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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/02 13:24:40
Subject: Average Toughness WTF?
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Dakka Veteran
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Some people are saying that if a unit has 2 or more toughness profile, use the MAJORITY, not the AVERAGE. I have seen this in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypTKpvMObqo where the Eldar squad have Toughness of 3-3-6 and they take 3 for the whole. What the feth? Are you saying that a 5 man squad with two Toughness 2, one Toughness 10, one Toughness 9, one Toughness 8 which ultimately have Toughness 2?
Can anyone explain this to me?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/02 13:28:49
Subject: Average Toughness WTF?
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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Yes in your example the units toughness would be 2. This is per page 34 in the BRB.
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ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.
You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/02 14:14:20
Subject: Average Toughness WTF?
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Dakka Veteran
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Gravmyr wrote:Yes in your example the units toughness would be 2. This is per page 34 in the BRB.
This rule is fethed up.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/02 15:01:29
Subject: Average Toughness WTF?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I don't mind this rule at all really, it isn't always the most realistic but most of the time it's the difference between T4 and T5 and it does a lot to streamline the game.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/02 15:31:21
Subject: Average Toughness WTF?
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Fixture of Dakka
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It's much better than doing it model by model.
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tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/02 15:40:09
Subject: Average Toughness WTF?
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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It's a mixture of balance between highs and lows and streamlining, imo. It keeps units that are low toughness due to strong abilities or low point costs from being hugely buffed with the addition of a single high toughness model while keeping high toughness units from being hugely weakened via the addition of a weak model. It keeps the math low and can be done quickly at the table. You are firing into a group with a roughly even chance of hitting anyone in the the group. As such the most common model in the unit, the ones with the same toughness most of the time, gets hit.
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ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.
You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/02 19:56:19
Subject: Average Toughness WTF?
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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I'm a little curious as to where you got the idea that you use the average value to begin with...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/03 19:31:02
Subject: Average Toughness WTF?
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Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant
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Well technically majority toughness is an average, but it's the mode instead of mean
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/03 21:36:06
Subject: Average Toughness WTF?
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Dakka Veteran
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Gravmyr wrote:It's a mixture of balance between highs and lows and streamlining, imo. It keeps units that are low toughness due to strong abilities or low point costs from being hugely buffed with the addition of a single high toughness model while keeping high toughness units from being hugely weakened via the addition of a weak model. It keeps the math low and can be done quickly at the table. You are firing into a group with a roughly even chance of hitting anyone in the the group. As such the most common model in the unit, the ones with the same toughness most of the time, gets hit.
No wonder the Tau were OP in 6th edition. That Commander with Riptide is Toughness 6. Good luck dispatching that. But now, that is no possible anymore.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/03 23:55:01
Subject: Average Toughness WTF?
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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bibotot wrote:No wonder the Tau were OP in 6th edition. That Commander with Riptide is Toughness 6. Good luck dispatching that. But now, that is no possible anymore.
It worked the same way in 6th...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/04 00:04:44
Subject: Average Toughness WTF?
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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Think the posters complaint was against the common tactic of putting a Commander and a Riptide together, but I can't understand exactly why the concern would be about the commander getting some sort of 'toughness boost' from the situation. While I am sure that it is a factor, there are far more obvious variables that are far more over-powered / desired then simply lowering the chance of Wound against any particular Model in the group. After all, the reason why such a joining was over-powered came from the War-gear the Commander was bringing to the Riptide, granting it the likes of Ignore Cover or Twin Linked, not the other way around. If anything, the 'majority toughness' system is more realistic from a narrative point of view.... In a Unit of mixed Toughness, where everyone has a buddy stronger then themselves, it isn't going to be the weaker of the two using the other as a living shield... well, most times. This situation is one such example of that concept as well: The Riptide in question would clearly be the 'tank,' positioning itself between the Commander and the Enemy so the vast majority of the incoming shots will be absorbed by it's thicker Armour and shield generator. Even if the Enemy managed to Flank in such a way that it puts the Commander into the direct fire-line, that Riptide is still going to throw itself between the incoming shots and the Commander without hesitation. Everything, narrative wise, indicates that the majority of Shots will end up hitting the majority Toughness so the Rules simply reflect this.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/04 00:21:03
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/04 00:12:38
Subject: Average Toughness WTF?
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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bibotot wrote:
No wonder the Tau were OP in 6th edition. That Commander with Riptide is Toughness 6. Good luck dispatching that. But now, that is no possible anymore.
It can still happen, but only with O'vesa, the Farsight Enclaves IC Riptide.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/04 01:46:19
Subject: Average Toughness WTF?
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I'll Be Back
UP Michigan
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How does this interact with instant death? Say i have a squad of T3 guys with one T6 guy who is in front. Does the T6 guy in front suffer instant death if the squad is shot at with S8 weapons?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/04 01:50:27
Subject: Average Toughness WTF?
