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 GKTiberius wrote:
I see where you are going with that, like a Dr. Manhattan feel from Watchmen. If the flaw in his plans were his sons, and his compassion for them above all else, why didn't he either create new Primarchs or clones of the existing Primarchs. If the Emperor knew they had been taken by chaos, wouldn't it stand to reason that at least some of them, *cough* Loregar *cough*, could have been tainted by chaos?Also he could have change his military structure model after the Primarchs were stolen. That seems like a pretty big hole in his plan

According to Chaos, Emps only created the original primarchs with their help (then betrayed them by keeping the primarchs to himself to create an atheist galaxy)

So that's your answer to the "new primarchs" question, if Chaos is telling the truth (which they obviously might not be). Emps didn't create new primarchs because he couldn't (obviously the Chaos gods wouldn't help him create a second set after he betrayed them).

As for the 2nd about taint... maybe Emps figured they were still infallible regardless. Or maybe he knew they could be tainted but that he could simply deal with it when push came to shove (It's speculated in-universe that was the case with Angron). Or maybe he was blinded by his love as a father (as much as a dick Emps was to his sons, he did tolerate having them ALL along even when some of them might have been better off just executed. It's arguable that only a loving father would put up with Angron and Kurze as opposed to outright saying "Yea, um... no. Death for you.", for example. In fact, possibly Emps allegedly saying "Death for you" for Kurze after the Heresy was such an egregious act of a father that it was where a decent portion of Kurze's vindication came from). There's lots of possible reasons why Emps put up with the primarchs, even if those reasons aren't revealed to us (and again, in Angron's case, the fluff actually addresses this by having various in-story people wonder why he did)

If the Emperor hadn't united humanity, then other Human Empires (like the Disaporex, Interex, Auretian Technocracy, etc.) would have slowly grown to become major galactic powers. I can only see the Technocracy being either absorbed into another human empire peacefully (as they wanted to be when Horus came to them) or being annihilated by some kind of massive alien invasion. Chaos would be fended off in the same manner as it had in the 10k years since the Eldar Empire had fallen. Chaos may have had puppet empires and immense power, but it wouldn't be nearly as powerful as it is in current fluff (due to power it attained from Traitor Legions).
Also, most of these Empires were defeated by two or more large Legions (Luna Wolves were a large Legion), not just Horus's Legion. Also, the Legions were literally the most powerful forces in the galaxy (Primarch + Astartes = total pownage), and the human empires they defeated were very much like the Tau Empire in size and power.
Also, at the very least, the Diasporex would have survived due to the fact that it was large, powerful, and completely fleet-based. If not for the IMperial interference, it would have continued to assimilate humans and aliens alike until it was incredibly massive and incredibly powerful.
Eldar also would have helped out humans a lot more if not for Big E's intervention and turning humans into total dicks.
Emperor does seem to be humanity's greatest enemy, even though he tried his best to save it. If his plan had worked out, then Humanity would have been infinitely powerful and undefeatable (Imperial Webway), but GW decided to make the Emprah a total dumbass and made him completely lackadaisical and foolish.

 dusara217 wrote:
If the Emperor hadn't united humanity, then other Human Empires (like the Disaporex, Interex, Auretian Technocracy, etc.) would have slowly grown to become major galactic powers. I can only see the Technocracy being either absorbed into another human empire peacefully (as they wanted to be when Horus came to them) or being annihilated by some kind of massive alien invasion. Chaos would be fended off in the same manner as it had in the 10k years since the Eldar Empire had fallen. Chaos may have had puppet empires and immense power, but it wouldn't be nearly as powerful as it is in current fluff (due to power it attained from Traitor Legions).
Also, most of these Empires were defeated by two or more large Legions (Luna Wolves were a large Legion), not just Horus's Legion. Also, the Legions were literally the most powerful forces in the galaxy (Primarch + Astartes = total pownage), and the human empires they defeated were very much like the Tau Empire in size and power.
Also, at the very least, the Diasporex would have survived due to the fact that it was large, powerful, and completely fleet-based. If not for the IMperial interference, it would have continued to assimilate humans and aliens alike until it was incredibly massive and incredibly powerful.
Eldar also would have helped out humans a lot more if not for Big E's intervention and turning humans into total dicks.
Emperor does seem to be humanity's greatest enemy, even though he tried his best to save it. If his plan had worked out, then Humanity would have been infinitely powerful and undefeatable (Imperial Webway), but GW decided to make the Emprah a total dumbass and made him completely lackadaisical and foolish.

The Imperium loses swathes of space the size of those empires every year at least, more likely every month.

Without the Emperor (mostly) uniting humanity, humans would be all but wiped out. They would not be a major power in comparison to all the others, and would probably only exist on a few backwaters / in small empires that would crumble as soon as a serious threat came along (ork Waagh, Tyranid fleet, Necron Tomb waking up. Pick your poison).

"Power flows from the barrel of a gun."

- Mao Zedong

"Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely"

- Lord Acton

Maybe it's just impossible to be a benevolent Monarch of the entire galaxy?

The Necrons are now awakening because the Silent King encountered the Tyranids in the void between galaxies, turned around, and came back to the Milky Way to re-awaken his legions.

That such an event happens to coincide with the modern era of 40K is coincidental.

