Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I was playing a game with a friend and this question arose. He was using a Chaos lord with a great weapon, so always strikes last, but then he had something that gave him always strikes first. So they cancel out, but then I play ogres and had a thundertusk near his lord so numbing chill gave his lord then always strikes last again and he was against my tyrant which had sword of striking. So my question is would he still have always strikes last because he has 2 instances of something causing it and only 1 instance of causing always strikes first, I tried to find this out and read through the rule book and only found out that always strikes first and always strikes last counteract each other, but I am not sure if that is a 1:1 ratio.

The same special rule doesn't stack afaik, so he would still strike at initiative.

That's what we went with. I just started and he is getting back in after quite a while of not playing, so we weren't sure and just let it go.

Yeah. Asf and asl don't remove either of them. So you still have them. You just don't get the effects.

Yep. One ASL negates any number of ASF's... and vice versa.

Just to piggy back on this.

if you have ASF & ASL if you come across someone with either do you always strike at the same time? or would you strike at your initiative?

cammy wrote:
Just to piggy back on this.

if you have ASF & ASL if you come across someone with either do you always strike at the same time? or would you strike at your initiative?

Initiative.
So if you fight someone with ASF they would go first, and if they had ASL they would go last. If they also had both, the higher Initiative would go first.

Does the person get the rerolls if their initiative is higher still?

 Lord Commissar wrote:
Does the person get the rerolls if their initiative is higher still?

Not if their ASF has been cancelled.

It's been a while since I encountered the rule, but off the hip, I'm going to have to disagree with grendel083.
ASF and ASL ignore Initiative. So you wouldn't suddenly go back to Initiative, if two models have the same rule. You strike simultaneously.

Warpsolution wrote:
It's been a while since I encountered the rule, but off the hip, I'm going to have to disagree with grendel083.
ASF and ASL ignore Initiative. So you wouldn't suddenly go back to Initiative, if two models have the same rule. You strike simultaneously.

If you have ASF and ASL. And you fight someone with ASF, they go first, but lose rerolls. And then you strike at initiative.


Unrelated note. This came up in a game a friend played yesterday, and in all honesty, I don't experience it enough to know. An asf Vampire lord fought a unit of high elves. The high elves target the unit. Do they have rerolls, or does the Vampire Lord deny them?

Warpsolution wrote:
It's been a while since I encountered the rule, but off the hip, I'm going to have to disagree with grendel083.
ASF and ASL ignore Initiative. So you wouldn't suddenly go back to Initiative, if two models have the same rule. You strike simultaneously.

In the current rules, yes. In past editions, there was NO simultaneous combat, but 8th does have it. If models on opposing sides both have ASF or ASL, the go at the same time.

Warpsolution wrote:
It's been a while since I encountered the rule, but off the hip, I'm going to have to disagree with grendel083.
ASF and ASL ignore Initiative. So you wouldn't suddenly go back to Initiative, if two models have the same rule. You strike simultaneously.

Actually, you are both right, but only because you did not understand grendel083's post. He said that if BOTH MODELS had BOTH RULES then they would strike at initiative order which is correct

 thedarkavenger wrote:


Unrelated note. This came up in a game a friend played yesterday, and in all honesty, I don't experience it enough to know. An asf Vampire lord fought a unit of high elves. The high elves target the unit. Do they have rerolls, or does the Vampire Lord deny them?

Wow great question. I would say yes, they get the rerolls.

Rx8Speed wrote:
Actually, you are both right, but only because you did not understand grendel083's post. He said that if BOTH MODELS had BOTH RULES then they would strike at initiative order which is correct

That makes sense, sure.

 grendel083 wrote:
So if you fight someone with ASF they would go first, and if they had ASL they would go last. If they also had both, the higher Initiative would go first.

Too many ambiguous pronouns. I assumed the initial "you" didn't have either of these special rules, and that the first sentence was establishing a baseline.

So, to lay it all out there, once and for all:

ASF vs Initiative-- ASF swings first
ASL vs Initiative-- Initiative swings first

ASF vs ASF-- simultaneous
ASL vs ASL-- simultaneous

ASF vs ASL-- ASF swings first
ASF & ASL vs ASF-- ASF swings first

ASF & ASL vs ASL-- ASF & ASL swings first

ASF & ASL vs Initiative-- highest Initiative swings first
ASF & ASL vs ASF & ASL-- highest Initiative swings first


...I think that covers all possible pair-ups.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
And you fight someone with ASF, they go first, but lose rerolls.

EDIT:
Well, this is embarrassing. The second after I posted I saw that you said that an ASF unit fighting an ASF + ASL unit would lose rerolls. That I agree with. However, I'm still curious about people's opinions on my post - do you think that ASF + ASL lose rerolls? If so, why?

I don't understand - why do you lose rerolls?

ASF has two parts to it.
1. Always strikes first
2. If your unit's I is equal to or higher than the I of the enemy unit, you get rerolls on all misses.

