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JinxDragon wrote:
Can you quote the Rule for Point 3?

The one I am thinking of states:
Units do not confer the Deep Strike special rule onto a Transport vehicle they are embarked inside. A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not.
- Deep Strike and Transports

Nothing about the Unit within gaining the Deep Strike Special Rule, just that the Transport does not lose access to Deep Strike if the Unit inside lacks this Special Rule.

When the embarked unit arrives via a Deep Striking Transport, the unit is considered to have arrived via Deep Strike for all rules purposes, with the additional ability to disembark upon arrival (a movement ability not normally available to Deep Striking units). You cannot deny that an embarked unit that just arrived vie Deep Strike did not in fact Deep Strike regardless of whether or not the unit itself has the USR. The Vehicle has the USR. Per the Deep Striking Transport rules, the Transport must have the Deep Strike USR, and the embarked unit may not confer its USR on to the Transport. However, also per the Deep Striking Trabsport rules, the embarked unit will still Deep Strike with the transport regardless of whether or not the unit has the USR. This is an implied conference of the Transport's USR to its embarked passengers. If the embarked passenger do not receive the confer Deep Strike USR, then the embarked passengers will preven the Deep Striking Transport from being placed into Deep Strike Reserves. As this is not the case, and the embarked passengers gain the benefit of the Deep Strike USR from the Transport, then the Transport in fact does confer its USR onto its passengers.

Red_Drake wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Rebuttal - you still haven't proven they are one unit. They make one roll, but are not the same unit. The combined unit rule doesn't state they are, so they aren't.

If a unit from a NSF is in deep strike reserves, you can roll for it turn 1.
The purifiers (or whatever gk unit you put in a drop pod) are in deep strike reserves. You can't deny that

Red Drake has it. While the Transport and embarked unit(s) are not the same unit, they are treated as occupying the same space, filling the same foot print on the table, effected by the same movement, and rolling together as one for deployment from reserves. Also, there are shared rules between the Transport and it's embarked unit(s) such as Deep Striking that imply further shared rules taken on a case by case basis. Rites of Teleportation gives NSF units a blanket permission to change the turn of arrive roll from 2nd Turn to 1st Turn. As shown with attached ICs, thus benefit is confer to all members of the unit per the Combined Unit rules. Further, we can see that the Deep Strike USR is conferred from the Transport to its passengers, per both the Deep Strike USR and the Combined Unut rules. As such, a NSF unit in a Deep Striking Transport will still benefit from Rites, roll once for the entire combined unit, and roll on Turn 1 per Rites.

And no, Stormravens no longer have Deep Strike.

SJ

Red_Drake wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Rebuttal - you still haven't proven they are one unit. They make one roll, but are not the same unit. The combined unit rule doesn't state they are, so they aren't.

If a unit from a NSF is in deep strike reserves, you can roll for it turn 1.
The purifiers (or whatever gk unit you put in a drop pod) are in deep strike reserves. You can't deny that

I haven't done. I have shown, however, that you cannot roll for the pod. Doing so is breaking a rule. And, as they must arrive together, you cannot break one rule to evoke another, especially as it is may for th nsf.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Red_Drake wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Rebuttal - you still haven't proven they are one unit. They make one roll, but are not the same unit. The combined unit rule doesn't state they are, so they aren't.

If a unit from a NSF is in deep strike reserves, you can roll for it turn 1.
The purifiers (or whatever gk unit you put in a drop pod) are in deep strike reserves. You can't deny that

I haven't done. I have shown, however, that you cannot roll for the pod. Doing so is breaking a rule. And, as they must arrive together, you cannot break one rule to evoke another, especially as it is may for th nsf.

You are not rolling for just the Pod, you are rolling for the Pod and the NSF unit embarked.

SJ

And the pod does not have the nsf rule. The pod MUST arrive turn two, unless an explicit, specific rule states oth wise.

Please, cite the SPECIFIC rule stating the POD explicitly can arrive. Page and graph.

