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 Vaktathi wrote:
Unfortunately there's no official list from GW as to which IA book has the latest rules for a unit. They appear to be about as interested in that as providing comprehensive FAQ and Errata (i.e. not very).

It'd be helpful, but alas...

Ah...for a perfect world!

 jasper76 wrote:
Does GW or FW have a list?

No. They really should, but they don't.

And question already answered, I are fast lel.

Meh. Play against who you want. Stop crying about losing to legit armies.

 Pyeatt wrote:
I think what we're forgetting is that this is just one ill-informed persons opinion we're trying to change, not the standard policy for any FLGS.
It does annoy me that Jasper has no clue what his opponents play, doesn't look at their lists and ask questions, and looks to blame anything for his losses.
I think all we're trying to do is make a statement so that when noobs read it, his argument doesn't poison their minds.

What are you talking about dude?

I am talking about Titans from IA books, who people here are now telling me may be illegal, however apparently there is nothing official whatsoever to say that they're illegal, so they are, in fact, legal.

I was in an auto-lose situation, which my (noble) opponent agreed was an auto-lose situation, and trying to figure out how to tell a future ignoble player whether he is using a bad book or not, which by everyone's admission is impossible to say, since GW or FW has apparently never put out any publication to say that any single IA book is, in fact, out of date.

Best way to deal with a mess like this IMO is to avoid it... = no IA books.

 jasper76 wrote:
So you expect a player with an IA book will respect what DakkaDakka.com or Wikipedia.org has to say as to what IA books are still good, and what are bad??? I wouldn't. These aren't sources.

Is there a list available from GW?

No, there isn't, but if you actually bothered to look at the dakka link and use the grey matter in your head, you would see that its pretty logical (for the most part) what is still current and what isn't. Example. Imperial Armor Volume 1, and Imperial Armor Volume 1 2nd Edition. Logic dictates that if there is a 2nd edition of the book, the first one is no longer valid. Granted, some are slightly less obvious, like Imperial Armor and Imperial Armor II. Technically not the same title as Imperial Armor VOLUME 1 and Imperial Armor VOLUME 2, but if you put two and two together, it seems clear that they are out of date as well... and if you dont believe that you can just take a look inside the rulebooks themselves, they reference rules that haven't existed in several editions. Admittedly, there are a couple cases where this isnt entirely clear, specifically Imperial Armor 5/6/7/9/10. In these cases, you only really know that they are obsolete books because rules have been reprinted from them on the forgeworld website and/or in other books which specifically state that they replace the rules found in those books. In any case, generally speaking, if your opponent doesn't trust this 'source', he's probably not worth your time.

 jasper76 wrote:
@Sasori, I'm noty sure it was a Warhound. It might have been a Reaver or something else.

Anyway, I can't seriously present something from this site, or Wikipedia especially, as a legit source as to what IA rules are still good or bad.

Sure you can, the list was compiled through lots of hard work from the community, specifically people who own those books and could appropriately cross reference rules to determine the most up to date source for them.

Does GW or FW have a list?

Nope, and they rarely (if ever) will tell you when one book supercedes the other. Hence your options are to either own every book and be able to cross reference the publication dates, or trust others who have already done it for you.

@Vakathi: The difference to me is that the new Space Marine Codex overwrites the old one.

Where does it say that specifically in any of the rulebooks?

Does IA 13 overwrite all previous IA editions? I seriously do not know, because I never bought any IA books.

No. IA 13 is actually Imperial Armor VOLUME 13, as in its the 13th installment in a series of books which will technically all be supported continually through revised editions. The contents of IA13 generally differs from previous books, there will be the occasional overlap in a unit here or there, but generally speaking each volume covers something specific. IA1 for example covers imperial guard and navy, volume 2 is space marines and inquisition, volume 3 is primarily Tau, volume 4 is primarily Tyranids, etc.

Anyway, to the original point of this thread, Titans are generally overpowered, for whatever reason, moreso than non-titan superheavies of the same points cost. I dont know how, or why, they just are, and generally I recommend avoiding playing with them unless both players bring one to the table. Ultimately though, that is a GW issue more than it is a FW issue.


