Focussed Witchfire & Rolling To Hit [Re-Hash for new rules]

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**BlackTalos**

JinxDragon wrote:
Would have been nice if the Authors informed us, with specific instructions, how to resolve Witchfires without Profiles.
The number of times this topic comes up, and the fact it is always 10-20 pages before locked, clearly indicates what we have is too vague to follow....

I think i'll conclude that i can definitely agree with this!

I will personally bow out until we get a decent new Rule change. My OP was only because the new Nids added "Treat Vehicles as Ld10" and "multiple attempts" which was never in the RaW before.

Hasn't seemed to change anything whatsoever....

ED: Yay for page 14!

**blaktoof**

FlingitNow wrote:
Blaktoof we have already shown general permission to resolve a power. If this permission is not enough to work for a miss then it is not enough to work for a hit. Thus where is your permission to resolve the 3d6-ld on a hit?

My reply was entirely RaW.

your reply was not entirely RAW.

and honestly your reply makes no sense.

you really feel that because it doesn't say "if you hit with the required to hit roll you may then.."

means the absence of "if you miss you may not continue the attack" means that you can continue the attack on a miss.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:

So if you miss with a normal shooting attack, you skip Steps 5-7?

Why would you continue going down the list of steps if you fail at 1?

if you have 0 units that have targets in LOS to shoot do you begin at step 1 and nominate each unit because it can shoot, then go on to step 2, the units are out of los, but instead of going on to the next unit you roll to hit then wound then allocate the wounds and check for casualties?

seriously?

you are seriously saying that for all eligible units you go through all the steps even if they fail at one and cannot progress to anything after?

**col_impact**

rigeld2 wrote:
Happyjew wrote:
col_impact wrote:
The Blast rules offer an alternate sideways path through the Shooting Sequence that is instead of a To Hit Roll. We are not resolving To Hit Rolls per normal Shooting Sequence. It normally re-integrates back with the Shooting Sequence at the To Wound Roll "once the number of hits inflicted on the unit has been worked out."

The Gets Hot rule is a sub routine that is invoked on a roll of one that is cast immediately before firing. Per special exception granted by that rule, the shot resolves as a registered miss/non-fire/self-wound.

Both Blast and Gets Hot are rules providing specific exceptions.

I think you are under the impression that I am waiting for you to say "First place the blast marker and roll for scatter. Then count the number of models below the marker to determine hits" at which point I will reply "You didn't roll To Hit. Therefore you are breaking the shooting sequence rules". I assure you this is not the case. If you are uncomfortable with discussing a plasma cannon, let's switch it up then.

1. I nominate a unit of Tac Marines (one with a Lascannon).
2. I choose to target the Hornet 26" away
3. I decide to fire the Lascannon first.
4. I roll To Hit, and roll a 1.

What happens next?

He's already answered that it requires a house rule to continue.

I thought the Mods made it clear that posters on this this thread are to refrain from putting words into other people's mouths.

**rigeld2**

col_impact wrote:
I thought the Mods made it clear that posters on this this thread are to refrain from putting words into other people's mouths.

Since you've said literally that, it's not putting words in your mouth - it's repeating your answer. Feel free to flag my post, however - I don't mind at all.

**nosferatu1001**

Blaktoof - rule to say you stop at step four if you have hi successful hits. The actual rules font say this, but instead at step five ask you to see how many you have, and till a dice for each.

In other words, your assertion is false, you resolve all steps in sequence, following the rules contained within.

**col_impact**

Happyjew wrote:
col_impact wrote:
The Blast rules offer an alternate sideways path through the Shooting Sequence that is instead of a To Hit Roll. We are not resolving To Hit Rolls per normal Shooting Sequence. It normally re-integrates back with the Shooting Sequence at the To Wound Roll "once the number of hits inflicted on the unit has been worked out."

The Gets Hot rule is a sub routine that is invoked on a roll of one that is cast immediately before firing. Per special exception granted by that rule, the shot resolves as a registered miss/non-fire/self-wound.

Both Blast and Gets Hot are rules providing specific exceptions.

