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Shotgun wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
****Disclaimer - This is for the US only. I assume GW in the UK works similarly but only know 100% for sure this is the US Policy****

GW Stores are for recruiting this has been the case since at least 2001. The only stores based around regular gamers were the Battle Bunkers. First they get new hobbyists into warhammer or 40k and then the purpose is then to shift the newly recruited people out to FLGS's. It's up to the FLGS and the GW employee though to make this relationship work.

I think that is a doomed plan from the start. What incentive does the FLGS have to take on the maintenance of the new customer? The GW store has likely already sold him his rule books and pulled out all of his initial investment of models, then passes him off to the FLGS to game at. The FLGS now has to eat the overhead costs associated with this player without any associated sales from him/her. The FLGS has to hope that the new player stays within the game -and- wants to expand the army -and- wants to expand it from the limited availablity of models can sell. Hopefully its a third tactical squad and not a couple Direct Only special characters.

You not understanding the business model doesn't make it doomed. I'll try to make an example though I'm sure it'll be flawed

-Ten 12 year old boys convince their parents to buy them starters and equipment for 40k in 2 weeks in September (early enough that the parents don't say wait till christmas)
-Six of those boys never come back, they either open it at home or forget it or what have you. These are sales that a FLGS is unlikely to get period. They just don't generally have staff that sell excitement like a GW employee is supposed to.
-Three of those boys comes back in a few times, picks up some stuff, maybe play a few mega-battles, and get stuff for christmas. After that they're never seen again. An FLGS misses out on most of these types of customers too for the same reason as the above.
-One kid come back after christmas. Wanting to play games, paint, and really gets into the hobby for 2-3 years before he discovers girls. This is the kid that most GW's shift to an FLGS. He's got a 50/50 shot a being a lifer for wargaming.

So the FLGS misses out on mass sales (which they don't really do anyway) and gets a likely dedicated hobbiest for several years, if not life. This kid will spend a fair bit of money over the years and treated correctly will never look inside a GW again while he's playing. He'll also likely branch out into other games that the store carries or runs events for. All for zero investment in time and location finding this kid and getting him into the hobby.

That's how FLGS are supposed to profit off of GW. With a good GW/FLGS arrangement this results in lots of new players/buyers at the FLGS over the course of the year. And if they do it right they use the newly excited and recruited hobbyist to bring in his friends.

GW Recruits hobbyists. FLGS sustain, nurture, and grow them. It's a system that works extremely well if done correctly. Game stores get new blood and dedicated gamers that'll spend money over time on various games and gaming materials and GW makes 55% of the sales those FLGS make on GW product without having to pay the additional overhead for larger spaces and more employees.

It's not a VS. relationship. It's meant to be a partnership. That said GW managers worried about bottom lines are as much to blame for it not working that way as scared/poor FLGS owners. And oddly FLGS generally can have a better stock of GW products than stores can. Simply because they can keep special order items on the floor if they feel they'll sell where as GW store managers have zero control over their inventories anymore.

The relationship described above used to sort of work around where I live; there's only one GW in the province (please note, British Columbia is the size of the UK with 7 million people, though more than half in a big, unkempt urban sprawl near the US border), but there used to be three of them; one in the downtown core, and one each in the biggest subsidiary "cities" directly across the two rivers which separate the downtown core form the rest of the population. None of them were especially large, property being what it is here, but they each had a good staff to customer ratio and some gaming space.

What they were good for was, however, linking customers up with FLGS in more convenient locations for them they might not know about. People would go to a GW store for a variety of reasons; curiosity in the product, new to the area but already invested and looking for games, new players, etc. The stores would make some money off them, but never be afraid to recommend store X in location Y if the customer mentions it's a long or difficult trip for them to these stores, and the store employees would often go to those stores themselves, not in an official capacity, but as part of the larger community for tournaments, events and so on. All the FLGS owners knew one another, and the GW employees as well, and were actually quite organized in minimizing overlap and maximizing their business efficiency through a number of means, such as co-ordinated events, when moving locations they'd ensure they wouldn't overlap catchment areas and so on.

Fast forwards to today, one of the GW employees had his schedule re-arranged by his manager to prevent him from going to one of the FLGS events, and GW constantly shorts the individual stores on products, messes up orders, delays products and the lone, little GW store in a hard-to-reach immigrant community fundamentally denies any other venues for The Hobby exist.

And for some reason, the local community isn't growing.

Shocking.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
if Privateer Press mans up and makes their own store franchise

I highly doubt that will ever happen. PP have the good sense to simply work with FLGS to expand their product, where as GW are sinking about half of there revenue (maybe more now that it's dropping so fast) into keeping open a ton of stores that simply aren't working anymore.

PP remembers a fact that GW has long forgotten. They are a game (and mini) PRODUCER, not a game (and mini) RETAILER.

GW wants to be the Coporate Wet Dream Version of Marvel. They want to branch their IP out into different markets, while somehow maintaining a strangle hold on it and the profits made from it.

Nah, GW wants to be Apple, well, Kirby wants to be Jobs.

They want their customers to camp out waiting for their latest release, and to buy every one with out question or criticism.

 adamsouza wrote:
Reading DakkaDakka and the frequent posts of GW customers has contributed to a theory I'm beggining to believe. I perceive a difference in how people relate to GW and this hobby and their ability to play at a GW Hobby shop. I don't know if GW subtley indoctrinates people to a certain way of thinking. GW would like you to believe they are the be all, end all be all of Tabletop Wargaming. People new to the hobby often are indoctrinated into this line of thinking. I also think this contributes to the vitriol spewed by their critics is some sort of backlash when they break away from it.