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 jasper76 wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
I think what we're forgetting is that this is just one ill-informed persons opinion we're trying to change, not the standard policy for any FLGS.
It does annoy me that Jasper has no clue what his opponents play, doesn't look at their lists and ask questions, and looks to blame anything for his losses.
I think all we're trying to do is make a statement so that when noobs read it, his argument doesn't poison their minds.

What are you talking about dude?

I am talking about Titans from IA books, who people here are now telling me may be illegal, however apparently there is nothing official whatsoever to say that they're illegal, so they are, in fact, legal.

I was in an auto-lose situation, which my (noble) opponent agreed was an auto-lose situation, and trying to figure out how to tell a future ignoble player whether he is using a bad book or not, which by everyone's admission is impossible to say, since GW or FW has apparently never put out any publication to say that any single IA book is, in fact, out of date.

Best way to deal with a mess like this IMO is to avoid it... = no IA books.

What you're missing is that if the rules are current, they are in fact GW rules from Apocalypse. The only reason IA comes into the picture is because they have reprinted those same rules in a couple places. Prior to that, they did have their own rules, those older rules are no longer current, though IIRC, they are significantly more balanced than the current GW iteration.

@chaosomega: I have read and considered everything you have written. Unfortunately, I suppose, I don't play in an environment where people take non-GW rules seriously.

It is common sense that the newest codex overwrites the older one. Now I understand that IA publications that are not updates to the same publication (like IA1 version 2 or whatever) do not overwrite older books, so the newest version of the oldest books are all valid technically.

Whatever the case, this is all too complicated for me. There are a gazillion rules in the BRB, and a gazillion rules in the gazillion codices without the headache of IA rules. I just will make it a personal rule to avoid IA armies except for amongst my trusted friends who I know dont have ill intentions and really, really want to play them for some reason.

It doesn't bother me one bit if other people play and enjoy the IA books. 40k is just one of like 6 tabletop games we play, and I don't need this kind of complication in an already extraordinarily complicated game (which I love )

chaos0xomega wrote:
Logic dictates that if there is a 2nd edition of the book, the first one is no longer valid.

Eh, not necessarily. Remember the old, old Dark Eldar codex with "2nd Edition" on the cover?

"It says right here on the cover 2nd Edition, that means it was printed during 2nd edition! It couldn't have possibly come out during 3rd, you idiot!"

Admittedly, it once threw me off, too.

 jasper76 wrote:


Whatever the case, this is all too complicated for me. There are a gazillion rules in the BRB, and a gazillion rules in the gazillion codices without the headache of IA rules.

And herein lies the reason why I have all but quit 40k. Its bad enough that Imperial Armour updates (as unnecessary as they are) are unclear, now GW has convoluted their own releases through campaign books, subcodecies, dataslates, white dwarf releases, etc. etc. etc. I have no idea what half of the rules published by the GW design studio are anymore, let alone where I can find them.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:


Whatever the case, this is all too complicated for me. There are a gazillion rules in the BRB, and a gazillion rules in the gazillion codices without the headache of IA rules.

And herein lies the reason why I have all but quit 40k. Its bad enough that Imperial Armour updates (as unnecessary as they are) are unclear, now GW has convoluted their own releases through campaign books, subcodecies, dataslates, white dwarf releases, etc. etc. etc. I have no idea what half of the rules published by the GW design studio are anymore, let alone where I can find them.

I'm inclined to agree. We, my gaming group and I, are still able to extract good fun out of 40k by using the BRB and the codices. But the million other books and publications they release, IMO, seem more and more and more like cash grabs with no purpose other than to move paper and plastic. I understand and can respect that a company needs to stay afloat, but in the end, I just want to have fun going 'pew-pew' against my friends, and I don't need 400 books to do so....the BRB and the main codices are quite plenty enough for me.

I'm going to have a talk to my friend about this IA book with his Titan rules, and all other IA books, and let him know that, at least in as far as games with me are concerned, its getting the 86.

To be honest, any special rules we may need beyond the 'regular' set of books, me and my friends can handle just fine on our own without this headache.

 jasper76 wrote:
@Sasori: So if there is no official list, there is no official knowledge.

So anyone can say any IA book they own is legit.

