DeathReaper wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:
So you are not resolving it at any step then?

The 3D6 roll is not tied to the successful To Hit roll so you go through the shooting process, then you make your 3D6 roll. Simple.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
That's a nice house rule you have there. Skipping the To Wound Roll because of a missing profile effectively buffs the witchfire. AutoWound is a nice feature to have Easter Egged.

A better house rule is one that does not Easter Egg Psychic shriek.

I did not say it auto wounds... what are you talking about?

 FlingitNow wrote:

You cannot ignore the armour pen roll.

Have you ever played a full game? As you seem to want to bring the game to a screeching halt at every opportunity. You clearly have no interest in actually discussing the rules interactions so I think we'll call it a day. You have your HYWPI that results in the game coming to a halt every 5 seconds. I'll continue to play by the RaW and RaI in this case.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Just because it is a shooting attack why does every part of it have to be part of the existing shooting phase rules? Particularly when you have a self contained rule that tells you how to resolve it and references no part of the shooting phase rules. The issue isn't that it doesn't work RaW the issue us that some people have read the "must roll to hit" rule out of context and are treating as the most powerful rule in the game and are trying to make the rules break so they can force their HYWPI over that 1 largely contextual rule.

 FlingitNow wrote:
So do you think the rules are broken everytime there is an interaction with a missing profile item?

BRB - Witchfire wrote:...and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons.

 grendel083 wrote:
I wouldn't say missing. The BRB does say many Witchfires have a Profile. Not all. So a Profile not present is well within the rules.

BRB - Witchfire wrote:...and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons.

JinxDragon wrote:
Would have been nice if the Authors informed us, with specific instructions, how to resolve Witchfires without Profiles.
The number of times this topic comes up, and the fact it is always 10-20 pages before locked, clearly indicates what we have is too vague to follow....

Nope. Only where the missing profile leads to questions that cannot be answered. Sometimes unstated default values can be justified or gaps filled in elsewhere by the rules.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Nope. Only where the missing profile leads to questions that cannot be answered. Sometimes unstated default values can be justified or gaps filled in elsewhere by the rules.

So if the missing profile leads to unresolvable actions you believe the game breaks. Is this correct?

col_impact wrote:
You are saying you can skip the To Wound Roll on successful Psychic Shriek hits. Provide rules justification for skipping the step. If you cannot provide that justification you are implementing a house rule. There is nothing wrong with implementing a house rule. Psychic Shriek requires a house rule to resolve. This should come as no surprise since we are obviously missing critical info required to resolve Psychic Shriek as a shooting attack per strict RAW. There is only a problem with the actual HYWPI that you are advocating (since it Easter Eggs).

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:
You are saying you can skip the To Wound Roll on successful Psychic Shriek hits. Provide rules justification for skipping the step. If you cannot provide that justification you are implementing a house rule. There is nothing wrong with implementing a house rule. Psychic Shriek requires a house rule to resolve. This should come as no surprise since we are obviously missing critical info required to resolve Psychic Shriek as a shooting attack per strict RAW. There is only a problem with the actual HYWPI that you are advocating (since it Easter Eggs).

What To Wound roll?

Psychic Shriek does not have a To Wound roll...

"To determine whether a hit causes a telling amount of damage, compare the weapon’s Strength characteristic with the target’s Toughness characteristic using the To Wound chart below." (The shooting Phase Chapter, Roll To Wound section).

Psychic Shriek does not have a Strength characteristic to compare with a Toughness characteristic so you can not use the To Wound chart ergo Psychic Shriek does not ever roll To Wound rolls...

 Happyjew wrote:
col_impact - Would you say that once you start the shooting sequence, you must complete all steps, and cannot skip any steps?

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
col_impact - Would you say that once you start the shooting sequence, you must complete all steps, and cannot skip any steps?

Spoiler:

THE SHOOTING PHASE
As armies engage, guns thunder and shrapnel rains down from the sky. In a Warhammer 40,000 battle, a player’s army fires in the Shooting phase of his turn. During the Shooting phase, units armed with ranged weapons can fire at the enemy. You can choose any order for your units to shoot, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move on to the next.

The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below. Each step is explained in greater detail later in this section. Once you’ve completed this shooting sequence with one of your units, select another and repeat the sequence. Once you have completed steps 1 to 7 for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack, carry on to the Assault phase.

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
col_impact - Would you say that once you start the shooting sequence, you must complete all steps, and cannot skip any steps?

Spoiler:

THE SHOOTING PHASE
As armies engage, guns thunder and shrapnel rains down from the sky. In a Warhammer 40,000 battle, a player’s army fires in the Shooting phase of his turn. During the Shooting phase, units armed with ranged weapons can fire at the enemy. You can choose any order for your units to shoot, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move on to the next.

