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Reading DakkaDakka and the frequent posts of GW customers has contributed to a theory I'm beggining to believe. I perceive a difference in how people relate to GW and this hobby and their ability to play at a GW Hobby shop. I don't know if GW subtley indoctrinates people to a certain way of thinking. GW would like you to believe they are the be all, end all be all of Tabletop Wargaming. People new to the hobby often are indoctrinated into this line of thinking. I also think this contributes to the vitriol spewed by their critics is some sort of backlash when they break away from it.

Personally, I've never stepped into an official GW Store, It's not intentional, there has never been one within a reasonable drive. I don't think there has ever been one in my home state for that matter. (Just googled it, it's a 3 hour and 30 mintue drive to the nearest store in Greenwich Village, New York) I learned about 40K in a local comic book shop, and started playing in another comic book shop. As a consequence I imagine, I don't see GW Shops as an important part of the hobby. I routinely see the opposite belief held, even if it is not intentional.

When GW cuts back gaming space, staff, stock, etc.. in a GW shop,someone will post about it, with the belief it is iindicative of the health of the hobby, and GW, as a whole.
Closing a GW store is met with echoes of doom and gloom. When there were copies of Space Hulk left on the shelf, Space Hulk was decried a failure because there were copies still on the shelf at the GW store.

To be honest, I guess I can kind of see where the belief comes from, but I just don't buy it.

I hear stories about GW stores, targeting only high value locations, having limited gaming space, while the average hobby store I've been to has 4-8+ tables.
GW store, ALL GW, ALL the time, while the average hobby store has a variety of games.
GW store frowns on anything other than GW models on the field, Hobby Shop doesn't really care if you use other models.
GW store employees are sales people first and mabye a hobbyist second. Hobby shop employee is a Gaming Geek who most likely loves the game.

There was one in Holyoke MA and Boston right in Harvard Square in Cambridge. There used to be one in Manchester CT...at one point I had 2 stores within a 20 minute drive.

*edit* I should probably read the OP the whole way through next time.

In Australia and America GW stores are meaningless, the belief of any value they provide is almost entirely down to the UK demographic where there is a GW in every small town.

It also comes down to the general perception of them 5 years ago rather than what they are now.

They used to all have 3 or 4 employees, 6 or so tables, open every day with good hours, encourage in store gaming and be in high foot traffic locations. Then the one man stores happened.

More of this perception of them comes from GW HQ themselves, they have repeatedly stated that their hobby centers are their best source of advertising and is instrumental in their continued success. Somehow they don't see the move out of high traffic areas, halving of square footage and slashing of employees and store hours to hurt this plan at all.

The thing is... GW does do some amazing things for the hobby. LoTR and The Hobbit are renowned for their tight and well written ruleset. Too bad no one plays them in my area.

What sets GW and warhammer apart from any other game is the sheer amount of fluff out there. There really is a palpable sense of a vast endless universe to anyone inside the 40k hobby. Just check Black Library. You can argue X-wing for Star Wars and their amazing extended universe, but I ask.. Does Fantasy Flight Games produce and manage all of that fluff and canon?

 Pyeatt wrote:
The thing is... GW does do some amazing things for the hobby.

Not arguing that. I'm actually a huge fan of most of GW's games. I just think people read too much importance into the value of the official GW Stores.

To be honest, OP, I really don't understand the point of your post, unless you're griping because there's none close to you. Are you complaining because a store owned and funded by GW only wants GW in their store? Let me know what happens if Privateer Press mans up and makes their own store franchise. Pretty sure it's going to be PP games everywhere inside. MAYBE a small token outside source game.

I'm actually not griping about GW at all. I'm trying to illustrate that people who play in them tend to put an overabundance on the value and importance of actual GW stores on their role in the hobby.

 adamsouza wrote:
I just think people read too much importance into the value of the official GW Stores.

OOOOOHHhhhhh I feel like a goober. I got you now. My nearest GW store is 1.2 hours away. So I only go there for things my FLGS doesnt have. There's another thread floating around about annoyances with FLGS. Guess what the ABSOLUTE MOST POPULAR is. Special order models, either not coming, coming late, not being told about it, or something similar.

At a GW store, they have almost everything for 40k and fantasy. And if you absolutely have to order something, they're almost always on the money about notifying you and so forth. Very different environment than an FLGS.

 Pyeatt wrote:
if Privateer Press mans up and makes their own store franchise

I highly doubt that will ever happen. PP have the good sense to simply work with FLGS to expand their product, where as GW are sinking about half of there revenue (maybe more now that it's dropping so fast) into keeping open a ton of stores that simply aren't working anymore.