I come back to my opinion...no IA books. By saying this, I'm not judging people who choose to play with IA books, but I don't see any other way around the issue of what rules are allowed, and what rules are not allowed, since there doesn't seem to be anything that says older books are disallowed.

(People I play with have never heard of this website, so I can't use the list our friend so kindly provided here, and Wikipedia is just a popular vote)

Anything thats IA 2nd editions is the most up to date source at this moment. Most units from 1st edition IA have an entry in the new apoc book and as such are no longer the most up-to-date entries.
IA books that currently have a 2nd edition are IA 1 trough 4 + IA 13.

I want to add that I've never had problems with titans on the condition that my opponent lets me know beforehand that he will be using a LoW.
With pickup games this is impossible because, well, they're pick up games. But ask your opponent if he's going to use any. If he is, then ask him whether you could make a tweak to your list before actually seeing his list.
Most of the time, people were reasonable and let me do so. If people are so friendly as to let you change your list, be kind in return and don't have a complete list-overhaul.
If you drop everything in your list in favor of an ungodly amount of melta and lascannons to counter his LoW, you're not being a good sport.

Just keep in mind that not all super heavies are Titans and some are not too bad. Also keep in mind that the Eldar Titans are far worse to play against than the Imperial ones.

You should find most of the rules for Titans in 2 books (Escalation and Imperial Armour: Apocalypse). There are some exceptions eg. The Eldar Phantom, but I highly doubt you will play/ want to play vs one of those unless it was a full on APOC game.

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/1d/0d/6e/1d0d6e18381dd408353b7f121162fd9b.jpg

There's an image of the 2 main Imperial Titans, I'm going to assume you were up against the Warhound (Back left)

That's a really nice Wraithknight.

 jasper76 wrote:



Best way to deal with a mess like this IMO is to avoid it... = no IA books.

To be fair, as noted, this course of action will do nothing regarding your experience however, as the currently available Imperial Titans (along with D weapons) are all done through GW's core studio and mainstream publications.

It'll just mean you won't see cool stuff like Death Korps armies or Decimator Engines or Nightwing Fighters and the like.

Just a thought

It's really not any more difficult keeping track of IA books than it is Codexes and all the other crap GW is chucking out. And as people have said many times now which you seem to be ignoring, Titans are actually in GW books, not FW books. So just saying 'No IA!11!!!!11!1' isn't gonna help...

So my opponent is a class act...he left me a voicemail apologizing for throwing the titan at me. He said he just painted it up and it was the first time he's ever played it, and he won't play it in another 40k game but will keep it for Apoc games.

He didn't even have to call at all. I barely know the guy outside of gaming.

Butt less hurt, faith in humanity restored. Life goes on.


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 Vaktathi wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:



Best way to deal with a mess like this IMO is to avoid it... = no IA books.

To be fair, as noted, this course of action will do nothing regarding your experience however, as the currently available Imperial Titans (along with D weapons) are all done through GW's core studio and mainstream publications.

It'll just mean you won't see cool stuff like Death Korps armies or Decimator Engines or Nightwing Fighters and the like.

Just a thought

Dude, my gaming clup banned the IK codex, along with (my) T-CTan. quite a while ago. Implementing D-Weapons in standard 40k really was a jump the shark move IMO. I think it happened with Escalation book in 6th edition, right? Anyways, this particular episode didn't happen in my regular gaming club, where we don't play with D-weapons...it happened in a pickup game at my flgs.

Anywho...the guy left me a cool phone message, which he didn't have to do. I'll have no problem playing his Titan again if I have my own Titan, and he can teach me the rules for it and so forth, but IMO, and I don't care if people agree or not, it really has no place in a 40k game. D-weapons are a bit too much except against other D wepaons. Parity makes games fun. Lack of parity makes games stupid. It's just that easy IMO.

One things for certain, I am not wasting my time learning rules for IA books for pickup games. If this thread's taught me one thing, its that GW really doesn't regulate itsefl when it comes to mainitaing their IA books through different game versions. If they can't keep their own rules straight with these books, I sure as s--t am not gonna try to

DaPino wrote:
If you drop everything in your list in favor of an ungodly amount of melta and lascannons to counter his LoW, you're not being a good sport.