Personally, I've never stepped into an official GW Store, It's not intentional, there has never been one within a reasonable drive. I don't think there has ever been one in my home state for that matter. (Just googled it, it's a 3 hour and 30 mintue drive to the nearest store in Greenwich Village, New York) I learned about 40K in a local comic book shop, and started playing in another comic book shop. As a consequence I imagine, I don't see GW Shops as an important part of the hobby. I routinely see the opposite belief held, even if it is not intentional.

When GW cuts back gaming space, staff, stock, etc.. in a GW shop,someone will post about it, with the belief it is iindicative of the health of the hobby, and GW, as a whole.
Closing a GW store is met with echoes of doom and gloom. When there were copies of Space Hulk left on the shelf, Space Hulk was decried a failure because there were copies still on the shelf at the GW store.

To be honest, I guess I can kind of see where the belief comes from, but I just don't buy it.

I hear stories about GW stores, targeting only high value locations, having limited gaming space, while the average hobby store I've been to has 4-8+ tables.
GW store, ALL GW, ALL the time, while the average hobby store has a variety of games.
GW store frowns on anything other than GW models on the field, Hobby Shop doesn't really care if you use other models.
GW store employees are sales people first and mabye a hobbyist second. Hobby shop employee is a Gaming Geek who most likely loves the game.

You see, you don't understand the point in all this, this is what I have been told, and goes like this.

GW is in the process of restructuring its regime and has been for the 10 or so years, eventually in 5 to 10 year GW will kill off its tabletop gaming side and be solely a Hobby only operations.

To make a point, within 10 years there will be only two types of stores Kiosk and Shop Front these are very small stores with no gaming at all.

Bunker and Hobby stores will be closed, not to mention that any Independent Stockist will only carry the two rulebooks (Warhammer and 40K) and the starter sets, all other purchases will be done through GW's online store.
Also regards to this, GW is expected to stop the free pick-up, all purchase via online store will be sent to postal addresses only, this is where the income will come from the charging of postage. GW is expected to earn millions of pounds in postal charges alone.

I'll give you an example, 7 years ago I was the odd one out, a pure collector, not interested in the gaming side, however 7 years later I am GW's main focus, the pure collector.

That is the future, get used to it.

 Achaylus72 wrote:
GW is in the process of restructuring its regime and has been for the 10 or so years, eventually in 5 to 10 year GW will kill off its tabletop gaming side and be solely a Hobby only operations.

This would be committing suicide as a profitable business. GW needs the existence of the game to convince people to buy the models, without seeing it on display/hearing the stories of awesome games/etc they aren't going to get very many new customers and their sales would be almost entirely limited to the last few current players finishing their collections. This would only make sense as a business move if you assume that GW's management have been infiltrated by employees of WOTC and they are deliberately trying to crash GW's stock price so that WOTC can buy the IP as cheaply as possible.

Bunker and Hobby stores will be closed, not to mention that any Independent Stockist will only carry the two rulebooks (Warhammer and 40K) and the starter sets, all other purchases will be done through GW's online store.

This would also be suicide as a profitable business, at least outside of the UK. GW depends on getting sales through independent stores, limit those stores to selling a few starter sets and most of them will just drop GW's products entirely*. And now all the people coming into those stores to play MTG/RPGs/comics/etc will have GW's competition as their first introduction to tabletop wargaming, meaning that GW will have very few replacement customers and no hope of long-term survival.

*Remember, in the US (and probably elsewhere) tabletop wargaming as a whole is small compared to MTG/RPGs/board games/comics/etc. Most independent stores are staying in business because of non-GW products, making some extra profit off GW stuff is just a nice bonus. If GW destroys the profitability of selling their products then the independent store loses almost nothing buy dumping them and giving the shelf space to some other game.

Also regards to this, GW is expected to stop the free pick-up, all purchase via online store will be sent to postal addresses only, this is where the income will come from the charging of postage. GW is expected to earn millions of pounds in postal charges alone.

This makes no sense at all, unless you assume that GW is going to massively overcharge for shipping as a hidden cost instead of just raising prices AND get enough gullible customers to think that it really costs that much to ship something. The much more likely outcome of trying something that stupid would be that people buy less stuff from GW, and those losses more than offset any gains from overcharging for shipping.

Also, you seem to ignore the fact that in-store pickup is a great marketing tool for GW. You're more likely to buy stuff when you get free shipping and, unlike most free shipping, GW can just throw your order into the box of stuff they're already delivering to each store instead of having to ship a separate package to you. And then once you're in the store to pick up your order GW gets a chance to sell you even more stuff. Throwing this sales opportunity away makes absolutely no sense.

 Achaylus72 wrote:

You see, you don't understand the point in all this, this is what I have been told, and goes like this.....

That is the future, get used to it.

I would have been happy to ignore you, but the irony that your entire long responce was both condescending, and completely failed to miss the point, made it irresistable.

Everything you stated is irrelevant to my post. I think GW shops are completely overvalued by members of our community, and mostly irrelevant to survival of this hobby.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Achaylus72 wrote:

You see, you don't understand the point in all this, this is what I have been told, and goes like this.....

That is the future, get used to it.

