Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Angelic wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
Also your claim that they would have written first turn or player turn is complete bull-

First of all: they did write first turn, wtf are you smoking?
Second of all no they wouldnt have written anything specific because whenever turn is mentioned it is assumed to be player turn unless it specifically states game turn.

If you could try and keep the debate polite? There's no need for insults, it does little to help your cause.

So in a sentence refering to a turn, why use the word "Game" when they intended "Player"?
Simple answer, "Player" was not the the intention.

Also i try to be the most polite i can be, but when people start twisting rules so their point makes more sense just ticks me off..

does the rule specifically refer to a game turn?

no it does not. just by having turn and game in the same sentence is not the same as specifically refering to game turn.

because player turn doesnt need specificity and game turn does,

first turn of the game = player turn
first game turn = game turn

thats how specificity works....

Addressing your previous reply, though you haven't responded to my subsequent one:

So, "game turn" = game (adjective) turn (noun)
And, "turn of the game" = of the game (prepositional phrase, adjective) turn (noun)

What is the difference? Because grammatically, I don't see one. Stylistically, sure. That is not what the rules require though. It is a specific referral.

the difference is that the rules call for game turns to be specifically refered to as game turns, player turns however are all references to turns.

so game turns = a specific reference to a game turn
turn of the game = a player turn of the game because its not specifically a game turn.

 M0ff3l wrote:
turn of the game is not specifically game turn.

So you claim, but it's certainlt not Player turn.
That would be "Turn" or "Player Turn" with no mention of "Game".

 grendel083 wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
turn of the game is not specifically game turn.

So you claim, but it's certainlt not Player turn.
That would be "Turn" or "Player Turn" with no mention of "Game".

any turn that is not specifically refered to as "GAME TURN" is a player turn. ITS RIGHT THERE IN THE RULES

 M0ff3l wrote:

so game turns = a specific reference to a game turn
turn of the game = a player turn of the game because its not specifically a game turn.

You still haven't answered my question.

Linguistically "game turn" = "turn of the game". Is your position that because the adjective comes after the noun instead of prior to it, it does not "specifically refer"?

 M0ff3l wrote:
any turn that is not specifically refered to as "GAME TURN" is a player turn. ITS RIGHT THERE IN THE RULES

False, the rule says no such thing.

"Whenever a rule refers to 'a turn' it always means 'player turn' unless it specifically refers to a 'game turn'."

It must refer to "a turn" to be considered a "Player Turn".

"First turn of the game" does not say "First turn".

You said earlier you don't like people twisting a rule to make a point. You've done just that here. you're leaving out words that don't suit you.

 grendel083 wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
any turn that is not specifically refered to as "GAME TURN" is a player turn. ITS RIGHT THERE IN THE RULES

False, the rule says no such thing.

"Whenever a rule refers to 'a turn' it always means 'player turn' unless it specifically refers to a 'game turn'."

It must refer to "a turn" to be considered a "Player Turn".

"First turn of the game" does not say "First turn".

You said earlier you don't like people twisting a rule to make a point. You've done just that here. you're leaving out words that don't suit you.

Im not twisting this rule, youre just not understanding it.

Whenever a rule refers to a turn. be it first turn, last turn, third turn, turn of the game. those are player turns. unless it specficially refers to a GAME TURN.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Angelic wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:

so game turns = a specific reference to a game turn
turn of the game = a player turn of the game because its not specifically a game turn.

You still haven't answered my question.

Linguistically "game turn" = "turn of the game". Is your position that because the adjective comes after the noun instead of prior to it, it does not "specifically refer"?

yeah cool story dude, getting into a linguistics arguement with someone who doesnt natively speak english. now please post stuff that goes toward the question of the OP and if you like to linguistically challange me do so through PMs, which if youre gonna i wont answer.

 M0ff3l wrote:
yeah cool story dude, getting into a linguistics arguement with someone who doesnt natively speak english. now please post stuff that goes toward the question of the OP and if you like to linguistically challange me do so through PMs, which if youre gonna i wont answer.

It's a very important point, and one that shows gramatically that "Turn of a Game" and "Game Turn" is the same.
So yes, it is a cool story.

 M0ff3l wrote:

yeah cool story dude, getting into a linguistics arguement with someone who doesnt natively speak english. now please post stuff that goes toward the question of the OP and if you like to linguistically challange me do so through PMs, which if youre gonna i wont answer.

...?

Genuinely confused on how to respond to this.

 grendel083 wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
yeah cool story dude, getting into a linguistics arguement with someone who doesnt natively speak english. now please post stuff that goes toward the question of the OP and if you like to linguistically challange me do so through PMs, which if youre gonna i wont answer.

