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Well, GW has an ew website that they spent appalingly huge amounts of money on. Surely THAT means they're growing, right?

Right, guys?

Its a very ew website. I think the chairman getting his wife to build it wasn't money very well spent.

It was for the chairmans wife

@Toofast. I don't bother looking too much into the financial side of wargaming, because it mostly bores me, but I'm sure you're correct.

However I'd like to point out that -and excuse me if I'm stating the obvious here- this decline is not solely a result of poor management, but a simple fact of business in any industry: rising competition.
GW enjoyed a golden age while they remained unchallenged in wargaming. A lot of rival companies have sprung up, some serous challengers amongst them. So a lot of that lost profit, downsizing and decline was an inevitable occurrence, i.e. not a result of anything GW did wrong. If their accounting department is any better than their PR department, they may have even prepared for it...

 zlayer77 wrote:

3 They are whiteknights who are in denial, and still think 40k is a "GREAT GAME", when in fact it is a miniatures collection hobby...

Provide me a factual source that proves Warhammer 40,000 isn´t a great miniaturegame ( which means it can be played enjoyably and to have fun with it, while providing a nice gaming experience. ) Me and hundreds of thousands of other players are having a fun gaming experience with it on a weekly, even daily basis. And in the end it´s a subjective matter.

So yeah, what you said is meaningless and has no bearing on pretty much anything.

 Blacksails wrote:


Like much of Runic's argumentation, no, there are no statistics to back this claim up.

And the only thing to back up yours ( and many others ) is a single sales report and a chairmans preamble, both which actually mean nothing in the end.

 Aesop the God Awful wrote:

 RunicFIN wrote:
I don´t see money as a reason not to recommend anyone not to do anything.

People more often than not can afford Warhammer 40,000, and/or are willing to spend on it aswell. Only if someones requirement is "it shouldn´t cost too much" - is it a good reason.

But what advantage does 40K have on other (cheaper) games, that makes 40K worth taking over them?

Many of the things regarding a wargame are very subjective. Most beginners make their choice based on the universe, or the models as they usually lack the gaming experience. I believe everyone should go for what they like, and if they happen to be interested in Warhammer 40,000 for example above others, then it can be easily recommended for them.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Also, do you have statistics to back up your assertion that money isn't important to people?

Have never claimed such a thing in the first place so don´t know why I would need statistics. If someone says they got the money and they´re willing to spend, then there should be no issue.

-

Some golden comedy going on here with some of the doom predictions, I can´t fathom what kind of enclosure from the outside world it requires to come into these conclusions about GW going down and the playerbase shrinking. Declined sales are also partially due to people not needing to buy new miniatures all of the time, as the large portion of the playerbase already owns quite the collection. Warhammer 40,000 has the largest, oldest playerbase around, that also makes way for secondhand markets; yet another reason all purchases of GW miniatures don´t translate to GW income. And then there´s the manufacturers of alternatives, and also recasters that bring their own spice into the soup. These are all facts and all of them play a role of impact on sales of new miniatures.

In any case, you anti-GW folk have fun with your delusional doomsday theories now. Keep believing GW is going down just because there´s more competitors out there than before. Such a normal scenario in business, and yet some of you fail to grasp it doesn´t mean a companys doom, especially if said company is the top dog in said industry.

But I´m sure continously writing on the forums that GW is going down and 40K is dying will make it so. Obviously this logic is driving some users on a subconsious level.

The rest of us can enjoy the actual reality, inwhich Games Workshop is the largest and most overall successfull wargaming company in existence, while Warhammer 40,000 is the most played, widely spread wargame with the largest playerbase around. <3

Just like TSR, top dog of the RPG industry.

They are definitely in decline.

Whether it kills them or not remains to be seen.

RunicFin, you said GW is growing. All evidence points to the opposite.
Unless a person is delusional, they'll admit that GW is declining. What's in question is where that decline stops. Do they level out at a new normal, fall to the bottom of the heap or go under. That, I can't answer, but the decline is happening whether you like to admit it or not.