I would have been happy to ignore you, but the irony that your entire long responce was both condescending, and completely failed to miss the point, made it irresistable.

Everything you stated is irrelevant to my post. I think GW shops are completely overvalued by members of our community, and mostly irrelevant to survival of this hobby.

I think the problem, though, is that he's right. Not that that sort of person can sustain the gw business model, but that certainly seems to be what they're aiming for.

 Achaylus72 wrote:


I'll give you an example, 7 years ago I was the odd one out, a pure collector, not interested in the gaming side, however 7 years later I am GW's main focus, the pure collector.

That is the future, get used to it.

It's not us that has to get used to it, it's GW. When their business fails because their way of doing things sucks, they'll wonder why targeting the smallest minority and alienating everyone else didn't work.

 MWHistorian wrote:

It's not us that has to get used to it, it's GW. When their business fails because their way of doing things sucks, they'll wonder why targeting the smallest minority and alienating everyone else didn't work.

You just need to close your eyes and repeat "jewel like objects of magic and wonder" over and over until your negative thoughts just fade away.

 frozenwastes wrote:
You just need to close your eyes and repeat "jewel like objects of magic and wonder" over and over until your negative thoughts just fade away.

Don't click your heels at the same time though, or you might end up in kansas.

 Vulcan wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
if Privateer Press mans up and makes their own store franchise

I highly doubt that will ever happen. PP have the good sense to simply work with FLGS to expand their product, where as GW are sinking about half of there revenue (maybe more now that it's dropping so fast) into keeping open a ton of stores that simply aren't working anymore.

PP remembers a fact that GW has long forgotten. They are a game (and mini) PRODUCER, not a game (and mini) RETAILER.

Much like the movie Pearl Harbor, you guys just keep missing the point. My point is, of course GW only wants their products in their store. If any other game company made a store, they would do the same if not very very similar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 adamsouza wrote:
and completely failed to miss the point,

So... he nailed the point perfectly?

 adamsouza wrote:
I'm actually not griping about GW at all. I'm trying to illustrate that people who play in them tend to put an overabundance on the value and importance of actual GW stores on their role in the hobby.

If you play in the stores... their value is that they give you a place to play... sooo... that's their value.

If the store closes and you were one of the people who played in the store, yeah, it would be kind of annoying because you'd have to find a new place to play.

I'm sure their importance varies greatly depending on location, but as a location where people can gather and game, it's useful. More useful (in that purpose) than my FLGS where it's all MtG and Warmahordes players.

If the store doesn't let you play there, then that store is not important. I'm not sure what else needs to be said

I'm pretty lucky with the area I'm in, as I'm practically tripping over both FLGS and GW stores, more than I've put the effort into going to. I'm probably counting my area as probably bigger than most people, but generally within an hour of public transport, I have 4 GWs and 3 FLGS that I know of.

I generally feel more welcome in the GWs than in the FLGS, and it's usually because I get along better with other hobbyists/customers, even the ones I've just met. Staff are pretty good everywhere, which is pretty surprising. In any case, I just go where I feel like I'm not wasting people's time.

I have mixed feelings regarding the value (and purpose) of GW stores to both GW and their customers.

On the positive side, GW stores allow GW to place their products directly into in the public eye, one of the few, true marketing tools available to them other than their website and WD. While I do agree that the primary focus of GW stores is retail sales and the recruitment of new players, I also believe that GW’s secondary focus is building and sustaining a dedicated player base in their stores. More about this later.

GW stores also provide the opportunity for new and veteran players alike to see most (if not all) of their product line first hand in one convenient location. The FLGS in my area can’t even begin to compete in terms of variety, availability and volume. GW stores also provide the ability to order nearly everything in their product range and have it shipped free of charge to their store for pickup within a week of placing the order. An FLGS would have to be on top of their ordering game to compete with GW in this regard.

It’s been stated that the GW store/FLGS relationship should be a mutually supportive relationship where the GW store introduces the new player to the hobby and then hands the new player off to the FLGS for sustainment throughout the player’s gaming career. While this is a healthy, desirable end state, I believe that GW’s actions are counter to this.

The GW store in my area will have its second anniversary this coming January. In that time, there have been several permanent managers and a handful of temporary managers running this store, a total of 9 managers in all. The reasons for these manager changes have ranged from failure to meet sales goals through disenchantment with corporate policy/direction.

The current manager has inherited a proverbial soup sandwich of a situation. Not only does he have to meet his expected monthly sales figures, he also has to produce enough sales volume to overcome the Fiscal Year to date sales shortfalls he inherited from his predecessors. GW Corporate is holding him accountable for sales performance throughout the entire Fiscal Year, despite the fact that he has only been the manager of this store for less than a handful of months.

Part of the problem lies in the location of this store. It is located in one of the most affluent locations in the area (theoretically a desirable location), but it is also located in the least trafficked area of the shopping center it is located in. This area is also located far enough away from the majority of the local player base who tend to patronize FLGS options located closer to them or turn to internet based sales alternatives.

The GW store manager has more of an FLGS mindset in that he desires to build and sustain an active in store player base ala FLGS style. He does however view the FLGS as competition in this regard, which I believe is the result of having the monthly and cumulative Fiscal Year to date sales quotas always dangling over his head. Factors working against him include store location, limited in store gaming space, restricted opening days and hours, and finally competition from the FLGS themselves.