Bringing a titan to a pick-up game isn't being a good sport in the first place.

 jasper76 wrote:
So my opponent is a class act...he left me a voicemail apologizing for throwing the titan at me. He said he just painted it up and it was the first time he's ever played it, and he won't play it in another 40k game but will keep it for Apoc games.

Sounds like a reasonable guy. I've been in his position before, not with a Titan, but I know the feeling. You just got something REALLY awesome and you wanttotryitout but its just... aiya. Too good.

 jasper76 wrote:

Dude, my gaming clup banned the IK codex, along with (my) T-CTan. quite a while ago. Implementing D-Weapons in standard 40k really was a jump the shark move IMO. I think it happened with Escalation book in 6th edition, right? Anyways, this particular episode didn't happen in my regular gaming club, where we don't play with D-weapons...it happened in a pickup game at my flgs.

One things for certain, I am not wasting my time learning rules for IA books for pickup games. If this thread's taught me one thing, its that GW really doesn't regulate itsefl when it comes to mainitaing their IA books through different game versions. If they can't keep their own rules straight with these books, I sure as s--t am not gonna try to

So, would you refuse to play against my Repressor and Avenger Strike Fighter, if I showed you the most recent version of the rules, and you looked at them on an individual basis? Or would you just say "no, no IA stuff" blanket term because of losing against a Titan?

 Furyou Miko wrote:

So, would you refuse to play against my Repressor and Avenger Strike Fighter, if I showed you the most recent version of the rules, and you looked at them on an individual basis? Or would you just say "no, no IA stuff" blanket term because of losing against a Titan?

In a pickup game at an flgs, I'm afraid not, I'm done with IA there...there's plenty of game to be had with the million trillion rules available in the regular codices. By the same token, I may be done with dataslates too. Not because I'm scared or unfamiliar with dataslates that exits, only because I know GW is going to unleash an endless swarm of dataslates for post-hardback-codex $$$ that I don't care to stay on top of....keeping up with GW rule releases is becoming a full time job, and all I want out of 40k is a hobby.

If you were a good friend of mine, and you really really wanted to play with your cool IA model, I'd do it.

Simple as that, for me. Again, I don't care if other people use IA books in pickup games, and enjoy the crap out of them. Go for it! I'm only speaking for myself here.

Your loss, I guess.

Well, no, probably not since I'd just use a different list, but eh.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Your loss, I guess.

Well, no, probably not since I'd just use a different list, but eh.

Yep...nobody loses squat really by me choosing not to play IA armies in pickups...just play me with a 40k list and I'm all smiles...or move on to the next guy and see if he minds




Automatically Appended Next Post:
You know, as I think about it, I suppose I am emblamatic of a poor marketing strategy on the part of Games Workshop. They've released all these attractive hardback codices, so a mutual completionist and cheapskate such as myself can feel like I have a complete 7th edition set by having the BRB plus the codices and not feel like I need to purchase or keep up with anything else.

In any case, a while ago (a bit before 7th was released) my gaming club decided we would stop purchasing GW books after the last codex was updated to hardback. This decision was made by veteran players who were vocally upset with all the money they have given to GW to keep up with their aggressive rules releases. But in my case, its a fun game, fun enough to keep up with the main books, but not really fun enough to get all the extra doodads. I may have mentioned earlier that my gaming club plays about 6 different tabletop games. 40k is just one of them. In a sense it competes for my time and energy and money with other games, some of them with flat-out better core rulesets. Its kinda like...I could keep up with all this IA and dataslate stuff, but why would I? I'd rather just play Necrons vs Space Marines, then switch to Romans vs. Celts, then switch to Gondor vs Mordor, etc, etc.

Well, I think part of the reason people are getting upset about you refuting the use of Imperial Armour books is that you keep saying they're not part of the 40k list.

The Repressor and the Avenger are part of the Sister of Battle army list for Warhammer 40k. There's no two ways about that. They're just as valid as Tauroxes were in the previous Imperial Guard codex, or as Toxicrenes are in the Tyranid army list.

The rules are published by the same company, under the same trademarks, for the same game system.

Does that mean you have to play against them? No, no more than it means you have to play against an all-Destroyer Unbound Necron list or a Space Marine list with Combi-melta Sternguard in Drop Pods... but insisting that they're not really part of the 40k army is purely fallacious.