 RunicFIN wrote:


And the only thing to back up yours ( and many others ) is a single sales report and a chairmans preamble, both which actually mean nothing in the end.

 RunicFIN wrote:

I guess for some the illusion just can´t be broken.

 Blacksails wrote:
quote shenanigans

Okay, I´m judging by your above described quoting that you actually believe a sales report and a chairmans preamble that states they don´t do market research ( while they still obviously do it ) are meaningful. If you however are aware that even years of declined sales really don´t mean much in a large companys lifeline, and are aware that the chairmans preamble is basically propaganda for investors, then I don´t know what you´re trying to say. ( Your message to me implies that you hold both of these 2 items as some sort of meaningful evidence, while neither of them actually is such on the grand scale of things. Yeah, they had reduced sales, and they´ve had them before numerous times. And overall they have been on the rise for the last 15 years. )

 MWHistorian wrote:
RunicFin, you said GW is growing. All evidence points to the opposite.
Unless a person is delusional, they'll admit that GW is declining. What's in question is where that decline stops. Do they level out at a new normal, fall to the bottom of the heap or go under. That, I can't answer, but the decline is happening whether you like to admit it or not.

You do have quite the habit of either deliberately misinterpreting what is being said or being unable to comprehend it. Never said GW is growing ( or source please ) just said their sales have increased, which is a fact as they just launched the new tyranid kits ( of which the "drop pod" has sold extremely well ) and the huge amount of hobby kits. Next to that the upcoming starter box & BA Codex will most likely increase sales further. Whether you like to admit it or not.

Companies that continually have increased sales over a duration of 20 years are the rarest of the rare. Doesn´t make a company unsuccessfull to have reduced sales. However, it makes a company successfull to bounce back up time after time and to stay in business.



"GW going down yo."

 RunicFIN wrote:

Okay, I´m judging by your above described quoting that you actually believe a sales report and a chairmans preamble that states they don´t do market research ( while they still obviously do it ) are meaningful. If you however are aware that even years of declined sales really don´t mean much in a large companys lifeline, and are aware that the chairmans preamble is basically propaganda for investors, then I don´t know what you´re trying to say. ( Your message to me implies that you hold both of these 2 items as some sort of meaningful evidence, while neither of them actually is such on the grand scale of things. Yeah, they had reduced sales, and they´ve had them before numerous times. And overall they have been on the rise for the last 15 years. )

 RunicFIN wrote:
I guess for some the illusion just can´t be broken.

Maybe it's a language thing. Do you mean gw have more stuff available for sale, or they are making more sales transactions?

Herzlos wrote:
Maybe it's a language thing. Do you mean gw have more stuff available for sale, or they are making more sales transactions?

Their new products have increased their sales on a global scale, and at the same time they have more stuff available for sale for the beforementioned reason.

Aside from sales, I´m glad to see some completely new moves from GW ( well, new as in "this hasn´t happened in some time" ) as they publish free rules and improve their starter boxes to include actual kits with options now ( atleast the SW one was such, I think I read somewhere the same goes for BA. ) Perhaps they are taking a bit of a new direction. Also "fixing" the Tyranids was pretty nice of them, although it´s obvious it´s just asmuch a move to make money.

Aside from that Codex balance is now better than ever ( albeit game balance still needs a lot of work ) and they have all been brought up to date soon, with Necrons being last. We also have the best edition so far afaic ( I´ve played 62 games of 7.ed now. ) Things are looking pretty good.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

Better watch out there, you´re about to create an infinite vortex of meaningless quoting. The most dangerous out of all vortexes.

 RunicFIN wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
Maybe it's a language thing. Do you mean gw have more stuff available for sale, or they are making more sales transactions?

Their new products have increased their sales on a global scale, and at the same time they have more stuff available for sale for the beforementioned reason.