I think you are under the impression that I am waiting for you to say "First place the blast marker and roll for scatter. Then count the number of models below the marker to determine hits" at which point I will reply "You didn't roll To Hit. Therefore you are breaking the shooting sequence rules". I assure you this is not the case. If you are uncomfortable with discussing a plasma cannon, let's switch it up then.

1. I nominate a unit of Tac Marines (one with a Lascannon).
2. I choose to target the Hornet 26" away
3. I decide to fire the Lascannon first.
4. I roll To Hit, and roll a 1.

What happens next?

I am not uncomfortable discussing a plasma cannon or a lascannon. However, I will not do your work for you or go down a tangent before relevance has been shown. If you have an argument to make then make it. Please include in your argument how this discussion about plasma cannons or lascannons is relevant to the discussion at hand. Relevance is important here to make clear since we do not want to de-rail the thread. So make sure to make it abundantly clear how this point you are going to make is relevant to the discussion at hand about Psychic Shriek.

Lascannon Range: 48" S:9 AP:2 Heavy 1

Shooting Sequence

Spoiler:

Gets Hot

Spoiler:

I have posted the relevant rules. I eagerly await the presentation of your argument in your words.

**BlackTalos**

col_impact wrote:
Relevance is important here to make clear since we do not want to de-rail the thread. So make sure to make it abundantly clear how this point you are going to make is relevant to the discussion at hand about Psychic Shriek.

Although technically my original question was about the Maleceptor and his new Tyranid Psychic power (which is a Focussed Witchfire) changing anything about the current "Witchfire must roll To Hit" debate.

Psychic Shriek has always been a tangent.

**col_impact**

rigeld2 wrote:
col_impact wrote:
I thought the Mods made it clear that posters on this this thread are to refrain from putting words into other people's mouths.

Since you've said literally that, it's not putting words in your mouth - it's repeating your answer. Feel free to flag my post, however - I don't mind at all.

Where have I said that it breaks the game and requires house rule to resolve a weapon with Gets Hot?

Mods - please take note of rigeld's continued attempts at trying to put words in other people's mouths.

Rigeld - Please refrain from this disruptive behavior. It has no place in a YMDC thread.

**rigeld2**

col_impact wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
col_impact wrote:
I thought the Mods made it clear that posters on this this thread are to refrain from putting words into other people's mouths.

Since you've said literally that, it's not putting words in your mouth - it's repeating your answer. Feel free to flag my post, however - I don't mind at all.

Where have I said that it breaks the game and requires house rule to resolve a weapon with Gets Hot?

Mods - please take note of rigeld's continued attempts at trying to put words in other people's mouths.

Rigeld - Please refrain from this disruptive behavior. It has no place in a YMDC thread.

col_impact wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
What happens if you have no successful hits? According to your words (almost literal) it's a logical implausibility to be able to satisfy a step if you roll zero dice.
This is a situation where you're required - by the rules - to roll zero dice.

According to you, this requires a house rule to continue. Do you agree?

Yup, this requires a house rule to continue. And my house rule is better than yours.

I've not put any words in your mouth. You've literally said that if the rules require you to roll 0 dice it requires a house rule to continue.
It's not disruptive behavior to note what you've argued in this very thread.

**col_impact**

rigeld2 wrote:
col_impact wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
col_impact wrote:
I thought the Mods made it clear that posters on this this thread are to refrain from putting words into other people's mouths.

Since you've said literally that, it's not putting words in your mouth - it's repeating your answer. Feel free to flag my post, however - I don't mind at all.

Where have I said that it breaks the game and requires house rule to resolve a weapon with Gets Hot?

Mods - please take note of rigeld's continued attempts at trying to put words in other people's mouths.

Rigeld - Please refrain from this disruptive behavior. It has no place in a YMDC thread.

col_impact wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
What happens if you have no successful hits? According to your words (almost literal) it's a logical implausibility to be able to satisfy a step if you roll zero dice.
This is a situation where you're required - by the rules - to roll zero dice.

According to you, this requires a house rule to continue. Do you agree?

Yup, this requires a house rule to continue. And my house rule is better than yours.

I've not put any words in your mouth. You've literally said that if the rules require you to roll 0 dice it requires a house rule to continue.
It's not disruptive behavior to note what you've argued in this very thread.