If GW’s desire is to build and sustain an active local player base in their stores, then the small, one man GW stores are not the approach to take. My local GW store has three 6 X 4 gaming tables shoe horned into an area surrounded by product shelves on three sides. While games are in progress, there is not enough room for purchasing customers to walk around and browse the merchandise on the shelves without having to constantly squeeze by players at the gaming tables. The store also does not allow anyone to use the in store restroom (only the Manager can use it), will not allow food or beverages into store, in addition to all of the other factors mentioned above. The FLGS have the advantage in this area as the environment and experience are both customer and player friendly in these regards. All in all, this is not the way to go about attracting, maintaining and sustaining a dedicated in store player base.

I truly don’t see my local GW store being in existence past the end date of its current lease despite the best heroic sales efforts on the part of the current manager. GW could have prevented this problem by thoroughly researching the local gaming scene and carefully selecting a retail location based on that research before situating this store in its current location.

If GW’s goal is to truly cultivate an active, in store player base, then I believe that they are better served by increasing the manning in one man stores to at least two people while at the same time, reducing the total number of these stores, re-establishing larger, regional battle bunker type stores and working to re-establish long lasting, healthy business relationships with FLGS. By re-establishing multi-man stores, GW can be open for business during more days and hours each week. Limiting business hours to selected hours on Wednesdays through Sundays is causing them to lose potential business.

I would also like to see GW re-establish one large, flagship store in the US that stocked all of the GW product line including FW and BL, similar to the former GW US Headquarters in Glen Burnie, MD. With the savings that GW could have realized by opening fewer one man stores, they could have afforded to keep Glen Burnie open.

 adamsouza wrote:
Reading DakkaDakka and the frequent posts of GW customers has contributed to a theory I'm beggining to believe. I perceive a difference in how people relate to GW and this hobby and their ability to play at a GW Hobby shop. I don't know if GW subtley indoctrinates people to a certain way of thinking. GW would like you to believe they are the be all, end all be all of Tabletop Wargaming. People new to the hobby often are indoctrinated into this line of thinking. I also think this contributes to the vitriol spewed by their critics is some sort of backlash when they break away from it.

Personally, I've never stepped into an official GW Store, It's not intentional, there has never been one within a reasonable drive. I don't think there has ever been one in my home state for that matter. (Just googled it, it's a 3 hour and 30 mintue drive to the nearest store in Greenwich Village, New York) I learned about 40K in a local comic book shop, and started playing in another comic book shop. As a consequence I imagine, I don't see GW Shops as an important part of the hobby. I routinely see the opposite belief held, even if it is not intentional.

When GW cuts back gaming space, staff, stock, etc.. in a GW shop,someone will post about it, with the belief it is iindicative of the health of the hobby, and GW, as a whole.
Closing a GW store is met with echoes of doom and gloom. When there were copies of Space Hulk left on the shelf, Space Hulk was decried a failure because there were copies still on the shelf at the GW store.

To be honest, I guess I can kind of see where the belief comes from, but I just don't buy it.

I hear stories about GW stores, targeting only high value locations, having limited gaming space, while the average hobby store I've been to has 4-8+ tables.
GW store, ALL GW, ALL the time, while the average hobby store has a variety of games.
GW store frowns on anything other than GW models on the field, Hobby Shop doesn't really care if you use other models.
GW store employees are sales people first and mabye a hobbyist second. Hobby shop employee is a Gaming Geek who most likely loves the game.

(Note up front: Adam Souza and i are from the same regional area, so there's some regional specific info in this post, that's why. We're both from Southeast Massachusetts.... Heck i think we traded on bartertown once, haha!).

I can sum up this entire post in two points:

1) Wargamers are hyperbolic reactionists.

2) GW has a lot of curious / wonky / bad / flat out stupid ways of conducting business.



It's the same when any local game store dies, all the locals take their microcosm of gaming and extrapolate it to the wider health of the hobby. Incorrectly. They say "oh the hobby is dying around here".... not correct, your store couldn't keep its doors open. Why is that ? Are people giving up the game, or are they playing in their basements, at clubs, etc. Are they not buying at all anymore, or are they buying online at discount ? Etc etc.


While it might be true in the microcosm, it's not in the macrocosm.


Gaming is more accessible now than it ever was and innovative minis are thriving on places like Kickstarter - to the point where even mainstream companies are crowdfunding their R&D (which is absurd, in my eyes, but whatever... if people will pay them for R&D that will get off the ground whether it's crowd funded or not, be my guest).

The real crux here is not if company X is brainwashing / indoctrinating its clientele its that the brick and mortar model continues its slow strangulation death throes. There are people that can still make it work, but their model has adapted. Cards. Board games. Kid friendly stuff. etc. Those are the shops making it. GW doesn't have that arrow in its proverbial quiver.

Offfering discounts at least something like online - 10 years ago in new england if you went into a shop and said "hey, for every 100 bucks i spend, give me 10% off", the shop owner probably would have laughed at you and then asked you to leave. Hell the shop i played at 13 years ago, i witnessed an exchange just like this. The other shop i sometimes went to in Dartmouth, i witnessed something similar.

They're both long since closed up their doors.

Now the most successful shop around here, Battleground Games and Hobbies, does that as standard operating practice and policy. It's all to combat the "well i can buy this from the warestore for 20% off" mentality. Guess what ? Abbington is still open to this day, and their new(er) store, Plainville is thriving and kicking ass.


