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Hi,

TWC has basic S5. So a TWC model with a power fist is S10.
Yet, a Wolf Lord has basic S4. So while he has a thunderwolf mount and a power fist he is only S9.

Is that correct?

gausus wrote:
Hi,

TWC has basic S5. So a TWC model with a power fist is S10.
Yet, a Wolf Lord has basic S4. So while he has a thunderwolf mount and a power fist he is only S9.

Is that correct?

No, both thee the TWC and the Wolf Lord are Str 4 X2 =8 +1 for the mount = 9.

Even though the TWC profile is 5 Str, they get a +1 Bonus from the TWC mount giving them a Profile of Str 5 but that is a modified profile.

That seems like the most RAW to play it. That also means that the Wolf Lord does HOW at S4.

Some people are in favour of TWC w/pfist at S9 - IMO that is too much inventing rules, reverse-engineering and attempting to guess intent.

The other argument is that "increasing their characteristics" is subtly different from a characteristic modifier like +1S.

I'd rather not see this argument flare up again, use the search feature if you want to read up on it.

The only thing that you need to do is discuss it with whoever you play with, come to a decision and use that.

If you go to a tournament, go to the people in charge and get an official ruling.

Whether it's RAW or RAI, the only people it affects are the ones that you play against.

Don't take DeathReaper's word on this, many (most?) people who replied to the last thread about this didn't not agree with his interpretation. Suffice to say, the intent of the authors is not at all clear, and this needs an FAQ.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
Don't take DeathReaper's word on this, many (most?) people who replied to the last thread about this didn't not agree with his interpretation. Suffice to say, the intent of the authors is not at all clear, and this needs an FAQ.

My first thought when reading it was "TWC don't actually have the TWC mount wargear". They didn't in the last Codex, the rules were just built in. The S5 was part of the profile.

Turns out after checking, they do have it. Which does suggest it's a modifier.

Maybe. Honestly, they should have kept the T 4(5) system they used in 5th edition, as it clarified cases like this. Given how common TWC with PF is for Space Wolves, and given how important the difference between S 9 and S 10 is (for purposes of Instant Death). This is definitely an issue in my local meta - our Space Wolves player likes using the 6HQ detachment to spam Wolf Lords, and myself and the Chaos players regularly use multiwound T5 models (Daemon Princes and Bike Captains). More than one game I've played has been decided because a S10 hit killed my beatstick bike captain on turn 2.

gausus wrote:
Hi,

TWC has basic S5. So a TWC model with a power fist is S10.
Yet, a Wolf Lord has basic S4. So while he has a thunderwolf mount and a power fist he is only S9.

Is that correct?

That is correct RAW. However, many play the Lord at S5 with the wolf giving him S10 as well.

Fragile wrote:

gausus wrote:
Hi,

TWC has basic S5. So a TWC model with a power fist is S10.
Yet, a Wolf Lord has basic S4. So while he has a thunderwolf mount and a power fist he is only S9.

Is that correct?

That is correct RAW. However, many play the Lord at S5 with the wolf giving him S10 as well.

ive also seen people play that twin linked weapons get to shoot two times as many shots with rerolls, which obviously is not the rules.

wargear states its a bonus, bonus is a modifier, TWC are strength 5, which includes the +1 bonus from wargear, so they are really strength (4+1)=5, if they hit with a weapon thats x2 strength the strength is at (4*2)+1=9 because the rules say that's how modifiers from wargear work, the TWF being wargear and the x2 strength weapon being wargear.

The LVO this year is playing it as S10. It was S10 last edition, and as soon as GW gets around to putting out a FAQ or Erata for it it will be S10 again this edition. For both Wolf Lords and TWC.

Of course all the zealots screaming in all caps that its S9 will be quiet on that day, or maybe even act like they knew it was S10 all along. That day can't come soon enough.

blaktoof wrote:


ive also seen people play that twin linked weapons get to shoot two times as many shots with rerolls, which obviously is not the rules.

wargear states its a bonus, bonus is a modifier, TWC are strength 5, which includes the +1 bonus from wargear, so they are really strength (4+1)=5, if they hit with a weapon thats x2 strength the strength is at (4*2)+1=9 because the rules say that's how modifiers from wargear work, the TWF being wargear and the x2 strength weapon being wargear.

The twin linked issue you brought up is completely wrong with in RAW so it should have no baring on this question, just like my models get to take armor, cover, and invulnerable saves for the same wound.

