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While I did select 'undercosted', I think it is more accurate to say it is both OP *and* overcosted.

It is op. Look t other posts for that at the moment.

But I don't think the problem is that it simply costs too little. Sure, if you bumped the cost, you could theoretically balance it as a gunboat. But it would still be a nasty gunboat.

It should be more of a troop transport/fire support model. Meaning it gets its guys to where they need to get, and carries weaponry to support.

There are two problems with that.
First, it is an OP gunboat. Most of the time, it's firepower is far more important than anything you'll have inside. So you're fielding gunboat with extras, not a transport with some guns.

Second issue is price for delivery. At 115 stock/145-ish kitted, it is too expensive if your goal is to shift a bunch of units up-field. Quite often, the tank is more expensive than the unit. Furthermore, having neither fire points nor assault makes it a little unwieldy, although its speed helps a lot. Basically, one round to move 12", and then disembark the next (moving 6" or less with the only AP being on the AV10 rear, you can wind up disembarking further away from your target than the front of your hull started), and potentially assault on the turn after that. So if you want to get your short-range or melee guys into positon, you're often either putting a 145pt transport into charge range, or you're covering the distance on foot. Not as much a problem with most other DTs because they're cheaper, and/or the units have longer range.

If we don't want to use a Serpent, we can:
-Footslog (t3 4+/5+ with 18"/12" guns? Not for those costs)
-Falcon it up for more points, a HS slot per unit, and can't handle more than 6 models (lots of fun for a specialist or skirmish unit, terrible for pushing)
-Jetbikes (I'd rather my troops be actual infantry)
-Footslogging Wraiths (Decently survivable per model, but too few models, and 12" range or less without battle focus)
-Unbound with no troops
-Dark Eldar allies for a WWP and some cheap transports (and other troop options).

So we have options, but none of them sound like the setup for a good game.

If it weren't for the 'Shield shooting, the Serpent would have one main weapon and one defensive weapon. Seems about right. --
-Could cheap out at cannon/catapault for a little anti infantry close range fire
-Could go SL/SC for a good anti-infantry setup
-Could go BL or EML with the shuriCat for a heavy weapon to support the infantry
But with the 'Shield, SL/SC is just far too awesome.

So, as far as providing a DT for Eldar, I see the Serpent as both OP and overcosted, and would love to see them both fixed.

All that said, Eldar have an amazing 'Dex right now, so we'd be OK with the Serpent taking a nerf. I do hope that if they nerf it though, they nerf its gunboat ability, not its f-u-gunline durability. I like that the Eldar dex has both good shooting and durability, but what really sells their character is when they have to pick between the two each round. The Serpent gets both simultaniously (to varying degrees). It is basically the hard counter to fun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, as for nuance, the attitude of these boards has become increasingly nuanced since Serpent Spam arrived. In this thread alone, there is plenty. Its no longer the every-thing-about-it-is-stupid refrain it used to be. The reason you're probably not seeing it is because the community seems to be settling around the point that a hard nerf to its shooting -possibly slightly short of fully removing it - would bring it in line. A lot of recent posts have been quite rational and nuanced.

(Simplest fix would be 6" range.

A more complex one I'm toying with is 6" heavy 1 s7 torrent/pinning/Gets Hot.

One Use Only would do nothing to mitigate the alpha gunboat ability, although it would be a stiff nerf the rest of the game. Not a fan of that direction.
)

For a list of ten units more undercosted than the Wave Serpent in the standard BRB rules (i.e. not maelstrom only or tournament-specific missions) with no dataslates or ForgeWorld, at 1850 points:

Coteaz,
Psy Henchmen,
Pask,
Creed,
Da Finkin' Kap Ork HQ,
Conscripts,
Priests,
Annihilation Barge,
Drop Pods,
Azrael


There are still at least another dozen before the WS turn comes up.

No matter how hard you whine, the truth remains that the WS's strongest points are partial immunity to CAD limitations and the prevalence of Maelstrom-type missions.

The unit itself is far from the top 10 list of most undercosted units.

We've had 6 pages of evidence why the serp is undercosted, could you please maybe put a single sentence as to why each of those units is more undercosted than the serp?

Maybe if you want to put a bit more effort in you could also use mathematics, tournament results, opinion polls or conparisons to prove your point... if only we'd done that for the serp.

Or you can keep 'whining' about how unfair it is that people keep saying the serp is OP, that people just don't understand you, and the whole world is aginst you. "Its not fair, its not fair, its not fair!" Christ - the half term holiday is over soon and I've got to go back and deal with that adolescent attitude day in day out. I'm just going to enjoy my last two days of holiday. Im out.

Btw (last note) I'm not usually so critical of people... but the insulting attitude you use with everybody who doesn't agree with you in every thread is just rude and unnecessary.

I am not OP! I'm just big boned.