So its not really a problem with the hobby. Its a problem with the brick and mortar model. Moreover its a problem that GW doesn't have an answer like game stores that have figured out how to stay open, which they've done through adaptation and diversification.



My (thirty-)two cents on the matter.


-- Haight

While it might be true in the microcosm, it's not in the macrocosm.

Yes.Yes,Yes. Thank you for getting it.

---------

You mentioned Dartmouth, that would have been Grandmasters, and you couldn't have chosen a better example about the discount and GW indoctrination to their way of thinking.
I had multiple discussions with the store owner about the possibility of getting a discount when making large orders. Every time it came down to the same thing, GW had brain washed him into the logic trap that if he offered any discount he would have to sell twice as much stock. The discussion would just grind to a halt there. He would rather I spend my money elsewhere, and receive a 0% cut of the profit, because 20% was half as much as 40% and "he'd have to sell twice as much product." I thought at one point he might just have a grudge against me, but I watched him have this conversation with other customers.

In it's defense, and this means a lot coming from me because I didn't like the owner, not offering a discount isn't what closed Grandmasters. They built a Best Buy in the same plaza and the land lord wanted to triple the rent. The store owner's brother in law offered him a great job at his company. It was more pay, less head aches, and fewer hours. He received an offer from one of the regular gamers there who went on to open Game Haven up the street.

Game Haven actually offered a 10% discount for a $10 yearly membership, which included a locker to store your stuff a the shop. Game Haven was actually quite popular with GW and FOW crowds but ended up closing after disputes with the their land lord. First the Landlord had destroyed their store sign while remodelling and then they found out that the water supply there was pretty contaminated with lead. They found out about the contamination because they were using the tap water in their childs formula and were furious, closing up shop within a week.

Interesting info on Grandmaster (and game haven, which i only went to once).

What's really ironic, is this is not at ALL what the locals started rumormongering about, haha! Which just proves the point. I heard all sorts of stories involving personal crisis (bankruptcy, for one thing), to poor business management. So assuming the "family offered a better job is true", this really slams home the home run of my point of "gamers are not always, but tend to be hyperbolic reactionists".


However, i'm with you that Grand Master ... had the potential to be a good store, but my gaming crew never ended up calling that home because we weren't a huge fan of the owner, or the clique of 5-6 owner's friends that called that home and pretty made anyone else feel like they were bothering them if they dared come in and play. I won't name names, but there were two guys that drove me absolutely crazy there. All in all it wasn't really a great store because it wasn't welcoming. And you're right - while i never approached the owner for a discount, he had that feet in the sand mentality - my way or the high way. So its interesting to hear that the store didn't encounter problems other than the Best Buy. I never believed the craziest of the stories, but figured that what happens to most happened ; it just became unsustainable. Considering how clique-y the store was, that didn't seem hard to imagine. If you make an environment where only 5 people feel welcome, and everyone else is impinging on their clubhouse, its hard to keep the doors open.

Same for the other store i referred to, but in that instance, I know for a fact that the store ceased being profitable and was actually losing money.


Anywho... good hearing from you and thanks for the info on those stores.

 Haight wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Reading DakkaDakka and the frequent posts of GW customers has contributed to a theory I'm beggining to believe. I perceive a difference in how people relate to GW and this hobby and their ability to play at a GW Hobby shop. I don't know if GW subtley indoctrinates people to a certain way of thinking. GW would like you to believe they are the be all, end all be all of Tabletop Wargaming. People new to the hobby often are indoctrinated into this line of thinking. I also think this contributes to the vitriol spewed by their critics is some sort of backlash when they break away from it.

Personally, I've never stepped into an official GW Store, It's not intentional, there has never been one within a reasonable drive. I don't think there has ever been one in my home state for that matter. (Just googled it, it's a 3 hour and 30 mintue drive to the nearest store in Greenwich Village, New York) I learned about 40K in a local comic book shop, and started playing in another comic book shop. As a consequence I imagine, I don't see GW Shops as an important part of the hobby. I routinely see the opposite belief held, even if it is not intentional.

When GW cuts back gaming space, staff, stock, etc.. in a GW shop,someone will post about it, with the belief it is iindicative of the health of the hobby, and GW, as a whole.
Closing a GW store is met with echoes of doom and gloom. When there were copies of Space Hulk left on the shelf, Space Hulk was decried a failure because there were copies still on the shelf at the GW store.

To be honest, I guess I can kind of see where the belief comes from, but I just don't buy it.

I hear stories about GW stores, targeting only high value locations, having limited gaming space, while the average hobby store I've been to has 4-8+ tables.
GW store, ALL GW, ALL the time, while the average hobby store has a variety of games.
GW store frowns on anything other than GW models on the field, Hobby Shop doesn't really care if you use other models.
GW store employees are sales people first and mabye a hobbyist second. Hobby shop employee is a Gaming Geek who most likely loves the game.

(Note up front: Adam Souza and i are from the same regional area, so there's some regional specific info in this post, that's why. We're both from Southeast Massachusetts.... Heck i think we traded on bartertown once, haha!).

I can sum up this entire post in two points:

1) Wargamers are hyperbolic reactionists.

2) GW has a lot of curious / wonky / bad / flat out stupid ways of conducting business.