When you're playing a game, you want casual. When you're trying to spend money, you want professional. And they're heavily encouraging "professional salesmen". That's the importance I place in them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
if Privateer Press mans up and makes their own store franchise

I highly doubt that will ever happen. PP have the good sense to simply work with FLGS to expand their product, where as GW are sinking about half of there revenue (maybe more now that it's dropping so fast) into keeping open a ton of stores that simply aren't working anymore.

My point is... It's their store. They own it. If another game brand bought their own store, you'd better believe it's at least 95% going to be stocked with their stuff.

I used to have a local GW when I lived in a much more populated area near Toronto. I don't think I went to it more than once a year though. Gaming seemed to be about being in people's houses and events at local convention type things.

My assessment about GW having some troubles doesn't have anything to do with their GW stores near me, but their decline in revenue in their financial reports. Which I happen to think is weather-able.

And more will be coming as when they convert more and more of their stores to single employee operations. The thing is, so what if their revenue for a retail store drops (say 40%) if their costs to run the store are more than halved by the transition? It just means they need to keep opening them and trying to find the right combination of employee and location. If they can open more stores that each operate at a better margin than the previous multi-employee model, then they can keep more of their money.

I have seen GW retail in Canada really take a hit though. Especially among independent stores that have other options. It's very hard to compete with American online discounters that can get the product to people's door for very close to what a local retailer would have to pay at trade discount.

Just think about that prospect from an independent store owner's perspective. Would you stock a product that your customers can get for your own wholesale price, shipped right to their door? All the while every dollar that goes to GW is one less dollar that you can use to negotiate better volume discounts with your distributors for the real money maker of your store: card games.

I think GW will continue to have flat revenue with higher prices and declining units sold while the rest of the market grows around them, diminishing their market share over time. Those who want to keep enjoying GW's products will still be able to do so (with every new release pushing the price up further and further) without some catastrophic demise of GW.

Just a slow decline into irrelevancy and segmentation from the larger hobby market. No doom. No big explosion. With a majority of customers buying direct at a higher price to ensure they can get what they want as your local store might get volume limited on popular products and can't get you the whole line anyway.

Stores are described as entry points for the GW hobby - and their only means of promotion. Moving them to areas where there is less footfall and denying the ability of their customers (who recruit for GW) to play games and paint and assemble miniatures in this 'hobby' space.

So, less potential customers able to see the brand and then less potential customers can see the hobby in action. You see where this goes.

There is also 'Direct Only' Core product is not available to FLGS and is only orderable via website or in store for delivery. Another negative.

Its not vitriol being spewed here. GW believe this is great news for their investors - at a time when revenues are down.

Yeah. I see a continual decline in revenues ahead. They still haven't even transitioned all their stores to single employee operations yet, so more staff cuts to come!

Margins will be protected at all costs. Dividends must be paid or GW offers investors literally nothing. No growth story. No dividends. Just failure.

Last time I went in a GW store was quite some years ago. I wanted something that had just been released but was told they didn't stock it because it was 'direct only' and despite me going direct to their own shop I was told I could order it in store and and collect it mid week or the following weekend. But I just didn't travel into the city that often, I used to go every few weeks or once a month. And buying online and paying postage on top just to get a single blister really wasn't worth it.

Waste of time. You don't even get rewarded going to their to their own corporate stores in city locations because they don't carry most of their own stock. It's not like it was in the 90s when you would walk in and the place was wall to wall with books, boxes and blisters. Now they are apparently downsizing so you can't even play games in their shops, not that I ever did myself, the small tables are only there for demo games to sell to new customers. I'm not sure what a GW store is for, their staff must really feel the pressure trying to meet store targets.

I've been in harrogates GW and Maidstones and found the managers of both to be enthusiastic hobbyists aswell as salesmen (they're one man stores). Both have run leagues or campaigns in the store, open late on certain nights for gaming and do their best to arrange games for their customers who are new to the area. Yes there is less gaming space than in the days of yore but they both stand out as great places to game for me. I literally went into the store for the first time with my army a few weeks back (mostly forgeworld, very little purchased in that store) and the manager helped me find a local gamer to play against, encouraged me to book in more games and informed me of the 40K ladder league coming up, and at not point was I pushed to purchase anything whilst in the store,.

 adamsouza wrote:
Reading DakkaDakka and the frequent posts of GW customers has contributed to a theory I'm beggining to believe. I perceive a difference in how people relate to GW and this hobby and their ability to play at a GW Hobby shop. I don't know if GW subtley indoctrinates people to a certain way of thinking. GW would like you to believe they are the be all, end all be all of Tabletop Wargaming. People new to the hobby often are indoctrinated into this line of thinking.