Aside from sales, I´m glad to see some completely new moves from GW ( well, new as in "this hasn´t happened in some time" ) as they publish free rules and improve their starter boxes to include actual kits with options now ( atleast the SW one was such, I think I read somewhere the same goes for BA. ) Perhaps they are taking a bit of a new direction. Also "fixing" the Tyranids was pretty nice of them, although it´s obvious it´s just asmuch a move to make money.

Aside from that Codex balance is now better than ever ( albeit game balance still needs a lot of work ) and they have all been brought up to date soon, with Necrons being last. We also have the best edition so far afaic ( I´ve played 62 games of 7.ed now. ) Things are looking pretty good.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

Better watch out there, you´re about to create an infinite vortex of meaningless quoting. The most dangerous out of all vortexes.

Increased sales? Um...no. Go back and read the financial report. They're losing sales, not gaining them.

 MWHistorian wrote:

Increased sales? Um...no. Go back and read the financial report. They're losing sales, not gaining them.

You talking about the one published on 29.7.2014?

 RunicFIN wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:


Like much of Runic's argumentation, no, there are no statistics to back this claim up.

And the only thing to back up yours ( and many others ) is a single sales report and a chairmans preamble, both which actually mean nothing in the end.

"Yeah, well, I've got no evidence, but you've only got some evidence, and that's like, totally the same thing. Besides, your evidence is just a legal document that will remain on record for years to come and has criminal offences attached to it should it be misrepresented, that's totes meaningless!"



Haven't seen you post in ages runic, keep on keeping on dude, you're great value!

So Runic gets caught in a lie, and claims GW is growing?! please point out where in the latest financial report backs that up.

 Musashi363 wrote:
So Runic gets caught in a lie, and claims GW is growing?! please point out where in the latest financial report backs that up.

Except I never said such a thing, and already stated that in a previous post ( after MWHistorian went onto commit his deliberate misinterpretation number 34876. ) Double reading fail?

Also the financial report he is referring to is from before Space Wolves, the new Tyranid kits, the new hobby kits, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, and the new starter kit. We´ll see about the next one.

Funny thing is:

By your logic ( everyone who thinks the following ) GW is doomed and going down and whatever other nonsense when they have reduced sales. Applying this same logic, any positive future sales report will mean they´re ontop of the world. If you take a moment to consider this scenario applied the other way around, maybe you will finally see how idiotic your logic truly is.

 Azreal13 wrote:
a legal document that will remain on record for years to come and has criminal offences attached to it should it be misrepresented, that's totes meaningless!"

You should really learn a bit more about chairmans preamble as a document and what is okay to write in such a document. Obviously you have no clue. I haven´t see one chairmans preamble, ever, inwhich things aren´t smoothed out for investors or the company presenting itself in a confident light.

I thought you were a bit mode aware of how the world works Azreal, but I guess you´re pseudointellectual afterall. And if under a month is a long time of not posting to you then I don´t know, I guess you spend most of your hours just browsing DakkaDakka and being all anti-gw.

I'm more referring to the hard financial data, but keep tilting at windmills.

 Azreal13 wrote:
I'm more referring to the hard financial data, but keep tilting at windmills.

Just read what I wrote above and continue to refer to your 5 month old sales report until the end of time for all I care. Keep believing the most successfull wargaming company in history is going down.

Keep on the good fight, Azreal13 ( did you typo Azrael btw? )

People, people don't show Runic to truth. You say what happened last time someone broke down wall. He got so up set when I parroted his rude post, to him he couldn't control his anger about a GAME OF TOYS. That the Mod need to wipe the text of him post right after. We should all be nice, and let him know how much of a .... cute little child he is and we understand it is the reason for his misinformed belive. I mean calling people names is the sign you belve in what your saying right, right?

 RunicFIN wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
I'm more referring to the hard financial data, but keep tilting at windmills.

Just read what I wrote above and continue to refer to your 5 month old sales report until the end of time for all I care. Keep believing the most successfull wargaming company in history is going down.