Now, when you stack ASF and ASL, the first part of the rule is modified, but the second should still be in effect. In other words, ASF + ASL should look like this:
1. Strikes according to initiative
2. If your unit's I is equal to or higher than the I of the enemy unit, you get rerolls on all misses.

The only two times you should lose rerolls (in my opinion) is when you either lose the ability altogether (I'm a fairly new player so I don't know all the ins and outs of the game yet, but if there's a spell or something that makes a unit lose ASF, then that unit would lose all benefits associated with ASF). Or, when you fight another unit which also has ASF.
It doesn't make sense to me that ASF + ASL means that a unit loses rerolls, simply because ASF is till in play, and there is no requirement that a unit actually strikes first to get the rerolls.

So - why do you think that units lose rerolls?

Always Strikes Last has your answer. The two rules cancel out, therefore you can't use the benefits from Always Strikes First, aka the re-roll.

Davall wrote:
Always Strikes Last has your answer. The two rules cancel out, therefore you can't use the benefits from Always Strikes First, aka the re-roll.

Ah! And to think the answer was right beneath the rule I read like five times earlier today. In that case I will play as the rules say, but I still don't think it makes sense that ASL cancels rerolls, tbh.

Announcement wrote:


Ah! And to think the answer was right beneath the rule I read like five times earlier today. In that case I will play as the rules say, but I still don't think it makes sense that ASL cancels rerolls, tbh.

I would think since the reroll is part of the ASF based on conditions, they are not 2 independent rules, that it makes sense to lose the reroll.

If ASF is fighting ASF+ASL then the ASF gets his re-rolls. As ASF states that the loss of re-rolls is only if the opponent is higher initiative, or if the person has ASF they go simultaneously and lose re-rolls. If you have ASF+ASL you are going at initiative and cannot be going simultaneously with your ASF combatant.

It absolutely makes sense that Always Strikes Last denies the re-rolls granted from Always Strikes First!

A model has Always Strikes First. The model then gains Always Strikes Last. As per the rules, they cancel out. The model effectively has neither rule, now. With the sub-clause that they cannot benefit from further applications of either.

And as for whether or not it "makes sense", it doesn't make sense that Always Strikes First grants re-rolls in the first place.

Regrettably, 'making sense' is not a great argument for rules. It doesn't make sense that standard bearers armed with great weapons still get to use those weapons, despite needing at least one hand to keep the flag up.

I think there's something to be said about a rules system simulating reality; it's more satisfying to play a game that does versus one that doesn't.
That's assuming they're equally easy to play, of course. Dungeons and Dragons has a much more realistic combat simulator...but if you tried to apply those rules to a game like Warhammer, no one would play, 'cause it would take three hours just to roll Initiative.

The re-rolls 8th edition brought with ASF were obviously an attempt to make up for the presence of stepping up. In 7th edition, ASF ruled the house. They just wanted to make this new incarnation similar in potency.
Though, honestly, if everything with ASF saw a point-drop, and the rule simply stated "You go first!"...I'd be more than okay with that.

I'd argue saying D&D has a more realistic combat simulator; it doesn't matter HOW good you are one solid hit through your armor ends your fight in reality.

It does a semi-respectable job simulating the combat of an action fantasy novel though.

That's not what Hit Points are in games like D&D at all.

Dungeons & Dragons: Player's Handbook Core Rulebook 1, v3.5" p.145 Injury and Death
"What Hit Points Represent: Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one."

--a level 5 Fighter gets hit with an ax (9 damage). He rolls with it, and the blow leaves a bloody gash in his shoulder.
--a level 1 Commoner gets hit with an ax (9 damage). He stands there, terrified and untrained, and the ax bites into his neck, killing him.

Heh. Sorry. Just bugs me, because no one seems to remember that part. Anyway, my point was that Warhammer is a large-scale game, so it's got to skip on a lot of the details.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Regrettably, 'making sense' is not a great argument for rules. It doesn't make sense that standard bearers armed with great weapons still get to use those weapons, despite needing at least one hand to keep the flag up.

Maybe they hold the flag in two hands and whack people with it?

(But then a magical flag should grant magical hits as well ...

You plant the standard in place when engaging in close combat. Only an idiot would try to fight with a banner in hand to hamper them.

 Vulcan wrote:
You plant the standard in place when engaging in close combat. Only an idiot would try to fight with a banner in hand to hamper them.

Which is why standard bearers are subject to "the Last Stand": they don't move from the standard even as their battleline is pushed back and breaks.


Re: ASF vs. ASF+ASL: when a model has both rules they "cancel out and neither applies," and thus strikes at initiative (BRB p.66). So long as the model with ASF has higher initiative he strikes first with rerolls.

It should be noted that a model with ASL still cancels out rerolls if his initiative is higher. So even if a WOC demon prince in contact with a frost phoenix will still deny the rerolls of an elf unit attacking him.

Bran Dawri wrote:


(But then a magical flag should grant magical hits as well ...

If you are allowed to make any attacks with a magic banner they are indeed magical.

The Dragonhide Banner is an example, it grants a Str3 breath weapon to the bearer. And because its made with a magic item it is magical.