It's the same when any local game store dies, all the locals take their microcosm of gaming and extrapolate it to the wider health of the hobby. Incorrectly. They say "oh the hobby is dying around here".... not correct, your store couldn't keep its doors open. Why is that ? Are people giving up the game, or are they playing in their basements, at clubs, etc. Are they not buying at all anymore, or are they buying online at discount ? Etc etc.


While it might be true in the microcosm, it's not in the macrocosm.


Gaming is more accessible now than it ever was and innovative minis are thriving on places like Kickstarter - to the point where even mainstream companies are crowdfunding their R&D (which is absurd, in my eyes, but whatever... if people will pay them for R&D that will get off the ground whether it's crowd funded or not, be my guest).

The real crux here is not if company X is brainwashing / indoctrinating its clientele its that the brick and mortar model continues its slow strangulation death throes. There are people that can still make it work, but their model has adapted. Cards. Board games. Kid friendly stuff. etc. Those are the shops making it. GW doesn't have that arrow in its proverbial quiver.

Offfering discounts at least something like online - 10 years ago in new england if you went into a shop and said "hey, for every 100 bucks i spend, give me 10% off", the shop owner probably would have laughed at you and then asked you to leave. Hell the shop i played at 13 years ago, i witnessed an exchange just like this. The other shop i sometimes went to in Dartmouth, i witnessed something similar.

They're both long since closed up their doors.

Now the most successful shop around here, Battleground Games and Hobbies, does that as standard operating practice and policy. It's all to combat the "well i can buy this from the warestore for 20% off" mentality. Guess what ? Abbington is still open to this day, and their new(er) store, Plainville is thriving and kicking ass.


So its not really a problem with the hobby. Its a problem with the brick and mortar model. Moreover its a problem that GW doesn't have an answer like game stores that have figured out how to stay open, which they've done through adaptation and diversification.



My (thirty-)two cents on the matter.


-- Haight

Then explain the global sales loss of $17.20 million USD in the last report, that is not a micro economics but macroeconomics.

Also in my area alone in the last 7 years has seen a healthy retail and gaming league scene which had 7 retail outlets and 6 gaming leagues with about 500 players to now 2 retail outlets and 1 gaming league with at best 15 to 20 players.

Can you explain how in Australia at it's height GW had 300+ independent stockists, now 75. And in light of the new retail practices by GW in Europe with their "Trade Partners" is resulting in Independent Stockists are pulling out in large numbers with dozens of stores no longer stocking GW product.

I have explained this but their are some who for whatever reason categorically refuse to understand the issues.

 Achaylus72 wrote:

 Haight wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Reading DakkaDakka and the frequent posts of GW customers has contributed to a theory I'm beggining to believe. I perceive a difference in how people relate to GW and this hobby and their ability to play at a GW Hobby shop. I don't know if GW subtley indoctrinates people to a certain way of thinking. GW would like you to believe they are the be all, end all be all of Tabletop Wargaming. People new to the hobby often are indoctrinated into this line of thinking. I also think this contributes to the vitriol spewed by their critics is some sort of backlash when they break away from it.

Personally, I've never stepped into an official GW Store, It's not intentional, there has never been one within a reasonable drive. I don't think there has ever been one in my home state for that matter. (Just googled it, it's a 3 hour and 30 mintue drive to the nearest store in Greenwich Village, New York) I learned about 40K in a local comic book shop, and started playing in another comic book shop. As a consequence I imagine, I don't see GW Shops as an important part of the hobby. I routinely see the opposite belief held, even if it is not intentional.

When GW cuts back gaming space, staff, stock, etc.. in a GW shop,someone will post about it, with the belief it is iindicative of the health of the hobby, and GW, as a whole.
Closing a GW store is met with echoes of doom and gloom. When there were copies of Space Hulk left on the shelf, Space Hulk was decried a failure because there were copies still on the shelf at the GW store.

To be honest, I guess I can kind of see where the belief comes from, but I just don't buy it.

I hear stories about GW stores, targeting only high value locations, having limited gaming space, while the average hobby store I've been to has 4-8+ tables.
GW store, ALL GW, ALL the time, while the average hobby store has a variety of games.
GW store frowns on anything other than GW models on the field, Hobby Shop doesn't really care if you use other models.
GW store employees are sales people first and mabye a hobbyist second. Hobby shop employee is a Gaming Geek who most likely loves the game.

(Note up front: Adam Souza and i are from the same regional area, so there's some regional specific info in this post, that's why. We're both from Southeast Massachusetts.... Heck i think we traded on bartertown once, haha!).

I can sum up this entire post in two points:

1) Wargamers are hyperbolic reactionists.

2) GW has a lot of curious / wonky / bad / flat out stupid ways of conducting business.



It's the same when any local game store dies, all the locals take their microcosm of gaming and extrapolate it to the wider health of the hobby. Incorrectly. They say "oh the hobby is dying around here".... not correct, your store couldn't keep its doors open. Why is that ? Are people giving up the game, or are they playing in their basements, at clubs, etc. Are they not buying at all anymore, or are they buying online at discount ? Etc etc.


While it might be true in the microcosm, it's not in the macrocosm.


Gaming is more accessible now than it ever was and innovative minis are thriving on places like Kickstarter - to the point where even mainstream companies are crowdfunding their R&D (which is absurd, in my eyes, but whatever... if people will pay them for R&D that will get off the ground whether it's crowd funded or not, be my guest).

