons.

6 thousand sons cost about the same points as the heldrake, and die faster against basically all small arms fire, and about the same against heavy weapons without skyfire. They are also way less killy for their points (if in rapid fire against Tactical Marines, with no cover, they average 3.3 dead marines. When playing with a heldrake with the 360 degree torrent, I cannot remember a time where I was not able to cover 4-5 models, and on average all of them died. That doesn't count vecotr striking.

That said, in 7e, heldrakes are a non-issue, with nerfs to their arc, and vector strike. Even during the end of 6th you saw far less of them due to 2+ re-rollables, and mostly only saw them in FMC builds.

As others have said a lot of this depends on your meta, and experience, so rating or not rating things depends on what you see.

Tyranid warriors are pretty terrible in a meta full of Iknights, Lascannon havocs are bad if you have a lot of terrain on tables etc.

For mine

Beasts of Nurgle- Iknights hurt them quite a bit, but I never see them talked about and have used them very successfully in the past, they are way more durable than people expect.

 Ailaros wrote:

People grossly overvalue ignores cover, and they grossly overvalue fliers. Ignore all their drawbacks, and the opportunity cost...

NuggzTheNinja wrote:The point about WS is simply incorrect. Their damage output is far disproportionate for their cost.

Yeah, compare the WS's firepower against their points in chimeras or land raider crusaders, and then remember that they also get all the benefits of being skimmers.

Wave serpents have the same problem that falcons had in 4th edition - they have land raider toughness and leman russ firepower and ravager mobility for less than a third of the price of all of those combined.

Their biggest crime, though, of course, is that they make falcons pointless. HS choices as a dedicated transport should only be an option for units you pay a huge sticker price for, like terminators.

So, people grossly overvalue ignores cover, and you don't realize it makes a WS just another very expensive AV12 vehicle ?

The WS never had the toughness of a Land Raider, and this is especially true since 6th/7th, where a rear armor of 10 means any CC is a serious threat.

Leman Russ firepower ? I wonder which variant. You do know the WS has no AP, rending or armorbane right ?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:You lose man Land Raiders to plasma guns and krak grenades? I've never seen that.

I've never seen a wave serpent lost to krak grenades either.

Yes we know you lack experience with the WS, it's showing and that's why we're trying to help you realize your mistake and exaggeration.

The WS never had the toughness of a Land Raider

The wave serpent is less durable than a landraider and is therefore a poor, weak vehicle!
So....it was not just the internet......but also everyone else on the planet who was wrong......thank you morgoth for showing us how underpowered the eldar codex is!

Haha classic morgoth. Keep it up.

Regarding eldar, I would say that the wraithknight received a lot misplaced criticism when the new codex arrived. Some sites were dead sure that the knight was never going to be picked over 2 wraithlords, due to its reduced firepower and increased price. I wish these predictions remained true, I much prefer my opponent's wraith units to be the non-jumping variety :(

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

The WS never had the toughness of a Land Raider

The wave serpent is less durable than a landraider and is therefore a poor, weak vehicle!

Way to strawman.

I point out why it's inaccurate to say "a WS is as tough as a Land Raider" and that's all you've got as counter-argument ?

I prefer my Wraith units the way I prefer my spiders - the non jumpy sort!


Yeah, I really wish Morgoth would just quit posting. So many threads derailed by an unwillingness to admit something he A) either knows is true and is unwilling to admit, or B) is so blinded by the fact that Eldar is his first last and only army that he's never actually been able to comprehend how the army works in relation to the rest of the game. EIther way, we don't need to hear a one sided point of view about how Wave Serpents perform in every single thread he clicks on.

Also, Morgoth - when you a trying to tutor Ailaros on how overrated Wave Serpents are, there is no "we". This is just you sayin it. In every thread. Over and over. Excuse yourself from the debate as you are emotionally involved on a personal level and your bias strongly clouds the opinions you put forth.

1) Autocannons. Now, I don't know if this is just unfortunate luck on my part, but mine just never seem to do anything. All they do is bounce off MCs or bounce off light transports.

2-3... I'll get back to you.

morgoth wrote:

Way to strawman.

I point out why it's inaccurate to say "a WS is as tough as a Land Raider" and that's all you've got as counter-argument ?

To be fair, there was a reasonable counter-argument above. Yes, a Wave Serpent can be hurt by more weapons - but it can also jink hits from strong and weak weapons alike, as well as having a shield that reduces any penetrate to a glance on a 2+.

Land Raiders can claim neither of those defences.