GW, as a whole and especially with their own stores, thinks they can succeed by doing business somewhat like Apple in that GW has created a complete ecosystem for gaming. You can now buy every single thing you need to game from GW and only GW. From the game, to hobby tools, to paints, to terrain, to even the table surface, you can get all that from GW without having to go anywhere else. It creates an echo chamber, in that, while you're in a GW store, you see only GW, even down to the carrying case your models are in. It's like no other brands exist, no other products exist. You're in a box with no windows to the outside world of wargaming. And that's exactly what GW wants.

I went into my local GW a few weeks back (the very same one that got me hooked in 97) because I wanted a Death Jester. Since they have been converted to finecast I wanted to have the opportunity to check the QC over before purchase. Sadly the store doesn't stock a lot of their own products. The employee offered to place an order for me on the pos and have it shipped to store so I wouldn't have to pay shipping. The problem is I wanted to check the item BEFORE purchase so I walked out empty handed.

What good is a corporate store that only sells their own products yet fail to stock so much of them on their shelves? The FLGS I shop at is just up the road a bit and they stock the exact same things that the corporate store does but offer a discount system, has other companies paint, tools ect and tons of gaming space. Why would I ever go to the GW store?

The one advantage that can get me into a GW store is completely lost as they themselves don't stock half of their own range. I need at least 5 of these models but I don't want to go through the process of waiting for them to come in and having to deal with waiting for the exchanges to come in if there is a problem. All I want to do is walk in, check the blisters and buy the good ones and walk out. Why is that so hard?

I too miss the days of the late 90's early 2000's when the store was jam packed full of cool stuff. They used to keep blisters under the gaming tables as well so you could ask them for stuff you didn't see.

It is so frustrating to read these sorts of posts, because it is so easy to fix!

GWS have it right that centralising your stockholding can bring huge efficiencies, it avoids the scenario whereby you have 300 stores all with an item in stock, but a customer walks into store 301 and walks out empty handed, or where store 301 orders one, which in GW's case may be manufactured but would usually be ordered in, despite there already being 300 available for sale. In actual fact, in the case of slower moving items, you could probably service demand for any given SKU with far fewer units on hand, say 50 units to cover 500 stores.

The problem with GW specifically is a) as mentioned, they need a reason for customers to go into their stores - the whole range, or a substantially higher percentage than found in indys, could easily be it and b) hobbyists are, IME, often sufferers of shiny syndrome and i want it now disease, and, certain exclusives aside, why wait for a full RRP order when an online company will discount? Sure, timescales could be argued, but the store delivery option is a once a week deal IIRC, so even a modest value order would likely be outperformed by their own website assuming you hit the free shipping threshold.

There is a c) in terms of Finecast quality, but this is an anomaly really, and never should have been an issue.

GW had it right, and have systematically spoiled it, and that to me as a hobbyist in possession of at least a semi-competent business brain, is hugely frustrating.

I think it is a good point you make, at least as it reflects that the value of the GW store has been decreasing as the store quality itself has been decreasing.

When I was getting back into 40k the last time, the fact that there was a "Chicago" (not in chicago) battle bunker 45 minutes away was pretty cool and definitely a major asset for me as a GW hobbyist. I would stop their occasionally and paint or game. I didn't go too often, but it was nice to know that if I couldn't get a game in locally, it was there. Since then, the Bunker has closed (as has the nearest GW in Oak Park) and stores don't really seem to be mecca's for actual gaming anymore.

In short, in my limited experience, there seems to be less and less reason for even the GW fan to hang-out at a GW store and because of this, they do indeed have less value.

Been in the hobby ten years

Haven't even soon a store in the flesh

I prefer your standard FLGS. variety is the spice of life

The stores aren't necessary infinity,privateer press and flames of war have managed to make and expand their popular set's without the need of a centric hobby store at all.

The whole no advertising thing is both silly and also defunct what got me into the hobby was the battle games in middle earth magazine series and also LOTR

that was a hell of alot of advertisement for GW

the much more responsible approach would be to work with gaming stores and even some toy stores as well to push and promote your product.

The GW store here is awful for gaming since it has like only two tables, and there's...like 4 FLGS stores here, each with many more tables.
I don't buy GW new, I feel one can find better stuff second hand (and oop stuff, which I like generally more).

I have been in this hobby for 25 years. I play at my local GW store because it is the closest to me, the manager is friendly and the customers/players are nice. It is a larger store with 3 tables so we can play games. The manager is an awful salesperson and never pesters me to buy something. (which I assume he will be fired one day)

The other hobby store I could go to is twice as far away, the staff ignore me and the player base is very cliqueish.

So I play at the GW store 9/10 times because it suits me. Not because of some indoctrination. People will play based on what works best for them in their area.