Keep on the good fight, Azreal13 ( did you typo Azrael btw? )

No, I'll keep referring to the 5 month old and 11 month old reports, both of which painted similar pictures, and the multiple previous reports which only showed growth in the most tenuous sense (cause more than last year is always better right? It in no way fails to account for above inflation price rises or cost cutting to mask flat sales performance?) at least until January when the next interim report is due, and then I'll adjust my interpretation as that information suggests.

Oh, and no, my username refers back to an old multiplayer handle I used to use, inspired by, but not a copy of Azrael.

Noir wrote:
People, people don't show Runic to truth. You say what happened last time someone broke down wall. He got so up set when I parroted his rude post, to him he couldn't control his anger about a GAME OF TOYS. That the Mod need to wipe the text of him post right after. We should all be nice, and let him know how much of a .... cute little child he is and we understand it is the reason for his misinformed belive. I mean calling people names is the sign you belve in what your saying right, right?

Actually I just showed my disappointed in a calm manner, but it was unpolite. I would´ve thought you left the "you´re mad!" -strategy at middleschool. But guess not. Infact what you are writing in the above post I find childish.

Also, do express this "truth" of yours, thanks.

 Azreal13 wrote:
No, I'll keep referring to the 5 month old and 11 month old reports, both of which painted similar pictures, and the multiple previous reports which only showed growth in the most tenuous sense (cause more than last year is always better right? It in no way fails to account for above inflation price rises or cost cutting to mask flat sales performance?) at least until January when the next interim report is due, and then I'll adjust my interpretation as that information suggests.

I can´t recall if you´re one of those people who thinks reduced sales is the end of the world. I´ll give you the benefit of doubt. What would increased sales mean for you?

Just asking to see if you´re one of those people who will make an excuse if that happens, still fueling the hate train of if you´re actually neutral instead of welded-shut-biased.

In essence what I´m saying is:

-GW´s sales will have increased after the last financial reports due to the vast amount of new product, some of them ( especially the Tyranid drop pod ) having been reported selling really well. This is true.
-Warhammer 40,000 is still an enjoyable game, with the largest playerbase in it´s field. This matter is subjective, and can therefore be true and false.
-Games Workshop is the largest, most successfull wargaming company in existence. This is true.

If someone interprets any of these differently, they can only blame themselves. I guess some want to argue against these facts because it angers them that they´re the truth for whatever reason.

 RunicFIN wrote:

 Musashi363 wrote:
So Runic gets caught in a lie, and claims GW is growing?! please point out where in the latest financial report backs that up.

Except I never said such a thing, and already stated that in a previous post ( after MWHistorian went onto commit his deliberate misinterpretation number 34876. ) Double reading fail?

Also the financial report he is referring to is from before Space Wolves, the new Tyranid kits, the new hobby kits, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, and the new starter kit. We´ll see about the next one.

.

Well, actually, you did say that.

Their new products have increased their sales on a global scale, and at the same time they have more stuff available for sale for the beforementioned reason.

So, again, you're caught lying or you're painfully ignorant about what a sales report actually is.
The funny thing is, the bad sales reports were during the Space Marine Codex (their top sellers) Imperial Knights (a huge success) and a new edition. If you think SW and a tyranid giant testicle are going to top those, then you're mistaken.

 RunicFIN wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
No, I'll keep referring to the 5 month old and 11 month old reports, both of which painted similar pictures, and the multiple previous reports which only showed growth in the most tenuous sense (cause more than last year is always better right? It in no way fails to account for above inflation price rises or cost cutting to mask flat sales performance?) at least until January when the next interim report is due, and then I'll adjust my interpretation as that information suggests.

I can´t recall if you´re one of those people who thinks reduced sales is the end of the world. I´ll give you the benefit of doubt. What would increased sales mean for you?

Just asking to see if you´re one of those people who will make an excuse if that happens, still fueling the hate train of if you´re actually neutral instead of welded-shut-biased.

So you're asking me for my hypothetical reaction to a hypothetical situation?

Nah, we'll leave that for 6 weeks and then have a real discussion based on real facts.