Obviously it depends on the situation and exactly what weapons are being used against them, but I certainly don't think it's unreasonable for someone to say that a Wave Serpent has comparable durability to a Land Raider.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Regarding eldar, I would say that the wraithknight received a lot misplaced criticism when the new codex arrived. Some sites were dead sure that the knight was never going to be picked over 2 wraithlords, due to its reduced firepower and increased price. I wish these predictions remained true, I much prefer my opponent's wraith units to be the non-jumping variety :(

I love how the Eldar apparently thought to themselves "Well, Wraithlords are good, but how can we make them faster?", to which one responded "I have an idea - we'll double the size of a Wraithlord and therefore double its speed too. That's how physics works, right?"

morgoth wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

The WS never had the toughness of a Land Raider

The wave serpent is less durable than a landraider and is therefore a poor, weak vehicle!

Way to strawman.

I point out why it's inaccurate to say "a WS is as tough as a Land Raider" and that's all you've got as counter-argument ?

I'm not arguing with you morgoth. You are right. You have always been right. About everything. Including your 'underpowered' tournament winning army and everything about warhammer ever.
Everone else, on the internet or otherwise, even if they have more experience with eldar or warhammer as a whole, is of course wrong.
You are a paragon of integrity. Your care for the balance of the game by wishing to help the poor eldar faction is heart warming.

On the real topic, I don't think waveserpents are misunderstood by the internet. They are universally regarded as one of, if not the best transports in the game, They are ridiculously durable, have high damage output and are widely available.

The only differences in opinions over serpents is to the extent of their power - from seriously competitive up to overpowered.

@Vaktahi - You know better at this point. He's just as likely to have come out with the opposite argument had the conversation started with Tksons instead of the 'Drake. lol Plus he seems to play in a very ... odd ... meta. In my mind Ailaros has become the poster boy for the age old argument of "Your army/unit/codex is fine. Because Tactics."

These might just be situational to my meta but here we go:

Underated - Stormraven used as a transport

It wasn't that long ago that the internet would have had you believing that Stormravens were falling from the sky like rain drops and that one sideways glance from a Tau commander or Coteaz behind a Quad gun would have them exploding like a no-named Transformer in a Michael Bay film. I just never found that to be true. I play in a very tough meta and I've had quite a bit of luck with blitzing in a Storm Raven to deposit a Blendernaught and some DC, or some TH/SH Terminators onto a particular piece of real estate while also being able to provide decent fire support. Using this with the Stormwing formation (I think that's the name - its the formation w/1 raven and 2 talons) makes them even more viable. Still a risk yes, but it seems to work a lot more than the 'net would have you believe.


Underated - Raptors

Oh yeah, I went there (hey, at least I didn't say "Warp Talons"). Admittedly, the fact that they're in a slot with Nurgle Bikers, the 'Drake and Spawn doesn't help their case, but in an army devoid of drop pods, I've found they can be a pretty useful surprise. Again, like Stormraven entry above, I'm not claiming they're "ZOMG AMAZING" or anythign crazy, but if the idea is "under-rated" then I think they fit the bill quite well.

Over-rated - Riptides

Yeah, they're big and scary and tough to kill. I've found though, that their damage output isn't as bad as you expect and they can generally be avoided/ignored a lot of the time.

Tycho wrote:
Over-rated - Riptides

Yeah, they're big and scary and tough to kill. I've found though, that their damage output isn't as bad as you expect and they can generally be avoided/ignored a lot of the time.

This. I mean, yeah, they're dangerous as feth and can put out a beatdown, but I'd prioritize fire to Broadsides first, then Crisis Suits... hell, maybe even Fire Warriors. If I can't guarantee some reasonable damage to a Riptide, I probably will use it on something I can.

Just because it doesn't have the highest damage output in the army is not why it's OP, it's the ridiculous price attached to it and the fact that there is almost no reason not to include 3 of the very best MC at the <200 pt price range. And while his damage output might not be comparable to some other Tau units (ones that almost fall into the category of glass cannon as well), it's funny, because EVEN the HBC riptide outshoots EVERY SINGLE OTHER MC AT <200 PTS. To say nothing of Ion Cannon, and the fact that it is the most durable model in the army. And for the price tag, arguably the game. It's easy to forget WHY the Riptide is overpowered in a game full of Lords of War, Knights, Gargants, Superheavies and other nonsense such as the WK. It's ridiculously underpriced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Tycho wrote:
Over-rated - Riptides

Yeah, they're big and scary and tough to kill. I've found though, that their damage output isn't as bad as you expect and they can generally be avoided/ignored a lot of the time.