It's a very important point, and one that shows gramatically that "Turn of a Game" and "Game Turn" is the same.
So yes, it is a cool story.

grammatically yes,

but in the rules it says: specifically refer to as GAME TURN

not TURN OF THE GAME or anything else. If it doesnt say GAME TURN its player turn.

all turns are of the game, but not all of them are game turns, dont you get that?

 M0ff3l wrote:
grammatically yes

That's all that's needed.
So "Game Turn" and "Turn of the Game" are the same. So the sentence does infact specifically refer to Game Turn. Words matter.

 M0ff3l wrote:

If it doesnt say GAME TURN its player turn.

Since you aren't a native speaker, I'll tell you, that is not what the rule says.

But I do see that your argument is indeed that position of the adjective is what matters. Btw, you were the one that brought up adjective usage.

 M0ff3l wrote:


all turns are of the game, but not all of them are game turns, dont you get that?

Actually, they are.

Angelic wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:

If it doesnt say GAME TURN its player turn.

Since you aren't a native speaker, I'll tell you, that is not what the rule says.

But I do see that your argument is indeed that position of the adjective is what matters. Btw, you were the one that brought up adjective usage.

 M0ff3l wrote:


all turns are of the game, but not all of them are game turns, dont you get that?

Actually, they are.

a player turn is not a game turn, its half of a game turn. if you cant even grasp that then wtf are you doing in this discussion?

 M0ff3l wrote:
a player turn is not a game turn, its half of a game turn. if you cant even grasp that then wtf are you doing in this discussion?

Again, try and stay polite.

"Game Turn" and "Turn of the Game" mean exactly the same thing.

So by saying "First turn of the game" it is specifically refering to the "First Game Turn".

You've even addmited that you're aware of this. Grammer in sentances matter.

 grendel083 wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
a player turn is not a game turn, its half of a game turn. if you cant even grasp that then wtf are you doing in this discussion?

Again, try and stay polite.

"Game Turn" and "Turn of the Game" mean exactly the same thing.

So by saying "First turn of the game" it is specifically refering to the "First Game Turn".

You've even addmited that you're aware of this. Grammer in sentances matter.

the first player turn of the game, is a turn of the game but its not a game turn.

HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT?!

 M0ff3l wrote:


a player turn is not a game turn, its half of a game turn. if you cant even grasp that then wtf are you doing in this discussion?

That's not what you said previously.

Given your attitude, anything more would be fruitless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 M0ff3l wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
a player turn is not a game turn, its half of a game turn. if you cant even grasp that then wtf are you doing in this discussion?

Again, try and stay polite.

"Game Turn" and "Turn of the Game" mean exactly the same thing.

So by saying "First turn of the game" it is specifically refering to the "First Game Turn".

You've even addmited that you're aware of this. Grammer in sentances matter.

the first player turn of the game, is a turn of the game but its not a game turn.

HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT?!

The problem is that you've included "player" to differentiate the two. Something which is not present in the actual rule. Also, it is "part" of a "turn of the game", not the entirety of it.

 M0ff3l wrote:
the first player turn of the game, is a {player} turn of the game but its not a game turn.

HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT?!

Correct, but this rule refers to a Game turn. There is no mention of "First player turn of the game", you've added that word.

 grendel083 wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
the first player turn of the game, is a {player} turn of the game but its not a game turn.

HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT?!

Correct, but this rule refers to a Game turn. There is no mention of "First player turn of the game", you've added that word.

yes there is as the rules tell you to basically substitute the word turn with player turn except when they specificially refer to a game turn. turn of the game is not a specific referal to game turn.

Indeed, I lost any interest after the third insult. They're not a native speaker, but arguing with those that are, and ignoring the actual language....

 M0ff3l wrote:
turn of the game is not a specific referal to game turn.

Yes it is.
You've even admited that grammatically they are the same thing.

 M0ff3l wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
a player turn is not a game turn, its half of a game turn. if you cant even grasp that then wtf are you doing in this discussion?

Again, try and stay polite.

"Game Turn" and "Turn of the Game" mean exactly the same thing.

So by saying "First turn of the game" it is specifically refering to the "First Game Turn".

You've even addmited that you're aware of this. Grammer in sentances matter.

the first player turn of the game, is a turn of the game but its not a game turn.

HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT?!

Because its not the first turn of the game. It's the first turn of the player. The first turn of the game comprises the first two player's turns. You're still trying to read it as "... the first player's turn of the game" when it does not say that.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
turn of the game is not a specific referal to game turn.

