Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:
Shriek is a shooting attack. You are told what the rules are for resolving shooting attacks. At what step are you resolving them?

You use all of the steps that you can. and you resolve the power according to the instructions in its entry.

Rolling to hit is required, but we have no profile to tell us how many shots we have, so either the game breaks or we skip this step and move on to the next one.

That is rolling To Wound on a successful To Hit roll, can't do that either, there was no To Hit roll.

Technically the game breaks as you say. If you skip the step you are technically house ruling as you have made very clear in your own words.

And by the way, my house rule is better than yours. It doe not Easter Egg (by turning Psychic Shriek into a power that autohits and autowounds) and resolves the power as witchfire (which is RAI)

No, skipping the step is not a house rule.

It is needed to move the game along.

Since you have two choices. 1) Stop the game altogether because you are not given any instructions to continue with a witchfire without a profile.

Or 2) Skip the irrelevant to hit roll because you skip the To Wound roll as the power does not roll To Wound and resolve the power according to the instructions in its entry as the rules tell us to do.

Ill pick #2 because that is what the rules tell us to do.

Where exactly in the rules does it say that the roll to hit is irrelevant? Where does it say you can skip the step?

Witchfire MUST roll to hit.

#1 is the only strict RAW option. #2 is your house rule with no rules support.

And by the way, my house rule is better than yours. It doe not Easter Egg (by turning Psychic Shriek into a power that autohits and autowounds) and resolves the power as witchfire (which is RAI)

It is not RaI at all, none of the focussed witchfires work by your made up rules. The RaW and the clear RaI line up here.

So looks like you actually want to talk rules now? If so:

How do you deal with the -1T from Enfeeble cast on a Dreadnaught?

Do you believe the game breaks and requires house rules to resolve? If not why are you treating this differently to the PS roll to hit? 

Do you assign the number 1 to any missing profile value and then resolve using that number? If not why are you treating this differently to the PS roll to hit?

 FlingitNow wrote:

And by the way, my house rule is better than yours. It doe not Easter Egg (by turning Psychic Shriek into a power that autohits and autowounds) and resolves the power as witchfire (which is RAI)

It is not RaI at all, none of the focussed witchfires work by your made up rules. The RaW and the clear RaI line up here.

So looks like you actually want to talk rules now? If so:

How do you deal with the -1T from Enfeeble cast on a Dreadnaught?

Do you believe the game breaks and requires house rules to resolve? If not why are you treating this differently to the PS roll to hit? 

Do you assign the number 1 to any missing profile value and then resolve using that number? If not why are you treating this differently to the PS roll to hit?

Feel free to make a separate YMDC post on the Enfeeble tangent or write up a full fledged argument with regards to Enfeeble case. I will not answer half-baked questions that are tangential to the discussion at hand. Do your homework and show how Enfeeble is directly relevant. By the way, if you rely on a house rule to resolve the Enfeeble case you are supporting my argument.

col_impact wrote:
Where exactly in the rules does it say that the roll to hit is irrelevant? Where does it say you can skip the step?

Witchfire MUST roll to hit.

#1 is the only strict RAW option. #2 is your house rule with no rules support.

It says it by telling us to resolve the power according to the instructions in its entry.

The entry for PS does not link the 3D6 roll to a successful to hit roll.

So hit or miss we still roll 3D6 and subtract the LD score of the target unit.

#1 is not RAW, #2 is because of the rule about resolving the power according to the instructions in its entry.

Thank you for again conceding. You may as well stop posting here now as all you do is throw insults or concede.

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Where exactly in the rules does it say that the roll to hit is irrelevant? Where does it say you can skip the step?

Witchfire MUST roll to hit.

#1 is the only strict RAW option. #2 is your house rule with no rules support.

It says it by telling us to resolve the power according to the instructions in its entry.

The entry for PS does not link the 3D6 roll to a successful to hit roll.

So hit or miss we still roll 3D6 and subtract the LD score of the target unit.

#1 is not RAW, #2 is because of the rule about resolving the power according to the instructions in its entry.