The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below. Each step is explained in greater detail later in this section. Once you’ve completed this shooting sequence with one of your units, select another and repeat the sequence. Once you have completed steps 1 to 7 for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack, carry on to the Assault phase.

That is for THE SHOOTING PHASE not for The Psychic Phase...

col_impact wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
col_impact - Would you say that once you start the shooting sequence, you must complete all steps, and cannot skip any steps?

Spoiler:

THE SHOOTING PHASE
As armies engage, guns thunder and shrapnel rains down from the sky. In a Warhammer 40,000 battle, a player’s army fires in the Shooting phase of his turn. During the Shooting phase, units armed with ranged weapons can fire at the enemy. You can choose any order for your units to shoot, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move on to the next.

The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below. Each step is explained in greater detail later in this section. Once you’ve completed this shooting sequence with one of your units, select another and repeat the sequence. Once you have completed steps 1 to 7 for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack, carry on to the Assault phase.

That is for THE SHOOTING PHASE not for The Psychic Phase...

Witchfire are shooting attacks. Don't blame me for GW sloppiness.

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
col_impact - Would you say that once you start the shooting sequence, you must complete all steps, and cannot skip any steps?

Spoiler:

THE SHOOTING PHASE
As armies engage, guns thunder and shrapnel rains down from the sky. In a Warhammer 40,000 battle, a player’s army fires in the Shooting phase of his turn. During the Shooting phase, units armed with ranged weapons can fire at the enemy. You can choose any order for your units to shoot, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move on to the next.

The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below. Each step is explained in greater detail later in this section. Once you’ve completed this shooting sequence with one of your units, select another and repeat the sequence. Once you have completed steps 1 to 7 for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack, carry on to the Assault phase.

 Happyjew wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
col_impact - Would you say that once you start the shooting sequence, you must complete all steps, and cannot skip any steps?

Spoiler:

THE SHOOTING PHASE
As armies engage, guns thunder and shrapnel rains down from the sky. In a Warhammer 40,000 battle, a player’s army fires in the Shooting phase of his turn. During the Shooting phase, units armed with ranged weapons can fire at the enemy. You can choose any order for your units to shoot, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move on to the next.

The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below. Each step is explained in greater detail later in this section. Once you’ve completed this shooting sequence with one of your units, select another and repeat the sequence. Once you have completed steps 1 to 7 for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack, carry on to the Assault phase.

So what happens, in the Shooting phase, if you cannot complete all the steps?

For example, I nominate a unit of Tac Marines (with a Plasma Cannon).
I decide to fire the Plasma Cannon first, and roll a 1 for Gets Hot.

What happens next?

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
col_impact - Would you say that once you start the shooting sequence, you must complete all steps, and cannot skip any steps?

Spoiler:

THE SHOOTING PHASE
As armies engage, guns thunder and shrapnel rains down from the sky. In a Warhammer 40,000 battle, a player’s army fires in the Shooting phase of his turn. During the Shooting phase, units armed with ranged weapons can fire at the enemy. You can choose any order for your units to shoot, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move on to the next.

The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below. Each step is explained in greater detail later in this section. Once you’ve completed this shooting sequence with one of your units, select another and repeat the sequence. Once you have completed steps 1 to 7 for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack, carry on to the Assault phase.

So what happens, in the Shooting phase, if you cannot complete all the steps?

For example, I nominate a unit of Tac Marines (with a Plasma Cannon).
I decide to fire the Plasma Cannon first, and roll a 1 for Gets Hot.

What happens next?

Relevance? Plasma Cannon is a blast weapon, so we follow the sequence in the blast rule. Psychic Shriek is not a blast weapon.

Spoiler:

When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit. Instead, just pick one enemy model visible to the firer and place the 3" blast marker with its hole entirely over the base of the target model (see diagram), or its hull if the target is a vehicle. The hole at the centre of the marker must be within the weapon’s maximum range. You cannot place the blast marker so that the base or hull of any friendly model is even partially under it.

The large area affected by the blast means it’s going to be very hard to miss completely. Nonetheless, the shot might not land exactly where intended. Roll for the blast marker to scatter and subtract the firer’s Ballistic Skill from the distance (if any) that it scatters, to a minimum of 0". Note that it is possible, and absolutely fine, for a shot to scatter beyond the weapon’s maximum or minimum range and line of sight. This represents the chance of ricochets, the missile blasting through cover and other random events. In these cases, hits are worked out as normal and can hit and wound units out of range and line of sight (or even your own units, or models locked in combat). If the shot scatters so that the hole in the centre of the marker is beyond the table’s edge, the shot is a complete miss and is discarded.

