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 Daedleh wrote:

Spoiler:

Elf Army List (1600 points):
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Single Drakon
Sylvin Kin Troop


I'm not a fan

Surely single models would fall under the same restrictions as Troops in the army selection process making this illegal?

Which reminds me that if single chariots etc stay, we need to make sure it covers that

 Daedleh wrote:
Ronnie meant to say that the option will be removed for most units (some units like chariots may retain the single model option).

This is because of the ability to spam single models. We either put the points up to stop the spam lists, which unfortunately makes them unattractive as single options, or remove them. We've chosen to remove them, however we're making sure that there's an equivalent Hero option for each of them. If you want to take a single model, like a drakon or werewolf then you can take the hero option instead.

I've got two single Ogres in my force. They're there because points, because Ogres have a very shallow pool/choice of troops to choose from anyway in their army, and an especially poor choice of options to use those last few points. Perhaps you could look into numerical limits, like WFB3 used to have (ie - 0-3 single Ogres) and ration them out by overall army force:

0-3 single Ogres (Drakons, Werewolves, Trolls, Elohi, etc) per thousand points in your army. Or however many points. 500, 750, 1250, whatever. Stops list spam and allows people to still retain a bit of flexibility and fun with a few single small-monsters crashing around without being gamebreaking.

Also, my (still unfinished, so not shown off yet) single ogres were pretty cool. A vintage GW Thrudd model and a Heresy Huge Boris. Worked well for a couple of kickarse ogres who could (kinda) fend for themselves without needing to be captains or army standards.

Baragash wrote:Surely single models would fall under the same restrictions as Troops in the army selection process making this illegal?

Which reminds me that if single chariots etc stay, we need to make sure it covers that

There aren't any restrictions on troops at the moment.

Azazelx wrote:I've got two single Ogres in my force. They're there because points, because Ogres have a very shallow pool/choice of troops to choose from anyway in their army, and an especially poor choice of options to use those last few points. Perhaps you could look into numerical limits, like WFB3 used to have (ie - 0-3 single Ogres) and ration them out by overall army force:

0-3 single Ogres (Drakons, Werewolves, Trolls, Elohi, etc) per thousand points in your army. Or however many points. 500, 750, 1250, whatever. Stops list spam and allows people to still retain a bit of flexibility and fun with a few single small-monsters crashing around without being gamebreaking.

Also, my (still unfinished, so not shown off yet) single ogres were pretty cool. A vintage GW Thrudd model and a Heresy Huge Boris. Worked well for a couple of kickarse ogres who could (kinda) fend for themselves without needing to be captains or army standards.

Ogres do need more options and I'm sure they'll get them. Restricting with the 0-3 just ensures that players will always just take 3 singles because why not? The small monsters can still go crashing around - they just take up a hero slot this time which does restrict them appropriately. Neither Basileans or Nature have single model options for their large infantry and they don't suffer for it.

I think you and I are playing very different types of KoW. We're not all playing the competition/tournament style game, and the Drakon list you quoted earlier isn't something I'd ever expect to see from the people I game with. As for "why not always take three?" I've got two, because that's what makes (thematic) sense for my army. But then, I have missile troops in my other forces, have standards and musicians and don't max out my artillery - like I said - playing differently to how your experience is.

As for Basileans and Nature not suffering for it. Fair enough, but they're a very different kettle of fish to the Ogres, where the core of the army is large infantry, and, yeah. - Very few troop options compared to Basileans or Nature forces - obviously Undead aren't hurting for options either.

I absolutely understand the need to remain "tournament friendly" (unlike other games!) as long as valid and fun options aren't removed for the sake of "tournament balance". Like I said, a simple "X number of Y per Z points" would cover that and stop spam lists.

Right now Ogres have a gak army list selection with bugger-all troop choices when compared to most other armies. Having a single Ogre (or two) crashing around for the 45 points gives the army a few more tactical options. If they take up a hero slot but remain the equivalent number of points as they are now, then that could work as well. Bumping the points cost and making them take a hero slot in an army with so few options is a lot more painful.

Not to mention 3 torsos and 6 heads for the entire range. But that one's not your fault.

I'm an Ogre player. Believe me I know the shortcomings of the Ogre list and will seek to correct them.

And semi-related. How about a proper Werewolves Army list separate to Undead? Kind of like how Ogres are part of KoM but also their own thing. A full werewolf army with a decent variety of troops would look awesome.

The way to do it now is unfortunately boring, cheesy and spammy. So it might look good in terms of models, but it's not fun to play or face. (And Ogre profiles are way too different to proxy very well).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedleh wrote:
I'm an Ogre player. Believe me I know the shortcomings of the Ogre list and will seek to correct them.

One request for consideration on that. - Please don't entirely reply on throwing more goblins in to offer the other options. I know they're a GW-legacy thing (gnoblars) but goblins in an ogre army aren't fun and feel like too much of a cop-out. My one concession to "red goblins" (spit!) in my Ogre army is a regiment of "Red Goblin Scouts" that are modelled as riderless giant wolves. I figure that a pack of vicious wolves fit well with the ogres thematically as their pets.