When the embarked unit arrives via a Deep Striking Transport, the unit is considered to have arrived via Deep Strike for all rules purposes, with the additional ability to disembark upon arrival (a movement ability not normally available to Deep Striking units). You cannot deny that an embarked unit that just arrived vie Deep Strike did not in fact Deep Strike regardless of whether or not the unit itself has the USR. The Vehicle has the USR. Per the Deep Striking Transport rules, the Transport must have the Deep Strike USR, and the embarked unit may not confer its USR on to the Transport. However, also per the Deep Striking Trabsport rules, the embarked unit will still Deep Strike with the transport regardless of whether or not the unit has the USR. This is an implied conference of the Transport's USR to its embarked passengers. If the embarked passenger do not receive the confer Deep Strike USR, then the embarked passengers will preven the Deep Striking Transport from being placed into Deep Strike Reserves. As this is not the case, and the embarked passengers gain the benefit of the Deep Strike USR from the Transport, then the Transport in fact does confer its USR onto its passengers.
- Jeffersonian000

There is a reason I asked you to quote the very Rules that supported this concept, because it has been debated in previous threads that this concept may not be correct from a Rule as Written perspective.

So we will jump straight to the core of the debate. If you can provide me with a set of Rule Interactions that prove the Unit inside "is considered to have arrived via Deep Strike for all rules purposes" it would solve a great deal of problems debating this point in the future. I do not know of such a Rule however, and I think it would stick in my faulty memory as I despise open-ended Exception Clauses and have ranted about Independent Characters so much in the past because they have one. So, please do everyone a favour of providing the Rule as Written support that I have over looked. Feel free to quote straight from the book, as the Digital Age makes Page and Graph more harder then it used to be and I have given up on that method of Rule quoting.

As has already been cited on the first page of this thread by Angelic:

Angelic wrote:
Drop Pod Assault: "Drop Pods and units emarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves."

Rites of Teleportation: "Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Formation that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one."

Combined Reserve Units: " In either case when making a Reserve Roll for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

At the end of DPA "The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally."

And, "Arriving by Deep Strike":
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves."

The logic is that we have a combine unit with a number of rules that do not conflict, that change how the basic rules of game interact with the combined unit. One part of the "unit" allows for a chance at arrival on Turn 1, as long as the rest of the "unit" is arriving via Deep Strike. Another part of the "unit" allows the entire "unit" to arrive via Deep Strike, regardless of whether or not the rest of the "unit" has the Deep Strike USR.

It would be one thing if Rites of Teleportation actually required the unit to arrive via Teleportation, but it doesn't.

SJ

None of those Rules relate to what I asked you to prove:
The unit is considered to have arrived via Deep Strike for all rules purposes,
-Jeffersonian000

As far as I am concerned, there are a few Rule Interactions within Reserves which are 'broken.' What you stated above caught my attention because a Rule which literally states 'for all Rule purposes' could solve some of the issues I have seen from a pure Rule as Written perspective. Therefore I simply request again, please provide this Rule as it will be needed to fix a few problems not even addressed within this Thread. Should you want me to go into more detail about how it is broken Reserve Rules are, I will ask you to consider is the following before we even begin: How does a Unit in Reserve begins Embarked on a Transport.

It is something very basic but some of the broken Rule Interactions begin with that single Rule.

Just a bunch of "show me this" "still haven't shown it to me". And no one even responded to what I said.

Use better language, motyak

JinxDragon, you are attempting an ad hominem by focusing on my paraphrase as if I was quoting a rule. The rules in question have been cited. We both know that the 40k rules set is not a tightly written rubic, but a loosely written set of exceptions. Units can start embarked in reserves because there are implied examples of units embarked starting in reserves such as found in the Drop Pod Assault rules. Where is it stated that models cannot move through other models?

Per RAW, a combined unit deploys together, moves together, and is effected by some rules as if it is a single unit, such as rolling one Die to arrive from reserves. This is specifically spelled out in the previously cited Combined Unit rules.

Rites of Teleportation allows a NSF unit in Deep Strike Reserves to roll for arrival on Turn 1 instead of Turn 2.

Drop Pod Assault allows for a unit embarked on a Drop Pod to start the game in Deep Strike Reserves, and for half of the Drops to arrive Turn 1 without rolling, while the remaining a pods roll for arrival starting on Turn 2.

Combined Units allows for embarked units to roll one Die to enter play from reserves rather that rolling individual Dice for the unit, the Transport, and any attached Independent Characters. As such, the combined unit will enter play on a single Die roll, with no restrictions listed that deny other unit rules from effecting the Die roll such as Comm Relays, or Character special rules that change when the Die is rolled or what the target number is.

When taken as a whole, the combined unit can roll to arrive on Turn 1 due to having a NSF unit in DS Reserves and due to only needing a single Die roll to enter play. The combined unit in this case is a NSF Putifier squad embarked on a Space Wolf non-Dedicated Drop Pod.