Well... I have actually never had too much of an issue with these. I run an assault heavy list, so as long as I can catch them with DPs, Screamers or something similar, I can pop them pretty easy. I will say that if the opponent is a douche wagon and takes 5 or 6, they can be a bit overwhelming. lol

But isn't this always how 40k has worked? There are always some units that are powerful and very difficult to deal with. The goal is to find ways to beat them. For me, deepstrike, quick assault units, forcing them to jink.... they are beatable, but I agree... they are powerful.

morgoth wrote:
For a list of ten units more undercosted than the Wave Serpent in the standard BRB rules (i.e. not maelstrom only or tournament-specific missions) with no dataslates or ForgeWorld, at 1850 points:

Coteaz,
Psy Henchmen, Are these still possible? This is an honest question, since I haven't seen the new inquisition book. I agree that they were silly in the last GK book though.
Pask, Assuming a Punisher, he requires a minimum investment of 335pts - that's with the cheapest possible Russ and before you add and sponsons or other upgrades to him or his wingman. I really struggle to see how he's as underpriced as the WS.
Creed, Um... why? He's a decent Force Multiplier, but he more than doubles the price of a CCS and is still just as fragile as the standard Company Commander.
Da Finkin' Kap Ork HQ, Eh? Is an extra warlord trait really that overpowered? Sorry, but no way is that more underpriced than the WS.
Conscripts, You really think these are more undercosted than a WS? Again, why?
Priests, Maybe slightly, but nowhere near the degree of the WS.
Annihilation Barge, No objections here.
Drop Pods, Again, I'd disagree that these are more undercosted than the WS, but I certainly agree that they're undercosted.
Azrael Why?

Thanks for providing the list, but is there any chance you could give your reasoning behind some of these? I mean, I can at least understand Annihilation Barges and Drop Pods, but several of the others really have me confused. e.g. Most threads I've seen seemed to agree that Creed is actually overpriced. So, it would be useful to hear why you believe the opposite to be true.

There are still at least another dozen before the WS turn comes up.

No matter how hard you whine, the truth remains that the WS's strongest points are partial immunity to CAD limitations and the prevalence of Maelstrom-type missions. Again, that's just one problem - it's not the only one.

The unit itself is far from the top 10 list of most undercosted units. I think many others will still disagree with you on that one.

The WS isn't just in the top 10, it's in the top 3 OP units.

Oh dear, conscripts and Creed being more overpowered than wave serpents?

Yeah, there's no point arguing about the power level of wave serpents when the same person feels Creed is too strong. Morgoth must have thought Creed was super bonkers broken with the 5th ed book, because he took a pretty serious hit from the nerf bat in this edition.

Bharring wrote:
While I did select 'undercosted', I think it is more accurate to say it is both OP *and* overcosted.

It is op. Look t other posts for that at the moment.

But I don't think the problem is that it simply costs too little. Sure, if you bumped the cost, you could theoretically balance it as a gunboat. But it would still be a nasty gunboat.

It should be more of a troop transport/fire support model. Meaning it gets its guys to where they need to get, and carries weaponry to support.

There are two problems with that.
First, it is an OP gunboat. Most of the time, it's firepower is far more important than anything you'll have inside. So you're fielding gunboat with extras, not a transport with some guns.

Second issue is price for delivery. At 115 stock/145-ish kitted, it is too expensive if your goal is to shift a bunch of units up-field. Quite often, the tank is more expensive than the unit. Furthermore, having neither fire points nor assault makes it a little unwieldy, although its speed helps a lot. Basically, one round to move 12", and then disembark the next (moving 6" or less with the only AP being on the AV10 rear, you can wind up disembarking further away from your target than the front of your hull started), and potentially assault on the turn after that. So if you want to get your short-range or melee guys into positon, you're often either putting a 145pt transport into charge range, or you're covering the distance on foot. Not as much a problem with most other DTs because they're cheaper, and/or the units have longer range.

If we don't want to use a Serpent, we can:
-Footslog (t3 4+/5+ with 18"/12" guns? Not for those costs)
-Falcon it up for more points, a HS slot per unit, and can't handle more than 6 models (lots of fun for a specialist or skirmish unit, terrible for pushing)
-Jetbikes (I'd rather my troops be actual infantry)
-Footslogging Wraiths (Decently survivable per model, but too few models, and 12" range or less without battle focus)
-Unbound with no troops
-Dark Eldar allies for a WWP and some cheap transports (and other troop options).

So we have options, but none of them sound like the setup for a good game.

If it weren't for the 'Shield shooting, the Serpent would have one main weapon and one defensive weapon. Seems about right. --
-Could cheap out at cannon/catapault for a little anti infantry close range fire
-Could go SL/SC for a good anti-infantry setup
-Could go BL or EML with the shuriCat for a heavy weapon to support the infantry
But with the 'Shield, SL/SC is just far too awesome.

So, as far as providing a DT for Eldar, I see the Serpent as both OP and overcosted, and would love to see them both fixed.

All that said, Eldar have an amazing 'Dex right now, so we'd be OK with the Serpent taking a nerf. I do hope that if they nerf it though, they nerf its gunboat ability, not its f-u-gunline durability. I like that the Eldar dex has both good shooting and durability, but what really sells their character is when they have to pick between the two each round. The Serpent gets both simultaniously (to varying degrees). It is basically the hard counter to fun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, as for nuance, the attitude of these boards has become increasingly nuanced since Serpent Spam arrived. In this thread alone, there is plenty. Its no longer the every-thing-about-it-is-stupid refrain it used to be. The reason you're probably not seeing it is because the community seems to be settling around the point that a hard nerf to its shooting -possibly slightly short of fully removing it - would bring it in line. A lot of recent posts have been quite rational and nuanced.

(Simplest fix would be 6" range.

A more complex one I'm toying with is 6" heavy 1 s7 torrent/pinning/Gets Hot.

One Use Only would do nothing to mitigate the alpha gunboat ability, although it would be a stiff nerf the rest of the game. Not a fan of that direction.
)

This. I said this more or less a page or 2 ago, but I think you explained it much better.