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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Instant Death is determined on a model by model basis after saves are failed, the majority Toughness has nothing to do with it.
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Tau and Space Wolves since 5th Edition. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/04 03:51:18
Subject: Average Toughness WTF?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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If that guy is at the front of the line, it's a shooting attack (rather than a blast), and there's no one to LOS! the hit?
Yep.
You remove casualties from the front.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/04 13:35:56
Subject: Average Toughness WTF?
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Psienesis wrote:If that guy is at the front of the line, it's a shooting attack (rather than a blast), and there's no one to LOS! the hit?
Yep.
You remove casualties from the front.
Why would blast make a difference? Also why would S8 cause instant death on a T6 model?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/04 13:37:00
Subject: Average Toughness WTF?
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The Hive Mind
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Psienesis wrote:If that guy is at the front of the line, it's a shooting attack (rather than a blast), and there's no one to LOS! the hit?
Yep.
You remove casualties from the front.
But the wound doesn't cause Instant Death until after it's allocated and the Strength is checked against the Toughness of the suffering model.
In other words, no - a S8 weapon will never ID a T6 model (unless the weapon IDs regardless of Toughness).
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/06 22:03:16
Subject: Average Toughness WTF?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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I'm more talking about order of who gets shot with what, not so much the ID application. And in the case of IDs-anything-it-hits, same deal. Attack from the front of the conga-line unit (the assumed formation in this example) hits the guy up front first, and then walks down the line until you've emptied the W pool.
Why would blast make a difference? Also why would S8 cause instant death on a T6 model?
Because blasts apply hits to models under the marker, not from the LOS of the person/weapon firing it. So if the blast landed in the back-field of this unit, and did not cover Sarge McSargeyson who was leading the charge with the marker, then he's fine. The guys behind him, on the other hand...
As said above, Im not really talking about the ID application (though if this were some weapon with both Blast and " IDs anything regardless of T", then same thing as above).
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/06 22:07:35
Subject: Average Toughness WTF?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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No, that isn't how blasts work. Please reread the blast special rule. You're thinking of barrage.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/06 22:08:32
Subject: Average Toughness WTF?
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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Psienesis wrote:Because blasts apply hits to models under the marker, not from the LOS of the person/weapon firing it. So if the blast landed in the back-field of this unit, and did not cover Sarge McSargeyson who was leading the charge with the marker, then he's fine. The guys behind him, on the other hand...
No, people under a blast are not hit, it generates hits and then those wounds are allocated to the front of the unit the same as other shooting.
It's Barrage that will hit the people at the back..
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/06 22:08:54
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/06 22:11:40
Subject: Average Toughness WTF?
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Why do you think blasts hit what under the marker instead of what is nearest to the firer?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/06 22:11:55
Subject: Average Toughness WTF?
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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ItsPug wrote:Well technically majority toughness is an average, but it's the mode instead of mean
No. Mode and majority are two different values.
Mode is the value that is the exact middle value of a data set. The majority is simple the value which appears more than any other.
2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7.
For the above, the majority is 2. The mode is 4.
And average = mean. Its the only type of average.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/06 22:20:06
Subject: Average Toughness WTF?
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Multispectral Nisse
Luton, UK
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Grey Templar wrote:ItsPug wrote:Well technically majority toughness is an average, but it's the mode instead of mean
No. Mode and majority are two different values.
Mode is the value that is the exact middle value of a data set. The majority is simple the value which appears more than any other.
2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7.
For the above, the majority is 2. The mode is 4.
And average = mean. Its the only type of average.
You're actually thinking of median. It is correct to say that mode is the 'majority'.
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“Good people are quick to help others in need, without hesitation or requiring proof the need is genuine. The wicked will believe they are fighting for good, but when others are in need they’ll be reluctant to help, withholding compassion until they see proof of that need. And yet Evil is quick to condemn, vilify and attack. For Evil, proof isn’t needed to bring harm, only hatred and a belief in the cause.” |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/06 22:22:25
Subject: Average Toughness WTF?
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Mode is most common, median is middle value and both are averages. This is not the mode, as in mode if you have multiple most common values you take the mean of them not the highest. But it is very similar to the mode and is an average.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/06 22:56:58
Subject: Re:Average Toughness WTF?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Multiple Toughness Values
Quite rarely, a unit will contain models with differing Toughness characteristics. When this occurs, roll To Wound using the Toughness characteristic that is in the majority in the target unit. If two or more Toughness values are tied for majority, use the highest of these tied values.
You roll to wound using the toughness of the majority, but there is nothing giving permission to count the model as actually having that toughness or counts as that toughness.
Any Wound allocated to a model has the Instant Death special rule (see below) if the Strength value of that attack is at least double the Toughness value (after modifiers) of that model.
as instant death uses the models toughness value, and not the majority toughness, or even the toughness you rolled against to wound, you would actually by the RAW ID the commander if a S8 wound or wound with ID was allocated to it in the commander+riptide unit.
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