This. I mean, yeah, they're dangerous as feth and can put out a beatdown, but I'd prioritize fire to Broadsides first, then Crisis Suits... hell, maybe even Fire Warriors. If I can't guarantee some reasonable damage to a Riptide, I probably will use it on something I can.

As would I. As would any sensible player, you are forced to leave Riptides for last, their durability makes it so when you shoot them it actually hurts you more than shooting something else, the amount of firepower they can soak up. And to act like they can't dish out a lot is crazy as well, very few units in the game at that points cost can deal that much damage at optimal situations, not mentioning Riptides durability, speed and range advantage over most of them.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

On the real topic, I don't think waveserpents are misunderstood by the internet. They are universally regarded as one of, if not the best transports in the game,

What exactly are they transporting that matters? At best they become Objective Secured (which makes the list of "rules overrated by the internet) by carrying some worthless Troop unit.

Since the answer is "nothing". Mentioning that it's a transport adds nothing.

Maybe you meant Dedicated Transport. If then, maybe you'd at least have a point in that it can be taken out of every FOC slot, while other army' units that are equivalent come out of Heavy Support or Fast Attack. Even then, that doesn't mean there's necessarily more of them than those things, for example Leman Russes come 15 to a FOC and are cheaper (since they don't require some garbage unit to unlock them that will contribute absolutely nothing).

Ailaros wrote:
I've never seen a wave serpent lost to krak grenades either.

The people in your meta that play Marines aren't very good then.

Ailaros wrote:
Neither have I seen land raiders jink a meltagun or shield away a lascannon hit.

Good thing lascannons damage Land Raiders on a 3+ and melta guns on a 4+, oh wait. That isn't how things actually work.

In related news, Land Raiders blow. Notice the lack of anyone in this thread defending their reputation as garbage-water?

In summation, Wave Serpents are adequate. Comparing them to units everyone agrees sucks is a waste of time. Playing against bad opponents doesn't make something better than it objectively is.

I'm done with this thread now. Go back to your world where everything the internet says is gospel.

Then don't take the garbage Eldar units? Nobody is saying you have to take Howling Banshees for your Wave Serpents.

Yeah, you can take a lot of Russ tanks, but then they're all Squadroned, and they're *far* less effective when employed in that manner than as individual units. Their slow speed (especially coupled with Squadron restrictions) greatly limits much of the utility of numbers too when it comes to taking objectives, securing firing lanes, redeploying to engage (or retreat from) a new threat, etc.

The issue with the wave serpent is that it can claim objectives, put out as much firepower as a Leman Russ tank (and land more of it more accurately in many cases), zip around wherever the hell it wants, can gain a 3+ jink in the open at will (and still land a decent number of shots), has incredible range, and can deliver troops if they're needed. It does practically everything and does it well.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

In summation, Wave Serpents are adequate. Comparing them to units everyone agrees sucks is a waste of time. Playing against bad opponents doesn't make something better than it objectively is.

You can't really say they are merely adequate when WS spam lists are in the top 3 if not first in 90% of the tournament scene. Thats not the internet talking, thats reality. The fact that its a dedicated transport DOES matter, IMO, for 2 reasons: 1)Obsec plus its speed means it can objective steal and 2) I cant think of any other army that has a DT that is anywhere close to as powerful as it is in terms of both survivability and firepower. It *should* be the eldar equivalent of a rhino. Instead, it is a rhino PLUS main battle tank. Even with the min troop tax added to its cost its still ~50 points too cheap.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Then don't take the garbage Eldar units? Nobody is saying you have to take Howling Banshees for your Wave Serpents.

Yeah, you can take a lot of Russ tanks, but then they're all Squadroned, and they're *far* less effective when employed in that manner than as individual units. Their slow speed (especially coupled with Squadron restrictions) greatly limits much of the utility of numbers too when it comes to taking objectives, securing firing lanes, redeploying to engage (or retreat from) a new threat, etc.

The issue with the wave serpent is that it can claim objectives, put out as much firepower as a Leman Russ tank (and land more of it more accurately in many cases), zip around wherever the hell it wants, can gain a 3+ jink in the open at will (and still land a decent number of shots), has incredible range, and can deliver troops if they're needed. It does practically everything and does it well.

Watch it, someone's going to throw out a "schroedinger's wave serpent" here with that sort of talk...

The main problem is that it can CHOOSE to do any of the above depending on the circumstances, which is almost as good as being able to do all of that at once (since, obviously, it won't NEED to do all of those things in a given turn... plus there will be 3-4 other Wave Serpents in a proper cheese list to make up for any lost firepower).