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Hey, just got through a test run of my tournament list. My opponent was playing 1500 to my 1250 (although I did make a mistake with my list as I was meant to be playing 1150).





Red Scorpions

HQ

Sevrin Loth -175

Chapter master - Bike + Artificer armour + Storm shield+ power fist - 210


Troops

Bike squad x 5 - 2 Grav guns, v.s. apothecary - 140

Bike squad x 5 - 2 Grav guns, v.s. apothecary - 140

Bike squad x 5 - 1 Grav gun- 115


Heavy Support

Devastator centurions x 3 - Grav Cannons - 250


Allies

Tigarius - 165

Troops

Scouts - 55




Grey knights


Grandmaster - Psy-cannon, force halberd.

Libraian - ml3, Liber daemonia, TH



Troops

Terminators x 5 - Psy-cannon

Fast attack

10 x interceptors - 2 x incinerators, TH


Heavy support

2 x Dread knight - H. Psy-cannon, H. incinerator


Allies

Vindicator assassin





I get 4 on strategic, loth has invisibility, terrify and shrouding.

Tigarius has gate, sanctuary and hammer hand.


The Grey Knights roll on GK powers, plus divination.





Deployment

6 x 4 board with a decent amount of terrain, line of sight blocking ruin in the middle with a few hills and creators scattered around. There's 4 objectives, each worth 4 points, each at one corner of the board.


I've got first turn I keep everything off aside from my cent star, which I hide behind a small cottage. My opponent deploys his dread-knights and interceptors on the left and assassin on the right. I figure with invisibility on turn 1, I'll be untouchable.





Turn one


And.... I get seized on. I'm in utter dismay, not only am I out pointed but I my opponent just stole the initiative.


GK

He decides to go all out against my death star, jumping his knights and interceptors up. His terminators don't come in (thank god). He unloads everything onto my men, I brace myself for the storm and... I lose one centurion and my CM + Tig loose a wound . I get lucky, although I did make a mistake and assumed my cents automatically got the free apothecary upgrade (which they dont).

SM

I move my cents before casting invisibility (which gets denied) gate and sanctuary, I land in the centre right, just in range of his dreadknight. Since I blocked his sanctuary last turn I shoot my remaining grav cents into him, finishing him off for FB. My CM lands his orbital bombardment right on the interceptors killing 4.

Turn 2

GK

His terminators come in. He shuffles around his remaining units and gets a few of his powers off. His assassin goes for a turbo pen against my cents, hitting but failing to wound. His terminator unit unload their psy-cannons into the star, but the shots bounce off, with only my CM taking a wound.

SM

Everything comes in, I edge my bikes towards his last dread-knight/ interceptors. My cents march up to the objective in the top right. I get my invisibility with 4 6's ( from 5 dice!) and loth takes a wound. I then terrify and shriek his assassin, he proceeds to roll a 14 and promptly fails his invulnerable saves . My cents wipe his terminators, leaving only his Grandmaster and Librarian. My bikes demolish what's left of his forces, with only his fleeing thunder-hammer interceptor left on the board.


Turn 3

GK

He decides to move his grandmaster and librarian up, his interceptors face off my bikes. He casts force and skips to the assault phase, charging in his last units. His grandmaster instant kills my CM and is slain in return. His last interceptor takes out a bike and we call it there, giving my opponent a bit of dignity.





Red Scorpion victory!



Definitely a few mistakes on my part, but even if my Cent star would of got wiped out I still would of tabled my opponent.

Yeah that's a pretty nasty 1250 list

I was actually having this discussion with a friend recently - I do not think the red scorpions can take V.S. Apothecary's in their bike squads due to the wording in the book.

So far because of the wording in the book we somewhat agreed that only Tactical Squads can take the Apothecary Upgrade because they have the wording "Veteran Sergeant" - where as the bikers can only take a "Veteran Biker Sergeant" and the red scorpions specifically state that it can only apply to Veteran Sergeants.

Your Grey Knight friend was really light on troops even for 1250pts. Thank you for the battle report though really enjoyed it.

fidel wrote:
I was actually having this discussion with a friend recently - I do not think the red scorpions can take V.S. Apothecary's in their bike squads due to the wording in the book.

So far because of the wording in the book we somewhat agreed that only Tactical Squads can take the Apothecary Upgrade because they have the wording "Veteran Sergeant" - where as the bikers can only take a "Veteran Biker Sergeant" and the red scorpions specifically state that it can only apply to Veteran Sergeants.

Your wording is a little off, but you are correct. Only tactical squad sergeants can be apothecaries.

How I see it, is that a veteran biker sergeant is just a sub-category of veteran sergeant, therefore it still counts as a veteran sergeant.

"Any tactical squad sergeant or veteran sergeant with the chapter tactics (Red Scorpions) rule"

Doomtrout wrote:
"Any tactical squad sergeant or veteran sergeant with the chapter tactics (Red Scorpions) rule"

Yeah there is no other interpretation. Only Tactical squad or Veteran Sergeants can take that rule. You COULDDDDD try to make the argument for an assault squad, which has the wording "veteran sergeant," however because it is a "Bike Veteran Sergeant" it cannot be an apothecary, just like a scout veteran sergeant cannot be an apothecary.

Ok by that logical...

1. Only men are mortal (i.e. to be a man is by nec. condition to be mortal).

2. Non sub-category of men (i.e. Greek men, English men, men with beards, men without beards etc) are mortal.

3. Therefore no sub-category of men are men (i.e. a man with a beard is not a man!).


A bike veteran sergeant is still a veteran sergeant, just on a bike. Just like Barack Obama is still Barack Obama when he's on a bike.

 iddy00711 wrote:
Ok by that logical...

1. Only men are mortal (i.e. to be a man is by nec. condition to be mortal).

2. Non sub-category of men (i.e. Greek men, English men, men with beards, men without beards etc) are mortal.

3. Therefore no sub-category of men are men (i.e. a man with a beard is not a man!).


A bike veteran sergeant is still a veteran sergeant, just on a bike. Just like Barack Obama is still Barack Obama when he's on a bike.

So you're saying the Terminator Veteran Sargent gets it?

"'Any tactical squad sergeant or veteran sergeant with the chapter tactics (Red Scorpions) rule"

Being that there are Tactical Squad Sergeants, and there ARE ALSO veteran sergeants in Tactical Squads, it only references that type of unit. Had it said "Any tactical squad sergeant or any other variant of veteran sergeant with the chapter tactics (Red Scorpions) rule" then there would not be a discussion - but the sentence is constructed in a way that says only tactical squads



http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/622603.page

No it doesn't, if it said 'Any tactical squad sergeant or any tactical squad veteran sergeant...' then there would be no ambiguity.

It does IMPLY only tactical veteran sergeants are liable for the upgrade, but implication of the text and technical wording are 2 different things.

Just to be clear...

∃ (x)( (S(x) v V(x)) → A(x))

Where S = Tactical squad sergeant, V = Veteran sergeant and A = it is possible to be upgraded to apothecary