Despite having limited interest in KoW, the prospect of Abyssals/demons is kind of intriguing as I actually have very few of those despite having lots of fantasy armies. Did they Abyssals have their KoW rules published already or are they completely WIP?

I'm just a bit gun-shy as Mantic and concept art don't always leave the party together. I'd feel much more confident about getting a force if we could see some renders of the Succubi, as those tend to translate reasonably well. Those with routes to Mantic HQ: Is there any chance of renders being shown before the end of the campaign or should I go for the books (which can be used with my WHFB collection if nothing else) and wait for the pledge manager?

Abyssal rules are on the free rules section of Mantic's website.

The rules on the website are likely to be completely redone from scratch.

 Krinsath wrote:
Despite having limited interest in KoW, the prospect of Abyssals/demons is kind of intriguing as I actually have very few of those despite having lots of fantasy armies. Did they Abyssals have their KoW rules published already or are they completely WIP?

I'm just a bit gun-shy as Mantic and concept art don't always leave the party together. I'd feel much more confident about getting a force if we could see some renders of the Succubi, as those tend to translate reasonably well. Those with routes to Mantic HQ: Is there any chance of renders being shown before the end of the campaign or should I go for the books (which can be used with my WHFB collection if nothing else) and wait for the pledge manager?

Put down a buck now and decide if you want any of the models as part of shipping wave 3 or 4 next October. You know it'll work that way.
here's my shipping wave prediction:

Wave 1: Jan-Feb 2015(?) - Models that are done now (existing army deals)
Wave 2: June-Aug 2015 (?) - 2nd ed Rulebooks (plus whatever bits)
Wave 3: Septobervember(?) - New HIPS stuff, new restic stuff, new resin stuff.
Wave 4: Dec 2015-Mar 2016 - The delayed stuff. Plus final extra-late, last-minute extra add-on PM.

You're probably right Az, though I wouldn't mind getting Blaine and the books if nothing else. I do have a half-dozen WHFB armies that I could slot into KoW that have yet to see a game...

Just as a counterpoint- I would totally run a list like that pure Drakon one if given an opportunity to.

I tend to prefer larger individual units (or small squads of big stuff) as opposed to mobs or hoards of smaller similar figures- would the ogres be a good fit for me, army- wise?

Ogres would be good for you, yes. They currently have units of 3 and 6 models, though they'll be getting a horde of 12 in the new edition.

You'd still be able to run a list full of drakons if you wanted to, just that they'd have to be taken in troops of 3 or regiments of 6 rather than singles.

Ogre Hordes!?!?!?!?

Nice!

Is it pretty much confirmed that Banner/Musician options will be removed in 2nd edition? (For all armies, not just Ogres)

 Daedleh wrote:
Ogres would be good for you, yes. They currently have units of 3 and 6 models, though they'll be getting a horde of 12 in the new edition.

You'd still be able to run a list full of drakons if you wanted to, just that they'd have to be taken in troops of 3 or regiments of 6 rather than singles.

That's great news. I have more ogres than any sane person should own. Being able to field them in hordes kind of validates having that many.

Off topic, but KoW related, I'm still a KoW n00b, so I started a thread in the Mantic Section of the forums asking for KoW advice anyone is willing to share. Looking for Kings of War strategy advice Please feel free to share any insights you have on KoW strategies, modelling, collecting, etc...

 Alex C wrote:
Ogre Hordes!?!?!?!?

Nice!

Is it pretty much confirmed that Banner/Musician options will be removed in 2nd edition? (For all armies, not just Ogres)

Confirmed. They are purely aesthetic now. There will still be the magic artefacts granting the same bonuses, but you can model them freely.

 Daedleh wrote:

 Alex C wrote:
Ogre Hordes!?!?!?!?

Nice!

Is it pretty much confirmed that Banner/Musician options will be removed in 2nd edition? (For all armies, not just Ogres)

Confirmed. They are purely aesthetic now. There will still be the magic artefacts granting the same bonuses, but you can model them freely.

Will these magic artifacts be limited to one per army though? Or available to all units?

I'm pushing for two lists of artefacts - one common and one rare. Commons would be able to be taken as many times as you want while rares would be one per army. Still a limit of one per unit though.

So effectively, Banners/Musicians will actually be staying, just listed as "common magic artifacts" (and therefore allowing free reign to model how you wish)?

This doesn't seem to actually solve the issue with them, just rebranding. Hopefully I'm mistaken...

More that the old effects can be taken if you're dearly tied to having a +1/-1 nerve (probably with a points drop on the counts-as-standards) but they won't be unit command.

Wasn't the objective to remove banner/musician as everyone took them, they cancelled each other out and were therefore forgotten?

Making "magic artifacts" that do exactly the same thing and that are available to anyone doesn't solve the problem. Everyone will just take the artifacts now.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding...

 Daedleh wrote:
Ronnie meant to say that the option will be removed for most units (some units like chariots may retain the single model option).