The real crux here is not if company X is brainwashing / indoctrinating its clientele its that the brick and mortar model continues its slow strangulation death throes. There are people that can still make it work, but their model has adapted. Cards. Board games. Kid friendly stuff. etc. Those are the shops making it. GW doesn't have that arrow in its proverbial quiver.

Offfering discounts at least something like online - 10 years ago in new england if you went into a shop and said "hey, for every 100 bucks i spend, give me 10% off", the shop owner probably would have laughed at you and then asked you to leave. Hell the shop i played at 13 years ago, i witnessed an exchange just like this. The other shop i sometimes went to in Dartmouth, i witnessed something similar.

They're both long since closed up their doors.

Now the most successful shop around here, Battleground Games and Hobbies, does that as standard operating practice and policy. It's all to combat the "well i can buy this from the warestore for 20% off" mentality. Guess what ? Abbington is still open to this day, and their new(er) store, Plainville is thriving and kicking ass.


So its not really a problem with the hobby. Its a problem with the brick and mortar model. Moreover its a problem that GW doesn't have an answer like game stores that have figured out how to stay open, which they've done through adaptation and diversification.



My (thirty-)two cents on the matter.


-- Haight

Then explain the global sales loss of $17.20 million USD in the last report, that is not a micro economics but macroeconomics.

Also in my area alone in the last 7 years has seen a healthy retail and gaming league scene which had 7 retail outlets and 6 gaming leagues with about 500 players to now 2 retail outlets and 1 gaming league with at best 15 to 20 players.

Can you explain how in Australia at it's height GW had 300+ independent stockists, now 75. And in light of the new retail practices by GW in Europe with their "Trade Partners" is resulting in Independent Stockists are pulling out in large numbers with dozens of stores no longer stocking GW product.

I have explained this but their are some who for whatever reason categorically refuse to understand the issues.

No one is disputing that ; cease searching for a GW white knight defender where none exists, or someone decrying your stance as false where none was made. Also you allude to where "you've explained this all before", but you speak like 1) I have any idea who you are, or 2) your treatise on the matter is unto law given word format. Geez. Put succintly, chill out.

We're not talking about health of the company (which had some AWFUL moments in the past couple years), or its business practices (which generally suck but have small shiny moments of hope each year). I would probably agree with you on these particular points by the way.

We're talking about gamers in general tending to see an individual store not doing well and then extrapolating that to the hobby in a wider macrocosm.

Gaming in general is not on the decline, though GW might have been last year (we'll see the next financial report if that trend continues).... however you're proving my point that taking a microcosm (in this case a large one - GW's financial health) and extrapolating that to the tabletop gaming industry at large. Warmachine and Hordes are doing better than ever - so much so that Privateer was able to launch other games (fair being fair: i have no idea how well Level 7 or 9 whatever its called is doing). Malifaux was successful enough to reboot its line of minis into plastic (and gorgeous ones at that). Games like Xwing , dropzone commander are getting attention. Once independent manufacturers like Mantic are gaining steam. Kickstarters offer lots of indies options.

Gaming on the whole is doing better ; the brick and mortar model ( Be it GW or otherwise, which again, you missed the WHOLE damn point of my post which i swung away from the microcosm of GW and to the wider hobby / industry as a whole, and which Adam Souza, the OP, agreed with) is not, though there are some smart entrepreneurs out there that have managed to make it work and thrive.


Take your area: have people given up gaming ? Or did those retail outlets close because people bought online ? Maybe a healthy bit of both ? Also while your figures are anecdotal and impossible to prove or disprove on gamers in the area, i simply don't believe your gaming area had 500 active purchasing players and now is down to 15-20. These sound like ridiculous figures to me - particularly the 500. No industry or product, unless you are the pager in comparison to the cell phone sees that kind of decrease unless you are made completely obsolete (like the horse and buggy vs. the car, or the steam engine vs. the internal combustion engine).

Have clubs opened in your area (which was a very popular thing in my area for several years after some retailers closed up shop, the pendulum has now swung the other way that there are now 4 shops with a thriving clientele, and a few - i can name 3, but there might be more - clubs are still around and kicking - and this is just in central to southeastern massachussetts. I don't get up to the north shore much, so there could be more.


So in closing you missed, largely the point of the discussion, but you were so quick to slam GW that you ignored the larger points - which is fine, i don't disagree with you on your slams, but again, you're proving my point by reinforcing that gamers think in the microcosm not the macrocosm. Tabletop gaming is in a MUCH better place than it was ten years ago by almost every benchmark except the brick and mortar retailer benchmark.

And your sales claims of GW dipping, while true and valid, don't indicate a dearth of gaming ; they indicate a dearth of GW gaming - games like PP's games, Wyrd's, Fantasy Flight, Mantic, Corvus belli and others are doing really really well.


I have no idea why the heck you evne took the time to reply to my post... it's like you didn't bother reading it or even try to understand what i was saying, but couldn't hit reply fast enough to type a couple googled facts, throw out a couple of ridiculous stats as "facts", and "prove" somehow that GW sucks ... which no one is particularly denying for one, and in addition, proves my point right on the money aside from your ridiculous claims of an impossibly large playgroup that i seriously doubt numbered 500 people. I mean... some regional gaming cons barely get 500 tabletop players, and you're claiming your every day play groups in the area had that many. I turn a skeptical eye towards that. I really skeptical eye with my nose pinched shut, eyeing up the male bovine farm next door.


-- Haight

Achaylus72 , you have crafted a passionate post seemingly in responce to a post other than the ones you quoted.