The Psychic Shriek entry links it to a To Hit Roll that must be made.



#1 "Stop the game altogether because you are not given any instructions to continue with a witchfire without a profile" (YOUR WORDS) is the consequence of following strict RAW. We are not granted permission to skip steps anywhere in the rules. The burden on you is to provide such permission. Or as you have noted already the game comes to a screeching halt and can only continue with a house rule (such as the skipping you espouse in your #2 option).

General in thread warning:

Please stop with the 'Thank You For Conceding' stuff.

Unless, of course, someone actually concedes.

Thanks!

The Psychic Shriek entry links it to a To Hit Roll that must be made. 

But nothing relates the success or failure of that roll to the PS effect. Hence the roll is irrelevant as DR has already stated. So time number 4 (if anyone had any doubt that you were conceding by refusing to engage in discussion):


How do you deal with Psychic Shriek cast on a Dreadnaught? 

Do you believe the game breaks and requires house rules to resolve the 3d6-ld effect and the resultant wounds? If not why are you treating this differently to the PS roll to hit?  

Do you assign the number 1 to any missing profile value and then resolve using that number? If not why are you treating this differently to the PS roll to hit?

 FlingitNow wrote:

The Psychic Shriek entry links it to a To Hit Roll that must be made. 

But nothing relates the success or failure of that roll to the PS effect. Hence the roll is irrelevant as DR has already stated. So time number 4 (if anyone had any doubt that you were conceding by refusing to engage in discussion):


How do you deal with the -1T from Enfeeble cast on a Dreadnaught? 

Do you believe the game breaks and requires house rules to resolve? If not why are you treating this differently to the PS roll to hit?  

Do you assign the number 1 to any missing profile value and then resolve using that number? If not why are you treating this differently to the PS roll to hit?

Let me guess you're going to concede again?

Alpharius? Care to take note here?

Edited care to respond col_impact?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Edited care to respond col_impact?

As stated

Feel free to make a separate YMDC post on the Enfeeble tangent or write up a full fledged argument with regards to Enfeeble case. I will not answer half-baked questions that are tangential to the discussion at hand. Do your homework and show how Enfeeble is directly relevant. By the way, if you rely on a house rule to resolve the Enfeeble case you are supporting my argument.

 Alpharius wrote:
General in thread warning:

Please stop with the 'Thank You For Conceding' stuff.

Unless, of course, someone actually concedes.

Thanks!

I would like to point out I only thanked him for conceding when he responded to a direct rules question with a refusal to answer. Which is the same as conceding.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Edited care to respond col_impact?

As stated

Feel free to make a separate YMDC post on the Enfeeble tangent or write up a full fledged argument with regards to Enfeeble case. I will not answer half-baked questions that are tangential to the discussion at hand. Do your homework and show how Enfeeble is directly relevant. By the way, if you rely on a house rule to resolve the Enfeeble case you are supporting my argument.

Did you read the edit? I referenced only Psychic Shriek?

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
General in thread warning:

Please stop with the 'Thank You For Conceding' stuff.

Unless, of course, someone actually concedes.

Thanks!

I would like to point out I only thanked him for conceding when he responded to a direct rules question with a refusal to answer. Which is the same as conceding.

I am not refusing to answer any such questions. You need to make a case for Enfeeble with a clear argument and show direct relevance before it should even be included in this discussion. Otherwise it has no relevance here.

Feel free to make your argument using Enfeeble as an example. Do your homework and make a case in your words. I am not preventing you from making your argument.

So have you got an answer to the question col_impact?

How do you deal with Psychic Shriek cast on a Dreadnaught?  Lets assume you roll 1 dice to hit and it hits.

Do you believe the game breaks and requires house rules to resolve the3d6-ld effect and the resultant wounds? If not why are you treating this differently to the PS roll to hit?   

Do you assign the number 1 to any missing profile value and then resolve using that number? If not why are you treating this differently to the PS roll to hit? 

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
General in thread warning:

Please stop with the 'Thank You For Conceding' stuff.