My ego is not so big that if they were to show increased revenue and profit which do not have to be linked to increased or decreased sales, I wouldn't be willing to take that on board.

However, as I've never predicted the imminent doom of GW, I don't see how one could say I was categorically wrong. Most of my criticism of GW is couched in the fact that they do so much stuff in a sub-optimal way, which I consider loses them sales or undermines the quality of their product (and therefore my personal enjoyment of them.) I will continue to criticise anything I view to be like this, but GW don't have to be losing money to be less than they could be.

EDIT

A new edition of 40K and the update of their top selling line weren't enough to turn their last year around, a Tyranid Drop Pod, even one that breaks all records for a Tyranid kit is unlikely to turn this one around if needed.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Their new products have increased their sales on a global scale, and at the same time they have more stuff available for sale for the beforementioned reason.

You accused me of saying "GW has grown" before, and I said I talked about sales. Now you quote me for saying what I said I said, sales. Sales do not equal growth.

It´s you who is painfully ignorant. Can you stop trying already since you´re just making yourself look worse with every attempt you take to try and put words in my mouth/deliberately misinterpret me?

 MWHistorian wrote:

So, again, you're caught lying or you're painfully ignorant about what a sales report actually is.
The funny thing is, the bad sales reports were during the Space Marine Codex (their top sellers) Imperial Knights (a huge success) and a new edition. If you think SW and a tyranid giant testicle are going to top those, then you're mistaken.

Proof/source.

Where did you get the data that GW have increased their sales, though? Don't tell me it's anecdotal, because it's very hypocritical of you to ask people of proof/source without providing your own.

 Azreal13 wrote:

However, as I've never predicted the imminent doom of GW, I don't see how one could say I was categorically wrong. Most of my criticism of GW is couched in the fact that they do so much stuff in a sub-optimal way, which I consider loses them sales or undermines the quality of their product (and therefore my personal enjoyment of them.) I will continue to criticise anything I view to be like this, but GW don't have to be losing money to be less than they could be.

I can appreaciate this bit, and I agree about GW doing things the suboptimal way, many of them.

 heartserenade wrote:
Where did you get the data that GW have increased their sales, though? Don't tell me it's anecdotal, because it's very hypocritical of you to ask people of proof/source without providing your own.

Send me a PM when the next report from GW comes out and after you have, with your own eyes, seen it. I´ll let you in on a not-so-big secret.

Here´s once again, just to make things clear and completely behead the disease that is MWHistorians word-bending:

RunicFIN wrote:In essence what I´m saying is:

-GW´s sales will have increased after the last financial reports due to the vast amount of new product, some of them ( especially the Tyranid drop pod ) having been reported selling really well. This is true.
-Warhammer 40,000 is still an enjoyable game, with the largest playerbase in it´s field. This matter is subjective, and can therefore be true and false.
-Games Workshop is the largest, most successfull wargaming company in existence. This is true.

If someone interprets any of these differently, they can only blame themselves.

TSR 'grew' right before it fell. They unleashed a ton of stuff. And then 'Boom.' They were gone.

I'm not saying that's what's going to happen to GW. But many releases does not equate to more success. As I said before, I think GW is falling, but I don't know where that fall may end. Imminent doom? Maybe, maybe not. All I'm saying is that if they continue as they are with no change for the better, then they will go under. It's like a plane in a descent. he may be really high up, but sooner or later he has to pull up or he's going to hit the ground.

 MWHistorian wrote:
TSR 'grew' right before it fell. They unleashed a ton of stuff. And then 'Boom.' They were gone.

I'm not saying that's what's going to happen to GW. But many releases does not equate to more success. As I said before, I think GW is falling, but I don't know where that fall may end. Imminent doom? Maybe, maybe not. All I'm saying is that if they continue as they are with no change for the better, then they will go under. It's like a plane in a descent. he may be really high up, but sooner or later he has to pull up or he's going to hit the ground.

Can I have the proof/source for when you stated that GW´s new products after their last report haven´t increased their sales?