On the issue I think we can all agree that any +x (where x is an integer) is a modifier as listed in the BRB. The issue comes from the fact that the thunderwolf mount increases the models strength but doesn't say +1 any where in the rule, so it is not a modifier and any x2 would be off the strength 5. If the rule read that a model with the thunderwolf mount gets +1 to strength, wounds, toughness, and attacks then it would be a modifier and follow your math as above.

blaktoof wrote:

Fragile wrote:

gausus wrote:
Hi,

TWC has basic S5. So a TWC model with a power fist is S10.
Yet, a Wolf Lord has basic S4. So while he has a thunderwolf mount and a power fist he is only S9.

Is that correct?

That is correct RAW. However, many play the Lord at S5 with the wolf giving him S10 as well.

ive also seen people play that twin linked weapons get to shoot two times as many shots with rerolls, which obviously is not the rules.

wargear states its a bonus, bonus is a modifier, TWC are strength 5, which includes the +1 bonus from wargear, so they are really strength (4+1)=5, if they hit with a weapon thats x2 strength the strength is at (4*2)+1=9 because the rules say that's how modifiers from wargear work, the TWF being wargear and the x2 strength weapon being wargear.

Too much reverse engineering going on there - you're using the LEAST rules supported answer. Nowhere in the game are you ever told when/where/how to deconstruct a model's profile.

From the 'Thunderwolf Mount' entry in Codex Space Wolves:

In addition, a model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1 (these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear).

With that, I have to agree with DeathReaper and blaktoof that a Thunderwolf Cavalry Pack Leader with a power fist should be striking at S9.

NightHowler wrote:
It was S10 last edition.

The rules have changed since then. They didn't have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their wargear.
Now they do, with a note stating the increased strength is a bonus.

Models with a Thunderwolf mount change their unit type to Cavalry, as described in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. All close combat attacks made by a model with a Thunderwolf mount have the Rending special rule. In addition, a model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1 (these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear).

So by RAW all they have 10 str with power fist

(4+1) x 2 = 10

And Lord also has 10 st

 Darog wrote:
So by RAW all they have 10 str with power fist

(4+1) x 2 = 10

And Lord also has 10 st

See the rule for Multiple Modifiers.

It's Multipliers first then addition/subtraction

So it's (4x2)+1 = 9

Rules As Written

Thunderwolf Mount (Codex: Space Wolves page 98)

A model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks, and Wounds characteristics by 1.

As you can see the model does not receive a +1 modifier to their characteristics, instead their base characteristics are increased by ,1 thus a Wolflord on a Thunderwolf with a Powerfist or Thunderhammer has strength 10 (5 * 2 = 10)

Now if the description of a Thunderwolf mount read A model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount receives +1 Strength, Toughness, Attacks, and Wounds then they would indeed be strength 9 when wielding a Powerfist or Thunderhammer, but as previously stated the Thunderwolf provides a base modifier not a +x modifier.

NightHowler wrote:
The LVO this year is playing it as S10. It was S10 last edition, and as soon as GW gets around to putting out a FAQ or Erata for it it will be S10 again this edition. For both Wolf Lords and TWC.

Of course all the zealots screaming in all caps that its S9 will be quiet on that day, or maybe even act like they knew it was S10 all along. That day can't come soon enough.

while the LVO has created a house rule for their event that in no way represents the actual rules of the game, much like their ruling on ICs gaining infiltrate when attached to a unit with infiltrate despite the RAW specifically saying the opposite, their house rule is just a house rule at the end of the day and is not representative of the actual rules of the game.

Anyone is of course welcome to play by house rules if they/opponents agree, but they are in the end not the actual rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aftersong wrote:
Rules As Written

Thunderwolf Mount (Codex: Space Wolves page 98)

A model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks, and Wounds characteristics by 1.

As you can see the model does not receive a +1 modifier to their characteristics, instead their base characteristics are increased by ,1 thus a Wolflord on a Thunderwolf with a Powerfist or Thunderhammer has strength 10 (5 * 2 = 10)

Now if the description of a Thunderwolf mount read A model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount receives +1 Strength, Toughness, Attacks, and Wounds then they would indeed be strength 9 when wielding a Powerfist or Thunderhammer, but as previously stated the Thunderwolf provides a base modifier not a +x modifier.

increases is the word telling you that its a modifier.

if it stated it was not a modifier, then it would not be a modifier. As it fails to state that it isn't a modifier, and it is obviously saying it modifies a stat by +1, it is a modifier.

blaktoof wrote:


increases is the word telling you that its a modifier.

if it stated it was not a modifier, then it would not be a modifier. As it fails to state that it isn't a modifier, and it is obviously saying it modifies a stat by +1, it is a modifier.

No you are incorrect, in this game we have to play rules as written, not rules as we would like them to be, not even rules as would probably make sense.