SJ

 hyozanman wrote:
Let's look at the drop pod assault rule. I don't have the marine codex on me, but doesn't it clearly state the remaining drop pods get put into reserve? So maybe you can elect to not use that USR for the space wolves pod but then you would only have one pod come in automatically. For example if you had 3 pods and two were normal pods and you had one space wolves pod with your strike squad. You would choose the order that special rules happen. You choose to have the NSF pod roll for reserves, then you get half your pods (2 remaining) which is only one. Anyways by everyone's definition of transports and this rule, I can stick centurions into a grey knight stormraven and deepstrike them all in turn one? Can stormravens deep strike still?

The Drop Pods are already in reserves so I'm not sure what you're getting at. We're debating whether it is possible to use the Rites of Teleportation with a Drop Pod if a Grey Knights unit is on-board. The order in which Drop Pod Assault rule triggers and the Rites of Teleportation rule triggers doesn't matter if you can't use Rites on a Drop Pod.

Stormravens can't deep strike so they don't get Rites of Teleportation.

 Master Shake wrote:

Some people say that you aren't rolling for the unit, but rather the pod. Rites of teleportation specifically allows you to roll for the unit in deep strike reserve.

Thoughts?

Some people are right. Outflank and infiltrate explicitly confer themselves to their transports (DT at least), but RoT has no such transitive property.
If I load up an outflanking or infiltrating unit into a SW Pod, does that mean I can infiltrate or outflank the pod onto the board?

No. Why not? Because half the pods (rounding down) can not come in T1. Even if other rules said they can, there's a restriction on how many can come in T1.

Then there's the whole units in a NSF "detachment" topic vs. the SW 'pods, but we can leave that out of this thread since your goal of getting 3/3 Drop Pods in T1 is moot byt he drop pod assault restrictions, even if there were no other issues (such as RoT not being conveyed to to a SW pod).

Jeffersonian000,
I do apologize as I did not realize you where making an Authors Intended argument based on what you believed the Authors meant by these words, and not what they actually Written, when you stated 'for all Rule Purposes.'

In my defense, words like 'for all Rule purposes' are pretty definite and scream to the reader that... well... the Written Rule's themselves forced to follow this logic. For something to have that level of control over Written Rules it would have to be an accepted fundamental concept, such as Specific vs General, or have some very specific Rule Support that leads to no other conclusion. Given that the Rule in question is one that I believe is 'broken,' it is more then understandable that I requested some sort of Rule as Written support for your logical concept. I was hopeful that you actually had found some when other posters here, my self included, have failed because a Counts As clause for Units Embarked on a Deep Striking Transport is exactly what we need to fix these problems!

Given the amount of damage that does occur thanks to a Rule which has a 'for all Rule Purpose' clause, I am loath to accept one via 'Authors Intent...'

So, you have gone full ad Hominem, JinxDragon. <slow clap>

Deciding that you don't know what the word "paraphrase" means and attacking my choice of terminology is in fact an attempt to derail my argument via an implied attack on me rather than an actual attempt to argue against my points.

As such, I will ignore your posts that do not actually address the topic. Good day to you, sir!

SJ

Jeffersonian000,
The concern I had over your post was the lack of Rule Support for the concept of 'Embarked Units counts as Arriving Via Deep Strike with their Transport' because it is a symptom of a much larger problem....

I really was hopeful that you had found the much over-looked Rule which would fix these issues but, as you are now claiming that you have been personally attacked, I have to conclude that you do not have that Rule Quote for me. Let me now take this moment to address what you felt was a personal attack by pointing out the obvious: Any argument based on paraphrased Rules is 'Authors Intent,' the only way to have a Rule as Written argument is to quote the unmodified Rule you are using to come to your conclusions. I have no issue with 'Author Intended' arguments to solve clear problems with the Written Rules, this situation a prime example as it is obvious the Embarked Unit is Arriving from Reserves somehow, but the issue with Author Intended arguments is the fact so many people claim that their personal insight into the Authors Intent is the only 'Rule as Written' answer.

If you wish to claim Rule as Written support at this point in time the answer is simple:
Post any Rule which shows a Unit Disembarking from a Transport, which just Arrived via Deep Strike, count as having Arrived via Deep Strike themselves....
No Paraphrasing, please.

As above.

This is very much linked to the last time this came up, but again comes down to: 1 unit MUST roll turn 2. 1 unit CAN roll turn 1. Find allowance to break the rule that the DP must roll turn 2. Nothing cited so far *actually* allows that. All it states is you make one roll - it does not allow you to make a roll when the other unti couldnt ordinarily make the roll.