This is because of the ability to spam single models. We either put the points up to stop the spam lists, which unfortunately makes them unattractive as single options, or remove them. We've chosen to remove them, however we're making sure that there's an equivalent Hero option for each of them. If you want to take a single model, like a drakon or werewolf then you can take the hero option instead.

That is awful. Good-bye single-troll speedbumps, which was the only reason to take them. Hopefully you guys have also a) made 3+ troll units VASTLY cheaper, b) made 3+ troll units have FAR more nerve, and c) made regeneration better for 3+ troll units.

Ugh, I know that's to prevent Drakon/Werewolf spam, but wouldn't the easiest thing to do would be to remove the single drakon/single werewolf combo? But even then, that's a poor compromise, as single large monsters are perfect to take for smaller 1000 or less army lists.

Incredibly disappointed.

No, people didn't take them meaning that units didn't have command models, or if you wanted to give your units command models then you had to explain to your opponent that they weren't wysiwyg.

Some people took *some* musicians, but people very very very very rarely took standards. That's probably not going to change much, but the option for those effects will still be there, even if it's just one per army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 judgedoug wrote:

 Daedleh wrote:
Ronnie meant to say that the option will be removed for most units (some units like chariots may retain the single model option).

This is because of the ability to spam single models. We either put the points up to stop the spam lists, which unfortunately makes them unattractive as single options, or remove them. We've chosen to remove them, however we're making sure that there's an equivalent Hero option for each of them. If you want to take a single model, like a drakon or werewolf then you can take the hero option instead.

That is awful. Good-bye single-troll speedbumps, which was the only reason to take them. Hopefully you guys have also a) made 3+ troll units VASTLY cheaper, b) made 3+ troll units have FAR more nerve, and c) made regeneration better for 3+ troll units.

Ugh, I know that's to prevent Drakon/Werewolf spam, but wouldn't the easiest thing to do would be to remove the single drakon/single werewolf combo? But even then, that's a poor compromise, as single large monsters are perfect to take for smaller 1000 or less army lists.

Incredibly disappointed.

On come on, of course we're going to sort the points out for 3+ troll units. Have you missed the message that one of the main points for doing 2nd ed was to fix points values? Also single drakon/single werewolf spam might be the most broken lists but single troll and single ogre spam would be just as bad.

Thanks for the clarification Daedleh!

I appreciate the work taken to make units of 3+ large infantry more viable than multiple single models, KoW being "mass battle" and all...

 Daedleh wrote:
Restricting with the 0-3 just ensures that players will always just take 3 singles because why not? The small monsters can still go crashing around - they just take up a hero slot this time which does restrict them appropriately. Neither Basileans or Nature have single model options for their large infantry and they don't suffer for it.

This is a 100% acceptable solution. If the single monsters retain the same role as they do now but merely take up a Hero slot, then everything is perfect. Both my Orc and my Goblin army use 3 individual trolls specifically as speedbumps and flank guards; making them take a Hero slot (but for roughly the same points) should not affect army composition too greatly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedleh wrote:

On come on, of course we're going to sort the points out for 3+ troll units. Have you missed the message that one of the main points for doing 2nd ed was to fix points values? Also single drakon/single werewolf spam might be the most broken lists but single troll and single ogre spam would be just as bad.

One of the earliest ideas I heard for fixing single monsters was giving them the negatives of Individual without the benefits - as in, you can overrun them when they are defeated (but still have flanks/rears/etc).

Just in concept, anything that is tough enough to fight masses of infantry on it's own is probably more "heroic" than "infantry"

Also where on earth were you getting troll speed bumps from? You realise that units have 2 pivots and can just go around your trolls right?

 adamsouza wrote:
Just in concept, anything that is tough enough to fight masses of infantry on it's own is probably more "heroic" than "infantry"

One would also assume that, as with any mass-battles game, we are operating on a 10:1 or 20:1 ratio (so the "regiment" of 20 guys is 200-400 dudes), so a single Ogre would be a platoon of 10-20 ogres. There's as much reason for a single big infantry to exist as there are for 5-man troops (and, uh, 3-man troops for Wights, but I'm assuming that's changing to match the numbering standards, or they are becoming Large Infantry)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedleh wrote:
Also where on earth were you getting troll speed bumps from? You realise that units have 2 pivots and can just go around your trolls right?

I'm not sure what you mean. Screen your Morax with a troll, bait the enemy to charge the troll and kill it. Morax roll in with +1 CS or +1 Melee magic item and proceed to annihilate any unit in the game with only having sacrificed a 45 point troll.
You can premeasure so you keep the Morax outside of charge range but the troll within. Either the enemy charges the troll, or waits, and the troll charges and puts damage on the enemy and they'll re-engage the following turn, after which the Morax are charging in anyway.

I work on the weird assumption that one troll is one troll.

EDIT that isn't a pun-based insult, I was just using trolls specifically for this situation.

Or they can just run around your troll with the 2 pivots? A troll isn't wide enough to stop a charge to the Morax and you don't have to charge the nearest target. If you want to screen your morax then use an ax or sniff troop which are wide enough to protect it.