Unless, of course, someone actually concedes.

Thanks!

I would like to point out I only thanked him for conceding when he responded to a direct rules question with a refusal to answer. Which is the same as conceding.

It isn't, actually.

Please do not do it anymore.

 FlingitNow wrote:
So have you got an answer to the question col_impact?

How do you deal with Psychic Shriek cast on a Dreadnaught?  Lets assume you roll 1 dice to hit and it hits.

Do you believe the game breaks and requires house rules to resolve the3d6-ld effect and the resultant wounds? If not why are you treating this differently to the PS roll to hit?   

Do you assign the number 1 to any missing profile value and then resolve using that number? If not why are you treating this differently to the PS roll to hit? 

This set of questions as posted contradicts itself.

 FlingitNow wrote:
So have you got an answer to the question col_impact?

How do you deal with Psychic Shriek cast on a Dreadnaught?  Lets assume you roll 1 dice to hit and it hits.

Do you believe the game breaks and requires house rules to resolve the3d6-ld effect and the resultant wounds? If not why are you treating this differently to the PS roll to hit?   

Do you assign the number 1 to any missing profile value and then resolve using that number? If not why are you treating this differently to the PS roll to hit? 

I would like an answer to this as well.

Simple question put forth:

How do you deal with Psychic Shriek cast on a Dreadnaught? Lets assume you roll 1 dice to hit and it hits.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
So have you got an answer to the question col_impact?

How do you deal with Psychic Shriek cast on a Dreadnaught?  Lets assume you roll 1 dice to hit and it hits.

Do you believe the game breaks and requires house rules to resolve the3d6-ld effect and the resultant wounds? If not why are you treating this differently to the PS roll to hit?   

Do you assign the number 1 to any missing profile value and then resolve using that number? If not why are you treating this differently to the PS roll to hit? 

I would like an answer to this as well.

Simple question put forth:

How do you deal with Psychic Shriek cast on a Dreadnaught? Lets assume you roll 1 dice to hit and it hits.

You do not have a str value and similarly the rules come to a screeching halt due to the missing profile.



Missing profiles sure cause a problem, don't they? Let's all just admit that Psychic Shriek is a mess and requires house rule to resolve.

 DeathReaper wrote:

You use all of the steps that you can. and you resolve the power according to the instructions in its entry.

Rolling to hit is required, but we have no profile to tell us how many shots we have, so either the game breaks or we skip this step and move on to the next one.

That is rolling To Wound on a successful To Hit roll, can't do that either, there was no To Hit roll.

So at what step are you resolving the roll at?

col_impact wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
So have you got an answer to the question col_impact?

How do you deal with Psychic Shriek cast on a Dreadnaught?  Lets assume you roll 1 dice to hit and it hits.

Do you believe the game breaks and requires house rules to resolve the3d6-ld effect and the resultant wounds? If not why are you treating this differently to the PS roll to hit?   

Do you assign the number 1 to any missing profile value and then resolve using that number? If not why are you treating this differently to the PS roll to hit? 

I would like an answer to this as well.

Simple question put forth:

How do you deal with Psychic Shriek cast on a Dreadnaught? Lets assume you roll 1 dice to hit and it hits.

You do not have a str value and similarly the rules come to a screeching halt due to the missing profile.

Spoiler:

Armour Penetration Rolls
Hitting a vehicle is no guarantee that you will actually damage it. Once a hit has been
scored on a vehicle, roll a D6 and add the weapon’s Strength, comparing this total with
the Armour Value of the appropriate facing of the vehicle.

Missing profiles sure cause a problem, don't they? Let's all just admit that Psychic Shriek is a mess and requires house rule to resolve.

For the sake of discussion lets ignore the armour pen roll as that is the same issue as the to wound roll. How do you resolve the 3d6-ld roll? Then, how to do resolve the resultant wounds?

 FlingitNow wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
So have you got an answer to the question col_impact?

How do you deal with Psychic Shriek cast on a Dreadnaught?  Lets assume you roll 1 dice to hit and it hits.

