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I realize CSMs are still regarded as a mid or lower tier army by many competitive players. Given the fact a CSM player recently placed 10th at NOVA, and the new options available with 7th and FW, is it time to rethink CSMs and the way they are used?

I am starting to see some new army builds that aren't widely used, but could actually make a lot of sense for more competitive players. They address some specific challenges that have held back CSM forces in the past, and add some new dimensions to what you can do with the army.

- FW Chaos Armor: Armies making use of Sicaran Battle Tanks, Fire Raptors, Relic Predators and Rapier weapons platforms from the new IA. They have a lot of long range firepower that is high strength and high shot. More importantly, they are not very expensive compared to other options (i.e. Sicarans don't really cost much more than Predators, and give you those high-performance autocannons).

- Summoning Armies: Armies that can summon, especially ones that summon Horrors (which add warp charges for further summoning). It's not hard to see the potential, as well as the downsides.

- Helbrute Formations: Armies making use of massed Helbrutes, especially ones that are protected by squads of cultists or acting as deepstriking fire platforms. They can be expensive, but add a lot in terms of firepower.

- FW Renegades: Armies acting with the new Renegades list as allies, which are bringing plague zombies without Typhus and more cheap tanks / heavy weapons.

I am sure this isn't a complete list of the new ways you can field Chaos armies, I am really wondering if there's something competitive to be found there.

Completely agree. With what I've seen mentioned about IA:13, plus the data slates I actually own (cypher, be'lakor, hellbrutes), I personally think CSM (even without deamons and renegades) are in a MUCH better position than they were half a year ago, and perceptions about them will begin to change soon, especially once IA:13 has main scale release.

That being said, nothing short of a complete overhaul of the dex will fix the shocking internal balance issues.

Good questions that I wish I had more answers to, but alas the only knowledge I have on IA13 is what i've been able to glean from threads on here. The only thing I'll say here, is that while summoning may be strong, summoning horrors is most definitely not. Even if you summon three units of horrors turn 1 that's only 3 warp charges, or half of a summon, that you've added to your dice pool. You're better off summoning faster, tougher or killier, things: Hounds, Plague Drones or Daemonettes respectively.

I do think there are some combos that are going to be strong. I'm going to see about allying some rapiers, a sicaran, or some renegades into my Daemons as soon as I can get my hands on IA13. A really fast assault army with just enough shooting (as in I have pretty much zero at the moment) seems like it would A.) be fun and B.) might just be decently powerful.

Don't forget about the old tricks like infiltrating 20 mellee marines + aid from Cypher and chosen.

 koooaei wrote:
Don't forget about the old tricks like infiltrating 20 mellee marines + aid from Cypher and chosen.

Yes. CSM infiltration has always been an underused tactic. It's something you can get from Cypher, a Slaanesh Lord on a mount, Huron, Ahriman and any warlord with the right trait.

Combined with some of the other new items, proper use of infiltration could be a huge game changer for CSMs. It could address the delivery issues for assault units in a big way. Here are some of the ways I am thinking about.

- With Dreadclaw drop pods, they can arrive turn one and deposit troops anywhere on the board turn 2. This can include any troops plus the new Relic Dreadnought thing in the IA book (not sure about Maulerfiends, but damn, wouldn't that be nice.)

- With Helbrute formations, you can also drop a big firepoint in your opponents backline to compliment your infiltrating troops.

In either case, it's not quite the same as an alpha strike, it's more like a beta strike. You have a lot of delivery options for troops in range for cc, but they only get there on the second turn. It changes the kinds of troops you would want to infiltrate. Like, infiltrating CSM Chosen with full plasma might be nice, but is it as nice as infiltrating MoK CSMs ready to charge on turn 2 with those same 5 Chosen dropping behind the opponent to shoot them up before the charge.

 techsoldaten wrote:

- FW Renegades: Armies acting with the new Renegades list as allies, which are bringing plague zombies without Typhus and more cheap tanks / heavy weapons.

Careful here. The arch-demagogue must be your warlord from your primary detachment in order to field plague zombies via renegades. Similar deal with renegade spawn. I've been looking into renegades as allies for my csm's but these pesky restrictions keep cropping up.

