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 Kavish wrote:
1. Overrated: objective secured. Who gives a damn about that when your enemy is dead?

It's not a unit. But it's definitely overrated.

Well considering Objective Secured is Free, you can't say it's not worth it's points.

 adamsouza wrote:
Well considering Objective Secured is Free, you can't say it's not worth it's points.

No, but you can say that, in most instances, it isn't worth the opportunity cost of not using Unbound.

If you see what I mean.

 vipoid wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Well considering Objective Secured is Free, you can't say it's not worth it's points.

No, but you can say that, in most instances, it isn't worth the opportunity cost of not using Unbound.

If you see what I mean.

That is the equivalent of saying waiting in line to pay isn't worth the opportunity cost of cost of just cutting to the head of the line. Sure you could both, but one of them is probably going to piss off people.

Seriously though, your ability to play unbound in any particular game is usually an agreed upon condition before the game. It's not like anyone seriously weighs the strength of objective secured verses being able to pack as many uber units in a list as points allows .

Better said that it's not worth building around or making cuts elsewhere for ObSec

 adamsouza wrote:

That is the equivalent of saying waiting in line to pay isn't worth the opportunity cost of cost of just cutting to the head of the line. Sure you could both, but one of them is probably going to piss off people.

Not sure about that analogy.

 adamsouza wrote:

Seriously though, your ability to play unbound in any particular game is usually an agreed upon condition before the game. It's not like anyone seriously weighs the strength of objective secured verses being able to pack as many uber units in a list as points allows .

You're right, people don't. But, that's only because Objective Secured is such a pathetic bonus (compared to Unbound).

If there was a more meaningful bonus for sticking to the FoC, then there might actually be something to weigh.

 vipoid wrote:

You're right, people don't. But, that's only because Objective Secured is such a pathetic bonus (compared to Unbound).

If there was a more meaningful bonus for sticking to the FoC, then there might actually be something to weigh.

There is, battle forged gives you rerollable warlord traits, which seem to be one of the most underrated things right now.

morgoth wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

You're right, people don't. But, that's only because Objective Secured is such a pathetic bonus (compared to Unbound).

If there was a more meaningful bonus for sticking to the FoC, then there might actually be something to weigh.

There is, battle forged gives you rerollable warlord traits, which seem to be one of the most underrated things right now.

Not always true. A battleforged army made up entirely of formations likely will not have that command benefit, and not every detachment is required to have that rule - it is not a necessary part of a detachments construction

nosferatu1001 wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

You're right, people don't. But, that's only because Objective Secured is such a pathetic bonus (compared to Unbound).

If there was a more meaningful bonus for sticking to the FoC, then there might actually be something to weigh.

There is, battle forged gives you rerollable warlord traits, which seem to be one of the most underrated things right now.

Not always true. A battleforged army made up entirely of formations likely will not have that command benefit, and not every detachment is required to have that rule - it is not a necessary part of a detachments construction

Not always true indeed, but in the case of FoC / CAD, it's a sensible bonus.

That being said, many armies lose a ton by sticking to the CAD, so unless you have 2 rerollable traits... and maybe even then.

morgoth wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

You're right, people don't. But, that's only because Objective Secured is such a pathetic bonus (compared to Unbound).

If there was a more meaningful bonus for sticking to the FoC, then there might actually be something to weigh.

There is, battle forged gives you rerollable warlord traits, which seem to be one of the most underrated things right now.

I agree, it depends on the army, of course, but I found it very useful for my CSM. I hated getting Fear (result 5) against Space Marines, or getting Preferred Enemy (SM) against the rest of armies (result 1), and I don't really dig the 6th result (not bad, but quite circumstantial).

 obleeke wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

You're right, people don't. But, that's only because Objective Secured is such a pathetic bonus (compared to Unbound).

If there was a more meaningful bonus for sticking to the FoC, then there might actually be something to weigh.

There is, battle forged gives you rerollable warlord traits, which seem to be one of the most underrated things right now.

I agree, it depends on the army, of course, but I found it very useful for my CSM. I hated getting Fear (result 5) against Space Marines, or getting Preferred Enemy (SM) against the rest of armies (result 1), and I don't really dig the 6th result (not bad, but quite circumstantial).

I was more thinking about Lord Castellan Creed or some Ork with da finkin cap.

2 Rerollable Strategy traits. Now that means you either have Conqueror of Cities or Master of ambush, both of which can make a huge difference.