JinxDragon wrote:
Jeffersonian000,
If you wish to claim Rule as Written support at this point in time the answer is simple:
Post any Rule which shows a Unit Disembarking from a Transport, which just Arrived via Deep Strike, count as having Arrived via Deep Strike themselves....

I'm not sure why this continues to be brought up in the context of this rules discussion. Rites of Teleportation does not require that the unit arrive "via" or "by" Deep Strike, merely that they arrive "from" Deep Strike Reserves, which I believe there can be no dispute about.

I would also put forth that neither the Reserve rules nor Rites of Teleportation require that you roll for the Pod as the rules for Combined units state "...in which case they will arrive together." If you are rolling for the unit, then this rule would allow the arrival of the transport on the same roll. You then go to the Deep Strike (and Pod) rules for how they Arrive.

Angelic,
I wasn't the one who stated:
When the embarked unit arrives via a Deep Striking Transport, the unit is considered to have arrived via Deep Strike for all rules purposes...
- Jeffersonian000

While requesting someone provide Rule as Written support for the above could be considered 'out of context,' as it does not specifically relate to Rites of Teleportation at all, it never would of occurred if that statement was not made. Given that such a statement would fix a great deal of problems surrounding the Deep Strike Special Rule, it is only reasonable to ask for the person making said statement to quote Written Rules supporting for the concept even if it does not directly relate to the question at hand. This would occur in any post regardless of the context being discussed, as any statement claiming 'as per the Rules' so often is going to have someone requesting to see said Rules.

At the very least, it will confirm the paraphrase version is accurate would it not?

Angelic - if you are rolling for the unit, but the pod has no permission to arrive, how are you providing that permission?

Page and graph please.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Angelic - if you are rolling for the unit, but the pod has no permission to arrive, how are you providing that permission?

Page and graph please.

Don't have page # because I use the iBooks, but the permission is provided in the Combined unit paragraph by the same sentences I quoted above, stating:

" In either case when making a Reserve Roll for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle."

-and-

"Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together."

The unit is placed in DSR along with the DP. RoT gives the unit permission to roll beginning Turn 1. The Reserve rules state that the unit arrives together with its Transport. The Transport's rules state how the arrival is accomplished.

Again, you can only make one dice roll. You cannot make the dice roll for the combined untit, as the combined unit MUST arrive together, and the drop pod CANNOT arrive with the unit

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, you can only make one dice roll. You cannot make the dice roll for the combined untit, as the combined unit MUST arrive together, and the drop pod CANNOT arrive with the unit

How so? Where does it state that the Drop Pod must arrive Turn 2? Does the Drip Pod Assault rule not state that any Apoc that does not arrive on Turn 1 will arrive normally per the reserve rules?

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, you can only make one dice roll. You cannot make the dice roll for the combined untit, as the combined unit MUST arrive together, and the drop pod CANNOT arrive with the unit

How so? Where does it state that the Drop Pod must arrive Turn 2? Does the Drip Pod Assault rule not state that any Apoc that does not arrive on Turn 1 will arrive normally per the reserve rules?

SJ

ANd the normal reserve rules start rolling turn 2. Not turn 1. Thank you for proving the point.

Angelic,
Something else to take notice with that rule:
Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together.

There are three major problems with the above Rule, some of them in 'black hole' territory which is why I consider Reserves to be broken the moment any Rule tries to interact with it.
1) The Rule does not inform us how to go about Embarking the Unit, only that we much specify which Units have done so
- The default Embarking method would require us to prove they are 2 inch from the access point, during their movement phase, which is impossible to do with Reserves.
- Unlike Transports, Independent Characters have instructions telling us how to 'join while in Reserves' so they do not encounter as many problems as simply Embarking.
2) The Rule can only be evoked on Units which are already in Reserves
- Assuming this Rule simply grants some sort of 'Embarked Status,' the underline portion of the Rule limits the Subject Matter to Units already in Reserves
- This is a problem for several other Rule Interactions, but Drop Pods are the most obvious as they require the Embarked Unit to be placed into Deep Strike Reserves before permission to Embark is "granted" by this Rule...
3) It does not grant permission to arrived by the same Method as has been claimed
- Arriving "together" is too ambiguous, it could easily relate to the Timing as it does to the Method.
- The Rule's context is directly related to the rolling of a single dice to see if they all Arrive that Turn, which indicates more Timing then Method.
- Other Rules take time to specifically mention the Method of Arrival when they grant Units permission to arrive together, usually to state 'these Units must Arrive by the same Method.'