JubbJubbz wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

- FW Renegades: Armies acting with the new Renegades list as allies, which are bringing plague zombies without Typhus and more cheap tanks / heavy weapons.

Careful here. The arch-demagogue must be your warlord from your primary detachment in order to field plague zombies via renegades. Similar deal with renegade spawn. I've been looking into renegades as allies for my csm's but these pesky restrictions keep cropping up.

Wondering about the implications here. Couldn't you take a min-sized Renegade force as the primary detachment, then take a larger CSM force that takes advantage of the cheap spawn, zombies and armor from the primary?

I don't think it's going to matter to some people which detachment is the primary, but are there other implications I am not seeing?

Not really, the only biggie for me is that the t3 5+ guy with random Ld is your warlord. The way the infantry seems set up you really need him around your infantry squads to make use of things like command vox's and banners. Will be tough to make good use of him while not 'gift wrapping slay the warlord for your opponent'

EDIT:
One more thing I forgot. The infernal relic rule only allows primary detachment and allied detachments to take them. Allies need a technomancer to even have one. So it seems a non-primary cad wouldn't be able to take relics at all unless i'm missing something. As allies the HQ restriction is too much for me, none of them are good except the sorc and he has to have malefic which kinda writes your army list for you.

Another downside would be losing warlord traits such as Hurons.

Tbf though you still have access to almost everything in the renegades list aside from spawn as troops, zombies, marauders (is that what the unaligned ones are called?) And maybe a few others by the sound of it. You'd still get covenents, hordes of cheaper than guard troops, artillery, vehicles, cheap spawn in elites, mutants etc.
Why not take mutants instead of zombies? Yeh you lose 4+ fnp, but can give them fleet (cov slaanesh on attached demagogue), shred on charge (cov khorne on champ), rage (combat drugs on enforcer), and don't suffer from snp. Then make them fearless by attaching a juggerlord with the AoBF or a nurgle lord with Black Mace, and you have yourself a far better unit than the zombies, in which the opponent WILL be wasting shots at killing 3pt models to stop the chaos lord.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Another downside would be losing warlord traits such as Hurons.
..You'd still get covenents, hordes of cheaper than guard troops, artillery, vehicles, cheap spawn in elites, mutants etc....

Just to be clear, I don't think you can take spawn as elites. It says under their heading they may only be taken from the Master of Renegades rule. Seems like the 'Mutant Overlord' overrides that allowing you one unit of spawn but elsewise it seems you cannot take them.

Why not take mutants instead of zombies? Yeh you lose 4+ fnp, but can give them fleet (cov slaanesh on attached demagogue), shred on charge (cov khorne on champ), rage (combat drugs on enforcer), and don't suffer from snp. Then make them fearless by attaching a juggerlord with the AoBF or a nurgle lord with Black Mace, and you have yourself a far better unit than the zombies, in which the opponent WILL be wasting shots at killing 3pt models to stop the chaos lord.

Mutants are more of an offensive unit, drowning their target in weak attacks. They don't have the staying power. Zombies are all about staying power. 4+ FnP on a 3pt Fearless model that comes in squads of 50 is about as durable a unit as anything. Mutants without saves will evaporate and fail morale checks without an expensive IC. A beatstick HQ like the juggerlord has much better escorts than being slowed down by a foot blob. I think buffing these 3 pt mob units is the wrong way to go about it. Keep em cheap and bring more units. Bumping the squad up by ~50 pts for shred and rage seems inferior to more bodies.

I altered my list to create a Night Lords force. It does exceedingly well against the common power armies.

Imperial Knights better not stand too close to one another either when I play them. I included a Black Legion Biker commander who uses the Eye of Night. Perfect for getting behind the shields and ganking those big boys or just forcing them to turn their shields!

The army is 2 large Nurgle Raptor units, 3 separate mutilators, 3 separate Obliterators, 3 marines units in some wheeled Dirge Casters (ahem...rhinos), and and a Sorcerer. N list in front of me but that's about it.