An individual Human world cannot stand against the Tyranids. Even Macragge was not alone in its fight, being supported by Guard and Naval assets from around the galaxy, and without the Ultramarines (which require the Emperor to exist) would have been devoured in any case.

The Emperor was most certainly the greatest ally Mankind could have possibly had, only his Great Work was left unfinished due to the machinations of Chaos. Chaos does not like regular mortals... or even regular physical reality... if Chaos opposes it, then you can be pretty sure that backing it yourself is not a bad idea.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Necrons are now awakening because the Silent King encountered the Tyranids in the void between galaxies, turned around, and came back to the Milky Way to re-awaken his legions.

Uh, No. Pg 8 of the Necron Codex within the first paragraph under Rising from Oblivion:

"Errors in circuitry and protocols ensured that a revivification destined to take place in the early years of M41 actually began far earlier in a few cases, or has yet to occur at all in others."

Later - on pg 24 - it states the Silent King reentered the galaxy within M41 while back on pg 8 it states that some of the earliest awakening dynasties awoke to witness the Great Crusade due to the previously mentioned errors in circuitry and protocols.

 King Pariah wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The Necrons are now awakening because the Silent King encountered the Tyranids in the void between galaxies, turned around, and came back to the Milky Way to re-awaken his legions.

Uh, No. Pg 8 of the Necron Codex within the first paragraph under Rising from Oblivion:

"Errors in circuitry and protocols ensured that a revivification destined to take place in the early years of M41 actually began far earlier in a few cases, or has yet to occur at all in others."

Later - on pg 24 - it states the Silent King reentered the galaxy within M41 while back on pg 8 it states that some of the earliest awakening dynasties awoke to witness the Great Crusade due to the previously mentioned errors in circuitry and protocols.

So your point proves... what exactly?

What the person you quoted is saying is thus: The 'Crons waking up had zilch to do with the Imperium existing, because some person earlier in the thread claimed that the Necrons wouldn't be on the scene at all if not for the Imperium disturbing them, or something to that effect.

Yes, the Necrons have been waking up for awhile due to errors in the preservation systems, but the rate at which they're coming back is only getting faster thanks to the Silent King coming back with his agenda.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 King Pariah wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The Necrons are now awakening because the Silent King encountered the Tyranids in the void between galaxies, turned around, and came back to the Milky Way to re-awaken his legions.

Uh, No. Pg 8 of the Necron Codex within the first paragraph under Rising from Oblivion:

"Errors in circuitry and protocols ensured that a revivification destined to take place in the early years of M41 actually began far earlier in a few cases, or has yet to occur at all in others."

Later - on pg 24 - it states the Silent King reentered the galaxy within M41 while back on pg 8 it states that some of the earliest awakening dynasties awoke to witness the Great Crusade due to the previously mentioned errors in circuitry and protocols.

So your point proves... what exactly?

What the person you quoted is saying is thus: The 'Crons waking up had zilch to do with the Imperium existing, because some person earlier in the thread claimed that the Necrons wouldn't be on the scene at all if not for the Imperium disturbing them, or something to that effect.

Yes, the Necrons have been waking up for awhile due to errors in the preservation systems, but the rate at which they're coming back is only getting faster thanks to the Silent King coming back with his agenda.

His point is that it wasn't the Silent King who did it. You are correct in that the overall point is moot when it comes to the overall discussion at hand, though. The necrons would have awoken regardless of the Imperium existing or not.

Tyrannids are a bit more debateable thanks to the Astronomicon.

Other things like Orks are definately not, though. Those guys have been around before the Imperium and although they love the good fighting the Imperium provides, odds are pretty good they'd be targetting and krumping humanity even without the Imperium's nifty fortresses to attract them. They aren't Khorne (on a good "I feel like being honorable today" day) in that they only attack "worthy targets", after all.

Yes. Imperium of Man as it is today means survival of human race, but at such costs we might as well roll over and die. No extra-galactic threat will ever be as dangerous to mankind as mankind.

 Araenion wrote:
No extra-galactic threat will ever be as dangerous to mankind as mankind.

As long the galaxy is filled with Tyranids, Orks, and lobster daemons, I'd take my chances with any human.

 Araenion wrote:
Yes. Imperium of Man as it is today means survival of human race, but at such costs we might as well roll over and die. No extra-galactic threat will ever be as dangerous to mankind as mankind.

A few planets and/or occupations (the "and/or" is because some people spend their entire lives on space stations or space ships) are actually not too bad. Hell, I'd say the majority of them are above the "fate worse than death" category, which means that the Imperium as a whole is better than a "fate worse than death" (IE, I'd take survival with the Imperium over Death, on average)

When Imperial Guard or Space Marines save a planet, it's pretty darn rare for them to be honored with cries of "You should have just let us die anyways!"

Case in point: Kreig.

This is a world that basically destroyed itself, and then put itself back together, rejoined the Imperium, took help from the Imperium, and now devotes all of its population to the Guard in some way, shape or form.

 Araenion wrote:
Yes. Imperium of Man as it is today means survival of human race, but at such costs we might as well roll over and die. No extra-galactic threat will ever be as dangerous to mankind as mankind.

Not really. There are plenty of threats greater than other humans. Other humans seek to rule, the other threats seek the destruction of all humans.

Without the Emperor we'd still have the Void Dragon on Earth after the 5th century. I'm pretty sure that'd end rather badly for us.