When I lived in Raleigh NC the store was too small to play games although the manager was always nice. I had my choice of multiple gaming stores and I played at the one with the nicest staff and nicest customer base - which is how I always choose where I play.

We: Did you start your wargaming life at a GW or an Indy? I suspect that may be more pertinent than where you choose to play now ie. those who start in a GW tend towards a much narrower view, those who have experience with the wider wargaming hobby and indy retailers may still choose to use a GW for reasons such as you outline, but it will be more of an informed choice.

OP, you're not the only person asking this. A GW store closing is a good thing for the hobby because it opens up more room in the market for a far superior independent store to take its place. Instead of being sad about it closing we should celebrate the removal of such an unproductive leech from the community, and look forward to what might replace it.

I like GW stores. They offer a place to play, which is valuable to me. Over the years it's become increasingly harder to organise specific game times with friends, so if it weren't for the store I probably wouldn't be playing games at all. Of all the wargames I've started over the years, most of them I've quit because of lack of people to play against.

While the local GW is a shadow of what it used to be, if it closed it would be a damned shame for me, I would have to find a new place to play.

It has nothing to do with indoctrination, it's the simple fact of the matter. I've been playing for close to 20 years now and have dabbled in other games over those years. I didn't even start in a GW store, I started in an FLGS and playing with mates and then moved on to a GW store later.

They offer a place to play, which is valuable to me.

The stores near me have phased out their gaming tables. I wasn't aware that any GW still allowed people to play in their stores, other than for demo games.

Meanwhile the nearest FLGS (which is still half an hour away from me) has a ton of tables, ton of terrain, and an instore espresso stand.

****Disclaimer - This is for the US only. I assume GW in the UK works similarly but only know 100% for sure this is the US Policy****

GW Stores are for recruiting this has been the case since at least 2001. The only stores based around regular gamers were the Battle Bunkers. First they get new hobbyists into warhammer or 40k and then the purpose is then to shift the newly recruited people out to FLGS's. It's up to the FLGS and the GW employee though to make this relationship work.

FLGS that have clean stores, solid customer service, and run events/have active people playing GW games in their stores then get the new blood and are supposed to grow the new blood in gaming.

The problems are

1) most store managers even don't get this no matter how it's drilled in. They see it as losing sales and try to hold onto every single person. Part of this problem is the bonus pay scale and financial targets.
2) People don't tend to understand this (see point one but add in point 3)
3) FLGS mostly get butthurt about a GW store in their area and don't work to grow the 40k/fantasy gamers.

A good FLGS is going to have a ton more going for it than a GW store is. That's a given. But they are normally worse at getting people into 40k/Fantasy/Wargaming for a variety of reasons.

People need to stop expecting a GW store to be a FLGS.

 Hulksmash wrote:

People need to stop expecting a GW store to be a FLGS.

Personally, I think that's a suicidal path for GW to take. There's no reason a GW store can't compete with the FLGS for service if GW wanted to. If anything it should be easier for them, as their proffit margins on any moved product are going to be higher. Bad management is the reason the GW stores are failing, not bad concept. They've focused on individual sales, rather than creating a self sustaining eco system. Metaphorically, their red shirts these days are hunters, rather than farmers. Properly managed, a FLGS creates a self sustaining environment that will grow the player base and provide a steady source of purchases via increased player population and retention of veterans. As far as I can tell, GW stores these days just try to ambush whoever comes in and harvest them for all their worth before abandoning them.

Having starting playing in a Hobby shop, I still had a fairly close-minded approach to Warhammer.

ALL MODELS and parts, at that time, I required to be GW. Even though other stuff is allowed in store, it wasn't until GW got rid of their sponsored tournaments in the US that I thought "screw it", and started building my armies from other cheaper miniature lines.

GW events I attended were why I built from GW product only. Since they pulled the plug on those, it opened a floodgate of amazing minis from other companies.

 Hulksmash wrote:
****Disclaimer - This is for the US only. I assume GW in the UK works similarly but only know 100% for sure this is the US Policy****

GW Stores are for recruiting this has been the case since at least 2001. The only stores based around regular gamers were the Battle Bunkers. First they get new hobbyists into warhammer or 40k and then the purpose is then to shift the newly recruited people out to FLGS's. It's up to the FLGS and the GW employee though to make this relationship work.

I think that is a doomed plan from the start. What incentive does the FLGS have to take on the maintenance of the new customer? The GW store has likely already sold him his rule books and pulled out all of his initial investment of models, then passes him off to the FLGS to game at. The FLGS now has to eat the overhead costs associated with this player without any associated sales from him/her. The FLGS has to hope that the new player stays within the game -and- wants to expand the army -and- wants to expand it from the limited availablity of models can sell. Hopefully its a third tactical squad and not a couple Direct Only special characters.