Yes it is.
You've even admited that grammatically they are the same thing.

do you work for GW? do you know how if they meant first turn.... of the game as in player turn or first game turn? no you dont, so this thread is going nowhere as i wont budge from my point that if the rule doesnt specficially refer, note SPECFICIALLY, game turn then it does not mean game turn.

any variation of turn of the game yatayata that means game turn, does not specfically refer to it as a game turn so rules wise it does not mean game turn.

Also i dont appreciate being discriminated against for not speaking english natively, are you suggesting that only native english speakers are allowed on the YMDC section of this forum?

 M0ff3l wrote:
do you work for GW? do you know how if they meant first turn.... of the game as in player turn or first game turn? no you dont

Yes, I do.

Becasue they used the term "Turn of the Game", which as you've admitted to knowing, is another way of saying "Game Turn".

So there is your specific reference to Game Turn.

 grendel083 wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
do you work for GW? do you know how if they meant first turn.... of the game as in player turn or first game turn? no you dont

Yes, I do.

Becasue they used the term "Turn of the Game", which as you've admitted to knowing, is another way of saying "Game Turn".

So there is your specific reference to Game Turn.

when did turn of the game become a specific reference to game turn?

that is not specific at all.

 M0ff3l wrote:
when did turn of the game become a specific reference to game turn?

Since they mean the same thing, always.
Remember how you said you were aware they meant the same thing?

 grendel083 wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
when did turn of the game become a specific reference to game turn?

Since they mean the same thing, always.
Remember how you said you were aware they meant the same thing?

remember when i said that gramatically they did and not rules wise? because you dont seem to remember that, and every fething comment of yours mentions this misquotation of mine

 M0ff3l wrote:
remember when i said that gramatically they did and not rules wise? because you dont seem to remember that, and every fething comment of yours mentions this misquotation of mine

So you're fully aware that "Turn of the Game" means "Game Turn"? Then why has this debate continued?

And what does Gramatically mean? It's what gives meaning to words.

 grendel083 wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
remember when i said that gramatically they did and not rules wise? because you dont seem to remember that, and every fething comment of yours mentions this misquotation of mine

So you're fully aware that "Turn of the Game" means "Game Turn"? Then why has this debate continued?

because from my point of view the rules mean this:

game turn needs to be specifically referenced, player turn does not.

So first turn of the game would have been written as first game turn if that was the intend. Since it is not written that way the intent should be first player turn of the game.

 M0ff3l wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
remember when i said that gramatically they did and not rules wise? because you dont seem to remember that, and every fething comment of yours mentions this misquotation of mine

So you're fully aware that "Turn of the Game" means "Game Turn"? Then why has this debate continued?

because from my point of view the rules mean this:

game turn needs to be specifically referenced, player turn does not.

So first turn of the game would have been written as first game turn if that was the intend. Since it is not written that way the intent should be first player turn of the game.

But you're still fully aware that it is referenced, as that is what the sentence means. You're can't ignore grammer. It quite litterally is what turns a jumble of letters and words into a sentence with meaning.

You're aware of the meaning and choosing to ignore it.
The intent is clear by the meaning of the sentence.

 grendel083 wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
grammatically yes

That's all that matters.

Not really,

I can't tell you how many times a words definition is not how the rules are supposedly to be interpreted.

Example: "(counts as )having remained stationary" vs "has not moved"

In English, having remained stationary is exactly what not having moved means. But does that allow a Vulcan mega bolter on a macharius fire 30 times while moving? Apparently not.

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/567099.page

 grendel083 wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
remember when i said that gramatically they did and not rules wise? because you dont seem to remember that, and every fething comment of yours mentions this misquotation of mine

So you're fully aware that "Turn of the Game" means "Game Turn"? Then why has this debate continued?

because from my point of view the rules mean this:

game turn needs to be specifically referenced, player turn does not.

So first turn of the game would have been written as first game turn if that was the intend. Since it is not written that way the intent should be first player turn of the game.

But you're still fully aware that it is referenced, as that is what the sentence means. You're can't ignore grammer. It quite litterally is what turns a jumble of letters and words into a sentence with meaning.

You're aware of the meaning and choosing to ignore it.
The intent is clear by the meaning of the sentence.

actually i just realized that turn of the game has a possesive meaning, so i retract my statement where i agreed with you on a gramatic level.

turn of the game = its a game's turn
game turn = 2 player turns

we can compare this to turn of his
its his turn
but its not a he turn

see what i mean?