Do you believe the game breaks and requires house rules to resolve the3d6-ld effect and the resultant wounds? If not why are you treating this differently to the PS roll to hit?   

Do you assign the number 1 to any missing profile value and then resolve using that number? If not why are you treating this differently to the PS roll to hit? 

I would like an answer to this as well.

Simple question put forth:

How do you deal with Psychic Shriek cast on a Dreadnaught? Lets assume you roll 1 dice to hit and it hits.

You do not have a str value and similarly the rules come to a screeching halt due to the missing profile.

Spoiler:

Armour Penetration Rolls
Hitting a vehicle is no guarantee that you will actually damage it. Once a hit has been
scored on a vehicle, roll a D6 and add the weapon’s Strength, comparing this total with
the Armour Value of the appropriate facing of the vehicle.

Missing profiles sure cause a problem, don't they? Let's all just admit that Psychic Shriek is a mess and requires house rule to resolve.

For the sake of discussion lets ignore the armour pen roll as that is the same issue as the to wound roll. How do you resolve the 3d6-ld roll? Then, how to do resolve the resultant wounds?

You cannot ignore the armour pen roll.

Any further arguing of "semantics" (did someone concede or did they not, etc) will result in warnings being issued and the thread likely being locked. This kind of language, or describing your opponent's argument as "drivel", etc is not appropriate for YMDC.

If you cannot argue the rules politely, please simply refrain from posting! The points you are making will be much more persuasive without this off-topic attacking of other posters (on all sides).

Thanks.

I went into the GW store today and had a discussion on the Maleceptor and how I don't think it's very viable - the GW employee argued that it's not as bad as I made out to be as you don't have to roll to hit. You simply have to nominate a model (after successfully manifesting the power) and force the 3D6 Ld check (if you get more than 2 WC).

I argued that you do have to roll to hit as focused witchfires are otherwise treated as witchfires, which have to roll to hit. I didn't mention this in the store, but the Maleceptor has a BS of 3, which is weird if it has access to no ranged weapons whatsoever (for example, Genestealers and Mawloc has a BS of 0 and have no ranged weapon access).

Something to think about anyway...I maintain that you have to roll to hit since RAW they are treated like witchfires but I could be wrong - I think the GW employee just wanted to sell the last WD xD

Gravmyr wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

You use all of the steps that you can. and you resolve the power according to the instructions in its entry.

Rolling to hit is required, but we have no profile to tell us how many shots we have, so either the game breaks or we skip this step and move on to the next one.

That is rolling To Wound on a successful To Hit roll, can't do that either, there was no To Hit roll.

So at what step are you resolving the roll at?

Irrelevant, hit or miss you resolve the power according to the entry, so that means rolling the 3D6 - LD check weather you hit or miss, since the roll does not say it is dependent on a successful To Hit roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
So have you got an answer to the question col_impact?

How do you deal with Psychic Shriek cast on a Dreadnaught?  Lets assume you roll 1 dice to hit and it hits.

Do you believe the game breaks and requires house rules to resolve the3d6-ld effect and the resultant wounds? If not why are you treating this differently to the PS roll to hit?   

Do you assign the number 1 to any missing profile value and then resolve using that number? If not why are you treating this differently to the PS roll to hit? 

I would like an answer to this as well.

Simple question put forth:

How do you deal with Psychic Shriek cast on a Dreadnaught? Lets assume you roll 1 dice to hit and it hits.

You do not have a str value and similarly the rules come to a screeching halt due to the missing profile.

Spoiler:

Armour Penetration Rolls
Hitting a vehicle is no guarantee that you will actually damage it. Once a hit has been
scored on a vehicle, roll a D6 and add the weapon’s Strength, comparing this total with
the Armour Value of the appropriate facing of the vehicle.

Missing profiles sure cause a problem, don't they? Let's all just admit that Psychic Shriek is a mess and requires house rule to resolve.

Incorrect, if you can not apply something, you do not apply it, and you move on. No screeching halt at all.