Taken out of context. It was in the midst of a discussion about the To Wound Roll.

Witchfire powers MUST roll to hit. You are required to pick up a die and roll to hit. Successful hits require a roll to wound. It's at the To Wound Roll that Psychic Shriek breaks since you lack the profile which would have the critical info to continue.

My comment above references the To Wound Roll which you arrive at from successful hits. If I got confused or I confused you, allow me to clarify . . .

You are pushing for a solution which involves rolling zero dice to hit while actively shooting psychic shriek as a shooting attack, which is not only a logical implausibility and relies on fictions that are not to be found in the rules (there is no such thing as a zero shot shooting attack), the rules expressly forbid it (witchfire powers MUST roll to hit).

This is all fine if you want to house rule Psychic Shriek as a "zero shot shooting attack" but it's not RAW.

Witchfire powers must roll to hit.

**rigeld2**

col_impact wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
col_impact wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
What happens if you have no successful hits? According to your words (almost literal) it's a logical implausibility to be able to satisfy a step if you roll zero dice.
This is a situation where you're required - by the rules - to roll zero dice.

According to you, this requires a house rule to continue. Do you agree?

Yup, this requires a house rule to continue. And my house rule is better than yours.

I've not put any words in your mouth. You've literally said that if the rules require you to roll 0 dice it requires a house rule to continue.
It's not disruptive behavior to note what you've argued in this very thread.

Taken out of context. It was in the midst of a discussion about the To Wound Roll.

The question was "This is a situation where you're required - by the rules - to roll zero dice.

According to you, this requires a house rule to continue. Do you agree?"
You said yes.

Witchfire powers MUST roll to hit. You are required to pick up a die and roll to hit. Successful hits require a roll to wound. It's at the To Wound Roll that Psychic Shriek breaks since you lack the profile which would have the critical info to continue.

My comment above references the To Wound Roll which you arrive at from successful hits. If I got confused or I confused you, allow me to clarify . . .

You are pushing for a solution which involves rolling zero dice to hit while actively shooting psychic shriek as a shooting attack, which is not only a logical implausibility and relies on fictions that are not to be found in the rules (there is no such thing as a zero shot shooting attack), the rules expressly forbid it (witchfire powers MUST roll to hit).

This is all fine if you want to house rule Psychic Shriek as a "zero shot shooting attack" but it's not RAW.

Witchfire powers must roll to hit.

I've underlined an incorrect statement - there demonstrably is. It's been demonstrated multiple times.

**col_impact**

rigeld2 wrote:
col_impact wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
col_impact wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
What happens if you have no successful hits? According to your words (almost literal) it's a logical implausibility to be able to satisfy a step if you roll zero dice.
This is a situation where you're required - by the rules - to roll zero dice.

According to you, this requires a house rule to continue. Do you agree?

Yup, this requires a house rule to continue. And my house rule is better than yours.

I've not put any words in your mouth. You've literally said that if the rules require you to roll 0 dice it requires a house rule to continue.
It's not disruptive behavior to note what you've argued in this very thread.

Taken out of context. It was in the midst of a discussion about the To Wound Roll.

The question was "This is a situation where you're required - by the rules - to roll zero dice.

According to you, this requires a house rule to continue. Do you agree?"
You said yes.

Witchfire powers MUST roll to hit. You are required to pick up a die and roll to hit. Successful hits require a roll to wound. It's at the To Wound Roll that Psychic Shriek breaks since you lack the profile which would have the critical info to continue.

My comment above references the To Wound Roll which you arrive at from successful hits. If I got confused or I confused you, allow me to clarify . . .

You are pushing for a solution which involves rolling zero dice to hit while actively shooting psychic shriek as a shooting attack, which is not only a logical implausibility and relies on fictions that are not to be found in the rules (there is no such thing as a zero shot shooting attack), the rules expressly forbid it (witchfire powers MUST roll to hit).

This is all fine if you want to house rule Psychic Shriek as a "zero shot shooting attack" but it's not RAW.

Witchfire powers must roll to hit.

I've underlined an incorrect statement - there demonstrably is. It's been demonstrated multiple times.