Sorry, I think this has been a poor choice of words on my part.

FWIW, when I have been saying "40k army", really the only thing I mean by that is "BRB and main Codices" (and in the case of my gaming group, also minus the Imperial Knights codex, but that's neither here nor there). I never meant to suggest that the IA supplementsare not produced by GW for the purpose of 40k, only that its a kind of "extra", so to speak, along with the dataslates and so forth. Something GW is trying to get you to purchase beyond the primary books. I hope that makes sense.

Thanks for pointing that out to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Repressor and the Avenger are part of the Sister of Battle army list for Warhammer 40k. There's no two ways about that. They're just as valid as Tauroxes were in the previous Imperial Guard codex, or as Toxicrenes are in the Tyranid army list.

So here is sorta my take on things. You accept the Toxicrene into your gaming world. Next month you will be accpeting the Acidcrene, and after that you will be accepting the Yolocrene, and then the Mamacrene, and then the Papacrene, and then the Yambocrene. And after that it will be the UKcrene, and then the USAcrene, and then the Argentinacrene. Do you see my poin?. For someone like me, its just easier to have everyone play with what's in that nice hardback Tyranid book, for all its strengths and weaknesses, amd forget all these products being thrown at you, than to buy into Games Worskshop's deliberately endless cycle of patches and dataslates and IA books and supplements and campaign books. Its a consumer cycle some people are stuck in that I don't really see a need for or wish to buy into, because honestly, the game really isnt that good. Instead of keeping up with all these new products, I'd rather invest time, energy, and money into other stuff, because, as I said, we have an active tabletop thing going on where 40k is just a slice.

But to each his own.

(P.S. I do realize the absurdity of railing against what is, in essence, a toy company)

I see your point, but my take on it is that I only have to follow the bits that interest me, and if someone else wants to include a hentai tentacle monster in their 'nid army... let 'em!

I'd also be perfectly happy to play a dozen games against a Titan, until I actually managed to kill it, though, so take that as you will. ^^;

 jasper76 wrote:
@Sasori: If I ever cast any bad light on my opponent, I didn't mean to. I think I said "I might have been cheated", but I don't think in any way whatsoever that it was intentional. I play whit this guy all the time and he's a good guy.

He was referencing an IA book. If it was old and out of date, I'm just wondering if there's a GW or FW publication that actually says its old and out of date. We both agreed it was nonsensical to play this game again. At this point, I am just asking in case I run into another player who is not so honest, using IA1 or whatever when it shouldn't be allowed to be played.

One unit... Ban the whole codex. makes sense.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I see your point, but my take on it is that I only have to follow the bits that interest me, and if someone else wants to include a hentai tentacle monster in their 'nid army... let 'em!

I'd also be perfectly happy to play a dozen games against a Titan, until I actually managed to kill it, though, so take that as you will. ^^;

Right on. As a matter of fact, I play my own homebrew codex, so I guess I am sorta one to talk here. But in my case, its all done within the rules of the BRB, the SM codex, and the CSM codex. I don't pull from the "extras". Of course, I wouldn never ever pull my homebrew codex in a pickup game.

In any case, if we were good buddies, which I have a feeling if we met in person and played some games, we would become, I'd entertain your army lists, really whatever they contain.

But once it comes to pickup games with people I don't really know, that formula changes entirely for me personally. It's just really not that fun bringing a "normal" list, and having someone come at you with D weapons from 60 inches or whatever they do. Or a Mambocrene noone's ever heard of, has a 1+ Poison weapon with Range Infinite, 15 Void Shields, a 2++ Invul, and hits in CC with 12 D attacks (obvious exaggeration here), but GW put it out for $$$ and you spent the 20 bucks for the dataslate, so that just makes it all OK???

Anyhow...cheers!

 jasper76 wrote:


For someone like me, its just easier to have everyone play with what's in that nice hardback Tyranid book, for all its strengths and weaknesses, amd forget all these products being thrown at you, than to buy into Games Worskshop's deliberately endless cycle of patches and dataslates and IA books and supplements and campaign books.