 Frozocrone wrote:
I maintain that you have to roll to hit since RAW they are treated like witchfires but I could be wrong

No one is claiming that a roll to hit is not needed, it is required by the rules, but nothing in Psychic Shriek (Which is a whitchfire and not a Focused Witchfire) ties the To Hit roll with the resolution of Psychic Shriek.

So you are not resolving it at any step then?

 DeathReaper wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

You use all of the steps that you can. and you resolve the power according to the instructions in its entry.

Rolling to hit is required, but we have no profile to tell us how many shots we have, so either the game breaks or we skip this step and move on to the next one.

That is rolling To Wound on a successful To Hit roll, can't do that either, there was no To Hit roll.

So at what step are you resolving the roll at?

Irrelevant, hit or miss you resolve the power according to the entry, so that means rolling the 3D6 - LD check weather you hit or miss, since the roll does not say it is dependent on a successful To Hit roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
So have you got an answer to the question col_impact?

How do you deal with Psychic Shriek cast on a Dreadnaught?  Lets assume you roll 1 dice to hit and it hits.

Do you believe the game breaks and requires house rules to resolve the3d6-ld effect and the resultant wounds? If not why are you treating this differently to the PS roll to hit?   

Do you assign the number 1 to any missing profile value and then resolve using that number? If not why are you treating this differently to the PS roll to hit? 

I would like an answer to this as well.

Simple question put forth:

How do you deal with Psychic Shriek cast on a Dreadnaught? Lets assume you roll 1 dice to hit and it hits.

You do not have a str value and similarly the rules come to a screeching halt due to the missing profile.

Spoiler:

Armour Penetration Rolls
Hitting a vehicle is no guarantee that you will actually damage it. Once a hit has been
scored on a vehicle, roll a D6 and add the weapon’s Strength, comparing this total with
the Armour Value of the appropriate facing of the vehicle.

Missing profiles sure cause a problem, don't they? Let's all just admit that Psychic Shriek is a mess and requires house rule to resolve.

Incorrect, if you can not apply something, you do not apply it, and you move on. No screeching halt at all.

That's a nice house rule you have there. Skipping the To Wound Roll because of a missing profile effectively buffs the witchfire. AutoWound is a nice feature to have Easter Egged.

A better house rule is one that does not Easter Egg Psychic shriek.

Gravmyr wrote:
So you are not resolving it at any step then?

The 3D6 roll is not tied to the successful To Hit roll so you go through the shooting process, then you make your 3D6 roll. Simple.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
That's a nice house rule you have there. Skipping the To Wound Roll because of a missing profile effectively buffs the witchfire. AutoWound is a nice feature to have Easter Egged.

A better house rule is one that does not Easter Egg Psychic shriek.

I did not say it auto wounds... what are you talking about?

Which would make that not part of a shooting attack. Can you quote a line that states you make the roll outside of a shooting attack?

You cannot ignore the armour pen roll.

Have you ever played a full game? As you seem to want to bring the game to a screeching halt at every opportunity. You clearly have no interest in actually discussing the rules interactions so I think we'll call it a day. You have your HYWPI that results in the game coming to a halt every 5 seconds. I'll continue to play by the RaW and RaI in this case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Which would make that not part of a shooting attack. Can you quote a line that states you make the roll outside of a shooting attack?

Easy the Psychic Shriek rules. If you want to tie them to a specific step in the shooting phase you need to provide rules to support.

 Frozocrone wrote:
I argued that you do have to roll to hit as focused witchfires are otherwise treated as witchfires, which have to roll to hit. I didn't mention this in the store, but the Maleceptor has a BS of 3, which is weird if it has access to no ranged weapons whatsoever (for example, Genestealers and Mawloc has a BS of 0 and have no ranged weapon access).

I'll have to double check this edition, but certainly in the last there was a rule preventing and ranged attacks (including Psychic Shooting Attacks) if the model had BS0.
The BS3 may well be to allow the casting of the power. Or it could be purely Fluff reasons.