And there are other traits that make a huge difference on some armies, like "Divide to Conquer" against DS armies, Night Attacker against a shooting army (that is not blacksun filter feth you army) or "Strategic Genius" if you're the DeepStriker.

morgoth wrote:

2 Rerollable Strategy traits. Now that means you either have Conqueror of Cities or Master of ambush, both of which can make a huge difference.

Or neither, if you're unlucky with dice.

1. The Almighty and All Powerful Riptide - Never actually manages to do much. It's easy to get caught up in Riptide mania, WOWWW 2 PLUS ARMOUR, 5 WOUNDS MONSTROUS CREATURE AP2 BLAST INVUN SAVES, etc. I went through this too, I was playing 2 at 1500 pts, which I don't think is cheese, I would never go 3 though. But two games i've used them in highlight their actual usefulness perfectly. In one game, against Eldar, with them I managed to blast a few Jetbikers before they could move and claim Jink (6th ed), killed a Wave Serpent in assault, and that was probably it. That was with 2 Riptides. The other day was a doubles game, I had one Riptide this time. The first two times I fired it, it scattered wildly both times. The third, I killed the majority of a Tactical Marine unit. The problem with the Riptide is that, to be reliable, it needs a lot of markerlights helping it out. And even when the markerlights are there, a lot of the time an AP2 Large Blast S8/S9 is simply overkill ! I don't face a lot of units with 2+ saves, my group seems to have gone the way of 3+ saves, Tyranid MC's, Marines, Necron Destroyers, etc (this might be a widespread thing now, due to the proliferation of AP2 weaponry) . To make it worth the points, that Ap2 large blast needs to come down on some powerful unit which needs to die. Most of the time, those killer units don't exist, OR there is another factor that prevents the Riptide from being useful. And I end up wasting a lot of markerlights which could be used more effectively on other units. The Riptide with it's blast can only score one wound on each model under the blast template, whereas a Broadside or Fire Warrior unit can score loads of S5+ hits, and I prefer to use markerlights on these units, so they can wear down tough units a lot more effectively.

2. The Humble Fire Warrior - I read quite a bit of Tau tactica on these forums (for advice on my own competitive army), but I don't think the value of these little guys is emphasized enough. In my list, I run two full units (one with Fireblade) in Devilfishes. They have been fantastic for me. No other army has the equivalent of the Pulse Rifle (on their main troop choice), which is just amazing. S5, makes scything through weaker units much easier, and allows FW units to threaten much stronger units, MC's look out, the Fire Warriors are here. The range of the Pulse Rifle is 30 inches, which means FW's are rapid firing at units 15 inches away. Even better. And what other armies have units like the Fireblade or Ethereal, which can make those 24 shots become 36 (or even more if you combine both HQ !). And all that is without mention of the Markerlight ! That amount of shots could easily do well on it's own despite BS3, but with Markerlights, these Fire Warriors are just....wow. A small mention for the Devilfish too, they are of paramount importance for getting your Fire Warriors around safely. Their survivability has shot up, 7th ed making it harder to blow them up, plus improved jink, has meant my Devilfishes have performed beyond my expectations.

3. Stealth Team - In my opinion, another underrated unit. Nobody directs large amounts of firepower towards them, thinking them a small threat. The way I have kitted them out, they can perform multiple tasks. Their basic purpose is a producer of markerlights, but with a Homing Beacon, Burst Cannons, and a Fusion Blaster, they can perform several roles. They are always underestimated, even by me in some cases. In a game against Necrons, my opponent got their Annihilation Barge too close in order to shoot a Devilfish, and my Fusion Blaster proceeded to penetrate the rear armour and blow it up. The FB was something I originally stuck on the model because i had never tried the Stealth Team, and when I started playing more competitively with them, I wished I didn't have to pay the points for it. But now, i'm glad it's there. Like the unit itself, the one FB is underestimated and forgotten about, until it then proceeds to blow something up making my opponent wish they hadn't. Their 2+ saves in cover infuriates opponents who just see them as an small easily killed unit, and their assault jump means you can help ensure they are in cover once done with shooting. In a game against Eldar, my Stealth Team was an invaluable source of markerlights, they had a perfect view on a large portion of my opponents army, and they constantly jumped behind LOS blocking terrain after shooting to prevent their death. My opponent never considered them a threat, so didn't bother dealing with them properly, and for this reason I will continue to use them. Like the Fire Warriors, Stealth Teams are always forgotten about, my opponent preferring to shoot at something else. And I will continue to make them regret it