My stance in the OP was that any one local GW Store is not an indicator of the overall health of the GW hobby.

Personally, I think the problem with GW in Austrailia is that they charge you poor bastards twice as much, even though your currency is on par with the US dollar.

If GW is going for niche collectors, then that have to compete with actual collector's pieces... I don't think they're good enough to step up to boutique lines like Kingdom Death, artist lines like Andrea, and the "every man" miniature line like Reaper. Kindgom Death makes incredible resin limited run minis, Andrea makes both historical and fantasy sculpts (along with many companies like them), and Reaper makes models priced correctly for a broad market.

GW makes cartoony minis in relatively overcosted packs for mini collectors. Spend $30 for a 28mm heroic scale figure (plastic or poor resin) versus $10~$20 for a truescale 54mm in metal. If they are shooting for an even narrower margin of folks who are just "GW Collectors" then I don't think they can sustain the business model they have. I'm actually pretty certain they cannot given they do all injection molding plastic in house that only becomes profitable at high volume sales versus metals or resins.

I absolutely do not want to turn this thread into another discussion about how GW may or may not fail in the next few years, but you mentioned the $30 single figures.

Forgive me if I can't recall the thread, but it was mentioned that a GW staffer confessed that
1.) Molds for plastics have down in price in recent years
2.) Those $30 single figs GW is fond of lately, pay for themselves on release day

 TheKbob wrote:
If GW is going for niche collectors, then that have to compete with actual collector's pieces... I don't think they're good enough to step up to boutique lines like Kingdom Death, artist lines like Andrea, and the "every man" miniature line like Reaper. Kindgom Death makes incredible resin limited run minis, Andrea makes both historical and fantasy sculpts (along with many companies like them), and Reaper makes models priced correctly for a broad market.

GW makes cartoony minis in relatively overcosted packs for mini collectors. Spend $30 for a 28mm heroic scale figure (plastic or poor resin) versus $10~$20 for a truescale 54mm in metal. If they are shooting for an even narrower margin of folks who are just "GW Collectors" then I don't think they can sustain the business model they have. I'm actually pretty certain they cannot given they do all injection molding plastic in house that only becomes profitable at high volume sales versus metals or resins.

I've recently swung away from gaming into collecting and painting for its own sake and this is exactly what I've experienced.

I've been buying large scale resin pieces with limited runs of 100-200 because they are sculpted and produced in the artists garage. That to me is collecting and those are mind blowing quality.

GWs stuff looks like toys to collectors.

 adamsouza wrote:
I absolutely do not want to turn this thread into another discussion about how GW may or may not fail in the next few years, but you mentioned the $30 single figures.

Forgive me if I can't recall the thread, but it was mentioned that a GW staffer confessed that
1.) Molds for plastics have down in price in recent years
2.) Those $30 single figs GW is fond of lately, pay for themselves on release day

Remove the game. Now do they? And what's your data because most of the Kickstarters and other companies (like Wyrd and Dreamforge) still suggest a significantly higher investment, more so than a resin/metal spin-type mold. And they sell their's at a cheaper cost/higher volume with no in-house production capabilities, meaning GW should be able to undercut having nearly a vertical consolidation for pipelining out minis.

Or was the intent of your post to say the are not just overpriced but insanely overpriced to pay for themselves on release day?

There is no removing the game. When GW stops making the game there will be no reason to buy the miniatures.

I don't appreciate you trying to put words in my mouth about GW's pricing. They are profitable at their current pricing. That was my point.

As you pointed out, they do thier own plastic in house, while every kickstarter out there is getting someone outside of thier company to do it for them. It's cheaper for GW to do plastic than any Kickstarter can manage. If you don't understand that concept, your entire concept of their buissiness model is flawed.

The reason for GW doing their own casting in house (including plastic) has nothing to do with price, its because they are paranoid about Chinese recasters.

 jonolikespie wrote:
The reason for GW doing their own casting in house (including plastic) has nothing to do with price, its because they are paranoid about Chinese recasters.

It's also about price; it saves them a fortune.

 adamsouza wrote:
I absolutely do not want to turn this thread into another discussion about how GW may or may not fail in the next few years, but you mentioned the $30 single figures.

Forgive me if I can't recall the thread, but it was mentioned that a GW staffer confessed that
1.) Molds for plastics have down in price in recent years
2.) Those $30 single figs GW is fond of lately, pay for themselves on release day

1. I don't think anyone will deny molds have dropped in price significantly; there's even cheaper steel/aluminium for smaller runs. I believe it's now well under $10,000 for a mold, and this is shown by the sheer volume of new companies getting plastic molds done, and even Salute 2013 had an LE mini made in plastic to give away to visitors.

2. I've never heard that but I wouldn't be surprised. Back of envelope calculations show you only need to sell about ~1500 to recover the cost of the mold ($10,000 for mold, $500 for design, 25% of sticker price covering the overheads). That gives about $7 in fixed overheads (design/mold) + maybe $1 in per-unit (the plastic stamp, box, shipping), they sell to stores for $15, which sell to customers for $30. I've no idea how many places sell GW stuff these days, but if there were 500 globally, that's only 3 per shop.

 jonolikespie wrote:
The reason for GW doing their own casting in house (including plastic) has nothing to do with price, its because they are paranoid about Chinese recasters.

It's mostly about price. GW was producing their own miniatures in metal, plastic, and resin long before there were recasters.