The To Wound Roll requires a house rule to continue in the case of resolving successful hits from Psychic Shriek, which is what we were discussing.

Feel free to prove the existence of a zero shot shooting attack. I've combed the BRB and have found no profiles with Assault 0 on them or anything along those lines. The burden of proof is on you.

**DeathReaper**

col_impact wrote:
The To Wound Roll requires a house rule to continue in the case of resolving successful hits from Psychic Shriek, which is what we were discussing.

It does not require a house rule.

Since there are no successful To Hit rolls with Psychic Shriek, we never roll To Wound.

Then we continue to resolve the power according to the instructions in its entry as the rules tell us to do.

**col_impact**

DeathReaper wrote:
col_impact wrote:
The To Wound Roll requires a house rule to continue in the case of resolving successful hits from Psychic Shriek, which is what we were discussing.

It does not require a house rule.

Since there are no successful To Hit rolls with Psychic Shriek, we never roll To Wound.

Then we continue to resolve the power according to the instructions in its entry as the rules tell us to do.

Please indicate exactly how you resolve Psychic Shriek without ever having any successful To Hit rolls.

Witchfire powers MUST roll to hit.

Zero shot shooting attacks are a fiction that you are making up. This is all fine if you are just claiming HYWPI, but this is not RAW.

**nosferatu1001**

Yes, they must follow e "to hit" process. We have no dice to roll, so complete this step. You're misunderstanding, wilfully, the step vs w process. I suggest you reread the brb

**grendel083**

col_impact wrote:
Zero shot shooting attacks are a fiction that you are making up.

As an example of a legal zero shot shooting attack:
A heavy plasma gun. It makes a legal shooting attack that fails it's Gets Hot! roll for its one shot (test is taken per shot, and discounts the shot if failed).
So a Zero shot Attack.

**col_impact**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, they must follow e "to hit" process. We have no dice to roll, so complete this step. You're misunderstanding, wilfully, the step vs w process. I suggest you reread the brb

Spoiler:

Also, there is no such thing as a zero shot shooting attack.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

grendel083 wrote:
col_impact wrote:
Zero shot shooting attacks are a fiction that you are making up.
As an example of a legal zero shot shooting attack:
A heavy plasma gun. It makes a legal shooting attack that fails it's Gets Hot! roll for its one shot (test is taken per shot, and discounts the shot if failed).
So a Zero shot Attack.

Does the heavy plasma gun have a zero on its profile for the number of shots it takes? If not, then this is clearly not an example of a zero shot shooting attack.

**nosferatu1001**

Yes, have you completed the step roll to hit? We have. Done, again.

**grendel083**

It had one on its profile, during the first stages of the shooting sequence, but this one was discounted befor the To Hit stage.

It went into the rolling to hit stage (replaced with Scatter obviously) with zero shots.

It is a zero shot shooting attack.

**JinxDragon**

How many Shots are Fired if a lone Plasma Cannon Get's Hot?
As you have put forth the statement that a Shooting Attack which Fires 0 Shots is not possible, please provide an answer to this question which isn't 0.

**col_impact**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, have you completed the step roll to hit? We have. Done, again.

"a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is has the Blast special rule, in which case it
scatters as described in the Blast special rule, or it is a Template weapon, which hit
automatically."

Automatically Appended Next Post:

JinxDragon wrote:
How many Shots are Fired if it Get's Hot?
This is all about a Shooting Attack which Fires 0 Shots being impossible, so please provide an answer to this question which isn't 0.

How many shots are on the profile of the weapon in question? This is all about the plausibility of a zero shot shooting attack, not on whether special exceptions are caused by specific rules like Gets Hot.

Does Psychic Shriek have Gets Hot on its profile? Does Gets Hot actually modify the weapon profile or simply resolve the hit in a specific rules mandated manner?

**JinxDragon**

To Hit is the name of a Rule, so what does that Rule tell us in relation to rolling?
A number equal to the Shots being Fired....

As long as those Rules are obeyed, we have successfully completed this Step.

**col_impact**

JinxDragon wrote:
To Hit is the name of a Rule, so what does that Rule tell us in relation to rolling?
A number equal to the Shots being Fired....