You're one step away from being one of those "It's not worth it to buy a new codex every time it comes out." guy who's going to get stuck in a previous edition of the game. I'd definitely never play you because I don't like your "If I don't have your rules memorized, you can't play it" attitude. If someone brings the IA book, or at least the relevant print-outs for their units... well I'd say they're better off playing someone with sportsmanship in them.

 Pyeatt wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
@Sasori: If I ever cast any bad light on my opponent, I didn't mean to. I think I said "I might have been cheated", but I don't think in any way whatsoever that it was intentional. I play whit this guy all the time and he's a good guy.

He was referencing an IA book. If it was old and out of date, I'm just wondering if there's a GW or FW publication that actually says its old and out of date. We both agreed it was nonsensical to play this game again. At this point, I am just asking in case I run into another player who is not so honest, using IA1 or whatever when it shouldn't be allowed to be played.

One unit... Ban the whole codex. makes sense.

You are missing the point. The point being, that the popular opinion here is that certain IA books are no longer kosher. This is not my opinion, this is everyone elses. However, there is absolutely no official guidance from GW to say that any of their published IA material is actually no longer kosher, so in the absence of any official rules, every IA book is, in fact, kosher, because how on earth would you argue against it.

If bad books are kosher, and I can't tell an opponent that their particular IA book is no longer legit, because GW never said it was no longer legit, I am stuck playing whatever an IA player says is OK. To be honest, this isn't my problem. It's GW's problem. They haven't kept up with their books good enough for Joe Six Pack like me to know what's good and what's bad.

Too complicated. Easier for me personally to remove IA from the equation. Just my decision, doesn't have to be yours.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pyeatt wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:


For someone like me, its just easier to have everyone play with what's in that nice hardback Tyranid book, for all its strengths and weaknesses, amd forget all these products being thrown at you, than to buy into Games Worskshop's deliberately endless cycle of patches and dataslates and IA books and supplements and campaign books.

You're one step away from being one of those "It's not worth it to buy a new codex every time it comes out." guy who's going to get stuck in a previous edition of the game. I'd definitely never play you because I don't like your "If I don't have your rules memorized, you can't play it" attitude. If someone brings the IA book, or at least the relevant print-outs for their units... well I'd say they're better off playing someone with sportsmanship in them.

Nope. It's common sense that a new codex overwrites the oild one. However, IA 13, from what people have told me here, doesn't overwrite anything at all. Nor will IA14, nor will IA15, nor IA16, nor IA17, nor IA18. Spend your money and time as you will. I'm not playing that kind of ball game.

Oh, and in case you missed it, my gaming group actually did decide to freeze 40k when the Necron and BA codices come out in hard back. This actually wasn't my decision, it was the decision of the majority of our group who most of them have been with 40k since 2nd edition. It happened when they released 6.25 only 2 years after they released 6the Edition. Basically, they feel that GW is trying to bleed them for cash, and although I am much newer to the game, its hard to argue against.

About the IA books...

IA13 is outdated for sure, the latest IA:Apocalypse (2013) is the most up to date afaik.

It can even be found somewhere on the internet - like everything really.

In that book, there's a Chaos Reaver at 1460 points, with 18HP, 4 void shields and some badass weapons (up to 8 D-strength large blasts).

I can see how it would be tricky to take it down with anything else than 1460 points of pure unbound fast melta.

But... if you have the right units, dealing 18HP on AV14 within 12" (inside the power field / void shields) is not unrealistic - apart from the major incoming damage, it's 4.5 Land Raiders.

In my opinion, 1500 points of Titan should not happen without at least 3000 points of support, so if your opponent is bringing that kind of stuff, just bring what you'd take to counter it.

I think there is a difference between:
1) "We will not buy anything besides the Codex".
and
2) "We refuse to play against anything besides the Codex".

morgoth wrote:
About the IA books...
IA13 is outdated for sure, the latest IA:Apocalypse (2013) is the most up to date afaik.

IA13 is outdated? It was released like a week ago!

I'm sorry, you won't let people use IA models against you, but all you play is a home brew codex? Bit of hypocrisy there..?

And it's REALLY not difficult. Any IA books that have a Second Edition, the second edition is the one you use. IA 13 has the Chaos list from Vraks so you use that, and units in IA Apocalypse you use.