I am quite willing to accept that the Authors Intended for Embarked Units to arrive using the same method, some of the redundant clauses within the Deep Strike Special Rule heavily suggest that is so, but it would just be nice if they actually had written that!

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, you can only make one dice roll. You cannot make the dice roll for the combined untit, as the combined unit MUST arrive together, and the drop pod CANNOT arrive with the unit

How so? Where does it state that the Drop Pod must arrive Turn 2? Does the Drip Pod Assault rule not state that any Apoc that does not arrive on Turn 1 will arrive normally per the reserve rules?

SJ

ANd the normal reserve rules start rolling turn 2. Not turn 1. Thank you for proving the point.

Except that Rites alters which turn arrival may occur on, and combined units allows for the unit with Rites to roll on turn 1 and take the Transport with it. You have not provided any support for your assertion that the Drop Pod must arrive on Turn 2.

As to JinxDragon's assertion that the Reserves rules break down once a unit is embarked while in reserves, we are already advised that a unit may start the game embark on transport, that units may start in Reserves, and that units in Reserves that will enter via Deep Strike will do so from Deep Strike Reserves. Stating that there are no rules for it when there are rules for it is a bit like ignoring what's right in front of you.

By the way, can anyone cite which rule states that models cannot move through other models? Anyone? Burller?

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
and take the Transport with it.

That's the bit that needs proving.

Can you post any other Rules then the one below?
Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together,

I have already addressed why this Rule does not actually grant us permission to Embark a Unit into a Transport prior to being placed into Reserves. As it addresses Units in Reserve, it is impossible to apply the Rule to any units which is yet in Reserves. As the Rule also contains the words are embarked, it is also impossible to apply the Rule to Units which are not yet Embarked on a Transport. This Rule can only function after the Unit has already Embarked and is already in Reserves, in order to force us to announce which ones are 'arriving together,' so we still need specific permission to Embark using a non-default Embarking method. Sort of like how we have instructions on how an Independent Character's Join Units while both are in Reserves.

As one basic Rule Interaction has been addressed so poorly from a pure Rule as Written perspective, how can we be certain what the Author Intended when the Rules get four or five interactions deep?

Reminder:
It is clear that the Author intended for Units to Embark either in Reserves, or prior to Reserves, I am simply highlighting that they have done a poor job when it comes to the Written Rule for such.

And where does it state that models cannot move through other models?

Answer that and you answer your Embarktion in Reserves question.

SJ

A model cannot move within 1" of an enemy model unless they are charging into close combat in the Assault phase, and can never move or pivot (see below) through another model (friend or foe) at any time. To move past, they must go around.
- Models in the Way

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

 Master Shake wrote:

Some people say that you aren't rolling for the unit, but rather the pod. Rites of teleportation specifically allows you to roll for the unit in deep strike reserve.

Thoughts?

Some people are right. Outflank and infiltrate explicitly confer themselves to their transports (DT at least), but RoT has no such transitive property.
If I load up an outflanking or infiltrating unit into a SW Pod, does that mean I can infiltrate or outflank the pod onto the board?

No. Why not? Because half the pods (rounding down) can not come in T1. Even if other rules said they can, there's a restriction on how many can come in T1.

Then there's the whole units in a NSF "detachment" topic vs. the SW 'pods, but we can leave that out of this thread since your goal of getting 3/3 Drop Pods in T1 is moot byt he drop pod assault restrictions, even if there were no other issues (such as RoT not being conveyed to to a SW pod).

[/quote

So, rites of teleportation and drop pod assault both occur at the same time. In this case, the controlling player decides the order. After resolving drop pod assault, you move onto rites of teleportation which has different limitations.

Drop pod assault only limits the number of pods that arrive using that rule.

 Master Shake wrote:
Let's say I take 3 units of purifiers from the nemesis strike force and put them all in Space wolf drop pods.

Turn one, drop pod assault happens and 2 arrive automatically. Can I then roll for the 3rd unit using the rites of teleportation special rule?

I would say yes, since rites of teleportation doesn't stipulate that they have the deep strike special rule, only that they be in deep strike reserve.

I encourage everyone to carefully consider the wording of the rules in question before commenting.

Some people say that you aren't rolling for the unit, but rather the pod. Rites of teleportation specifically allows you to roll for the unit in deep strike reserve.

Thoughts?

3 Purifiers are NOT allowed for Nemesis Force Detachment, since you can only get 2 Heavy Support Choice. Changing the Purifiers into some other unit and I will say yes, the rule of the occupants will transfer to their transport.