As long as those Rules are obeyed, we have successfully completed this Step.

"a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is has the Blast special rule, in which case it
scatters as described in the Blast special rule, or it is a Template weapon, which hit
automatically."

Shooting attacks with zero shots on their profile do not exist.

**JinxDragon**

If secondary Rules can lead to a situation where 0 Shots are possible, then it proves that 0 Shots are a possible outcome!
If one Secondary Rule can lead to a situation where 0 Shots occur, then other secondary Rules have the ability to lead to the very same outcome.
Now it is up to you to prove that a Psychic Power, a secondary Rule in this situation, is specifically forbidden from generating 0 Shots....

**col_impact**

JinxDragon wrote:
If secondary Rules can lead to a situation where 0 Shots are possible, then it proves that 0 Shots are a possible outcome!
If one Secondary Rule can lead to a situation where 0 Shots occur, then other secondary Rules have the ability to lead to the very same outcome.
Now it is up to you to prove that a Psychic Power, a secondary Rule in this situation, is specifically forbidden from generating 0 Shots....

"a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is has the Blast special rule, in which case it
scatters as described in the Blast special rule, or it is a Template weapon, which hit
automatically."

The burden is on you. Psychic Shriek doesn't have any secondary Rules on its profile. Seriously, is this the argument you are advancing, Jinx Dragon?

Edited by RiTides

**nosferatu1001**

Yes, we are aware of that rule. It just refers to step four, the process. Where you then determine how many dice we have. We have an indeterminate number of shots (proven) so when we get to step four, we auto resolve that step, as w have rolled a dice for as many shots as we have.

**JinxDragon**

col_impact,
Repeating the Rule you quoted is not evidence that your interpretation of said Rule is correct, particularly when someone is pointing out that you might be misapplying the Rule in question.

What you quoted tells us that we must Roll To Hit, which I do agree is what the Rule states, but that doesn't tell us what a 'To Hit' is or how we go about Rolling it. Those instructions are found in a Rule called 'To Hit' and they inform us how we go about successfully resolving this Step of the sequence. Those instructions inform us that Rolling a dice will be part of the process, so the terminology 'Roll To Hit' directly relates to the process within the To Hit Step itself. So, as long as we can obey the actual instructions within the To Hit process, we have successfully rolled To Hit.

As for the burden of proof:
We repetitively have shown evidence that Advanced Rules can modify the basic Shooting Sequence to create a 0 Shots outcome.
Psychic Powers are an Advanced Rules, so they have the ability to generate a 0 Shot outcome.
Regardless if this one Psychic Power does or does not, the core concept of 0 Shot outcomes for a Psychic Power has support!

PS:
Accusing me of bending a Rule for an Advantages is far from justified.
Particularly given that I am a Tau player so I am the least likely to ever be in a situation where I can exploit anything!

**nosferatu1001**

Oh, and stop claiming people are bending for advantage, as you are indirectly accusing them of bias. Rule one, again.

**col_impact**

JinxDragon wrote:
col_impact,
Repeating the Rule you quoted is not evidence when someone is pointing out that you might be mis-applying the Rule. What you quoted tells us that we must Roll To Hit, which I do agree is what the Rule states, but that doesn't tell us what a 'To Hit' is or how we go about Rolling it. Those instructions are found in a Rule called 'To Hit' and they inform us how we go about successfully resolving this Step of the sequence. Those instructions inform us that Rolling a dice will be part of the process, so the terminology 'Roll To Hit' directly relates to the process within the To Hit Step itself.

So, as long as we can obey the actual instructions within the To Hit process, we have successfully rolled To Hit.

PS:
Accusing me of bending a Rule for an Advantages is far from justified.
Particularly given that I am a Tau player!

There is a clear directive to roll to hit. It takes a house rule on your part to interpret rolling zero dice as rolling to hit when the clear language and logic indicate a die must be rolled. It also takes a house rule on your part to treat Psychic Shriek as a zero shot shooting attack.

At no point is any burden of proof on me. I am not the one claiming a strict RAW solution.

**RiTides**

Had to edit a few posts here... once again, please remember rule #1 and simply argue the rules, not the character / motivation of the other poster. Thanks.