Once the final position of the blast marker has been determined, take a good look at it from above – each unit suffers one hit for each of their models which is fully or partially beneath the blast marker, even if those models are not within the firer’s line of sight.

Once the number of hits inflicted on the unit has been worked out, roll To Wound and save as normal. Remember that any Wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight of any models from the attacking unit.

Spoiler:

Gets Hot and Weapons that do not roll To Hit

Weapons that do not roll To Hit (such as Blast weapons) must roll a D6 for each shot immediately before firing. On a 2+, the shot is resolved as normal. For each roll of a 1, the weapon Gets Hot; that shot is not fired and the firing model immediately suffers a single Wound (armour saves or invulnerable saves can be taken) – this Wound cannot be allocated to any other model in the unit. A character cannot make a Look Out, Sir attempt to avoid a Wound caused by the Gets Hot special rule. A vehicle instead suffers a glancing hit on a further roll of a 1, 2 or 3.

 Happyjew wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
col_impact - Would you say that once you start the shooting sequence, you must complete all steps, and cannot skip any steps?

Spoiler:

THE SHOOTING PHASE
As armies engage, guns thunder and shrapnel rains down from the sky. In a Warhammer 40,000 battle, a player’s army fires in the Shooting phase of his turn. During the Shooting phase, units armed with ranged weapons can fire at the enemy. You can choose any order for your units to shoot, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move on to the next.

The shooting process can be summarised in seven steps, as described below. Each step is explained in greater detail later in this section. Once you’ve completed this shooting sequence with one of your units, select another and repeat the sequence. Once you have completed steps 1 to 7 for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack, carry on to the Assault phase.

So what happens, in the Shooting phase, if you cannot complete all the steps?

For example, I nominate a unit of Tac Marines (with a Plasma Cannon).
I decide to fire the Plasma Cannon first, and roll a 1 for Gets Hot.

What happens next?

Relevance? Plasma Cannon is a blast weapon, so we follow the sequence in the blast rule. Psychic Shriek is not a blast weapon.

Spoiler:

When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit. Instead, just pick one enemy model visible to the firer and place the 3" blast marker with its hole entirely over the base of the target model (see diagram), or its hull if the target is a vehicle. The hole at the centre of the marker must be within the weapon’s maximum range. You cannot place the blast marker so that the base or hull of any friendly model is even partially under it.

The large area affected by the blast means it’s going to be very hard to miss completely. Nonetheless, the shot might not land exactly where intended. Roll for the blast marker to scatter and subtract the firer’s Ballistic Skill from the distance (if any) that it scatters, to a minimum of 0". Note that it is possible, and absolutely fine, for a shot to scatter beyond the weapon’s maximum or minimum range and line of sight. This represents the chance of ricochets, the missile blasting through cover and other random events. In these cases, hits are worked out as normal and can hit and wound units out of range and line of sight (or even your own units, or models locked in combat). If the shot scatters so that the hole in the centre of the marker is beyond the table’s edge, the shot is a complete miss and is discarded.

Once the final position of the blast marker has been determined, take a good look at it from above – each unit suffers one hit for each of their models which is fully or partially beneath the blast marker, even if those models are not within the firer’s line of sight.

Once the number of hits inflicted on the unit has been worked out, roll To Wound and save as normal. Remember that any Wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight of any models from the attacking unit.

Spoiler:

Gets Hot and Weapons that do not roll To Hit

Weapons that do not roll To Hit (such as Blast weapons) must roll a D6 for each shot immediately before firing. On a 2+, the shot is resolved as normal. For each roll of a 1, the weapon Gets Hot; that shot is not fired and the firing model immediately suffers a single Wound (armour saves or invulnerable saves can be taken) – this Wound cannot be allocated to any other model in the unit. A character cannot make a Look Out, Sir attempt to avoid a Wound caused by the Gets Hot special rule. A vehicle instead suffers a glancing hit on a further roll of a 1, 2 or 3.

You misunderstand.

This has nothing to do blast weapons. This is about following the Shooting sequence. Please, bear with me for a moment.

So, as I said, Plasma Cannon Gets Hot. We are already part way through the Shooting Sequence. What happens next.?

If, on the off-chance, you feel I'm trying to derail the thread, or trying to start problems, feel free to PM me with your answer, and we'll ocntinue this discussion outside of hte thread.

col_impact wrote:
The Blast rules offer an alternate sideways path through the Shooting Sequence that is instead of a To Hit Roll. We are not resolving To Hit Rolls per normal Shooting Sequence. It normally re-integrates back with the Shooting Sequence at the To Wound Roll "once the number of hits inflicted on the unit has been worked out."

The Gets Hot rule is a sub routine that is invoked on a roll of one that is cast immediately before firing. Per special exception granted by that rule, the shot resolves as a registered miss/non-fire/self-wound.

Both Blast and Gets Hot are rules providing specific exceptions.

 Happyjew wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The Blast rules offer an alternate sideways path through the Shooting Sequence that is instead of a To Hit Roll. We are not resolving To Hit Rolls per normal Shooting Sequence. It normally re-integrates back with the Shooting Sequence at the To Wound Roll "once the number of hits inflicted on the unit has been worked out."

The Gets Hot rule is a sub routine that is invoked on a roll of one that is cast immediately before firing. Per special exception granted by that rule, the shot resolves as a registered miss/non-fire/self-wound.

Both Blast and Gets Hot are rules providing specific exceptions.

I think you are under the impression that I am waiting for you to say "First place the blast marker and roll for scatter. Then count the number of models below the marker to determine hits" at which point I will reply "You didn't roll To Hit. Therefore you are breaking the shooting sequence rules". I assure you this is not the case. If you are uncomfortable with discussing a plasma cannon, let's switch it up then.

1. I nominate a unit of Tac Marines (one with a Lascannon).
2. I choose to target the Hornet 26" away
3. I decide to fire the Lascannon first.
4. I roll To Hit, and roll a 1.

What happens next?

 FlingitNow wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Witchfires require you to roll to hit to resolve the power, and follow the rules for shooting.

if you fail to hit, you have missed.

Correct

if you miss you do not proceed past the hit roll step as the attack has ended, and the rest of the entries rules no longer matter unless it specifies it has an affect on a miss.

Repeating this over and over won't make it more true. If you don't hit you don't do a to wound roll. Anything else that needs to be resolved as part of that attack that is not a to wound roll or not dependent on a to wound roll continues as you have no denial of the permission to resolve those rules.

if people are asserting that the attack gets to continue because the psychic power rules say to resolve the psychic power, and you have to resolve the entire profile.

then if you miss with warp blast (lance)
18" range strength 10 assault 1 ap 2, do you still resolve the strength 10 hit?

What S10 hit? You just stated there was no hit. As covered in depth you would not make a to wound roll for that attack as that is dependent on a successful to hit roll (an armour pen roll is made instead of a to wound roll so is also covered by this). This has all been explained to you several times so why are you deliberately posting untrue statements?

It has all the same rules to resolve as a normal witchfire power just like psychic shriek, and neither entry states you may not resolve the effect on a miss.

Cool we resolve Warp Blast too. What effect does it have? We have covered no to wound (or armour pen) roll is made so what are you expecting Warp Blast to do?

blaktoof wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Witchfires require you to roll to hit to resolve the power, and follow the rules for shooting.

if you fail to hit, you have missed.

Correct

if you miss you do not proceed past the hit roll step as the attack has ended, and the rest of the entries rules no longer matter unless it specifies it has an affect on a miss.

Repeating this over and over won't make it more true. If you don't hit you don't do a to wound roll. Anything else that needs to be resolved as part of that attack that is not a to wound roll or not dependent on a to wound roll continues as you have no denial of the permission to resolve those rules.

if people are asserting that the attack gets to continue because the psychic power rules say to resolve the psychic power, and you have to resolve the entire profile.

then if you miss with warp blast (lance)
18" range strength 10 assault 1 ap 2, do you still resolve the strength 10 hit?

What S10 hit? You just stated there was no hit. As covered in depth you would not make a to wound roll for that attack as that is dependent on a successful to hit roll (an armour pen roll is made instead of a to wound roll so is also covered by this). This has all been explained to you several times so why are you deliberately posting untrue statements?

It has all the same rules to resolve as a normal witchfire power just like psychic shriek, and neither entry states you may not resolve the effect on a miss.

Cool we resolve Warp Blast too. What effect does it have? We have covered no to wound (or armour pen) roll is made so what are you expecting Warp Blast to do?

the issue with your reply is this:

both have the same restriction of following the shooting rules, both are required to roll to hit.

if you miss with either you stop at step 4 "rolling to hit" because you failed to proceed at this point of the shooting rules-which are required. You do not go on to step 5, or anything after it because you have failed the attack at this point. There is no check to see if the weapon/attack has a strength value or other way of effecting a unit, because the attack has failed at this point.

neither are required to have a weapon profile, and neither have an exemption specifically stated in their rules that the rest of their entry can be resolved after failing to hit.

as there is nothing in psychic shrieks profile over another witchfire power that tells us we can resolve the rest of the effect on a miss, there is no actual rules stance that allows for such to occur.

so there is no actual RAW reason to proceed with resolving the one on a miss, versus the other.