In the base rulebook under modifiers (page 8)

Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a models characteristics positively or negatively by adding to it (+1, +2, etc), subtracting from it (-1, -2, etc), multiplying it (x2, x3, etc), or even setting it's value (1,8, etc)

There is no +1 in the Thunderwolf mount description thus it is not a modifier as defined in the modifier section thus it is not beholden to the rules for modifiers.

Rules as written for Strength for Wolflords on Thunderwolf mounts with powerfists is 5 x 2 =10

Sorry, but you're wrong. Increasing something by one is the same as adding to it or +1. Perhaps you can provide actual support for your claims that if it's not written as "+/-" then it's not a modifier.

Look you have to take the rules literally, and precisely as they are written. The modifiers section delineates what a modifier is, if the rule does match those specifications then it is not a modifier. I agree that it would make complete sense that increases by 1 is the same as +1 but rules exactly as written says otherwise.

 Ghaz wrote:
Sorry, but you're wrong. Increasing something by one is the same as adding to it or +1. Perhaps you can provide actual support for your claims that if it's not written as "+/-" then it's not a modifier.

can you provide actual rule support from the brb that increasing something is the same as giving it +1?

Yes, because its the English language. Increasing something by one is adding one. Unless the rulebook says it MUST use very specific wording (which it doesn't) then they're both modifiers.

You can't use the english language you have to use the language established in the rulebook and in the rulebook they establish that a modifier has a mathemetical device attached to it (=, -, x, etc) this is why GW had to errata FMC's in 6th edition because the rule said that when they failed a grounding check they became grounded but failed to say that they are no longer swooping and did not even define what grounded meant. Thus RAW in 6th you could only fire snapshots at FMC's that failed a grounding check despite the fact that the english language made it really easy to see what was intended.

Language and RAW do not always match up with one another.

And saying increase can also be written as + (Note the modifiers rules say that if something is added to something else, it is a modifier).

So they are interchangeable.

The TW mount is a piece of wargear that does modify a models characteristic positively by adding to it.


"Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a models characteristics positively or negatively by adding to it (+1, +2, etc), subtracting from it (-1, -2, etc), multiplying it (x2, x3, etc), or even setting it's value (1,8, etc)"

If you can't use the English language, how are you even reading the rulebook? Do you need them to define every single word? Where do they define the words 'a' or 'one' or anything else? Only when they've provided a specific definition do you use it. So where do they define a 'modifier' as only being specifically noted as 'adding' or +?

You use the English language, and in the English language when you increase something you've added to it.

the wargear Thunderwolf uses +1, and says it is a increase, a bonus, to the normal profile.

that is a modifier.

it is not the base profile, but a bonus/increase.

using the logic you are putting forth anything that changes a stat is not a modifier, and there are no such things as modifiers. which is silly.

btw the wording is the same as the wording for the increase their toughness characteristic by 1 from bikes, further support beyond the obvious RAW that other RAW also coincides with the same wording and means the same thing.

its a modifier.

@Ghaz: English definitions don't matter, and they define a 'modifier' as "Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a models characteristics positively or negatively by adding to it (+1, +2, etc), subtracting from it (-1, -2, etc), multiplying it (x2, x3, etc), or even setting it's value (1,8, etc)". Now correct me if I'm wrong but I think that would be a pretty specific list of what constitutes as a modifier and I do not see increased on the list.

@blaktoof: the wargear Thunderwolf does not use +1, that is why there is a question about it.

blaktoof wrote:
the wargear Thunderwolf uses +1, and says it is a increase, a bonus, to the normal profile.

that is a modifier.

it is not the base profile, but a bonus/increase.

using the logic you are putting forth anything that changes a stat is not a modifier, and there are no such things as modifiers. which is silly.

btw the wording is the same as the wording for the increase their toughness characteristic by 1 from bikes, further support beyond the obvious RAW that other RAW also coincides with the same wording and means the same thing.

its a modifier.

This is false. Nowhere in the space wolves codex does it say that a thunderwolf mount gives +1 to anything. It says that it increases S, T, W, and A characteristics by 1. This logic is no more silly than assuming that increase by 1 is the same thing (rules wise) as +1. Also, comparing bikes in this case is irrelevant since there is no situation where a character can take a bike and then also take wargear that gives T x2.

The fact of the matter is that if tournaments are playing it as S10, then if tournaments are important to you, it's S10. If games at your FLGS are more important to you, then it's whatever your FLGS plays it as. My FLGS also plays it as S10. So for as far as I'm concerned, since both Tournaments and my FLGS are playing it as S10, it's S10 and that's all that matters to me.

When a rule is this ambiguous, any argument on this website is unlikely to convince the other side, since, like any religion, the opinions are informed by belief rather than logic.

 Ghaz wrote:
If you can't use the English language, how are you even reading the rulebook? Do you need them to define every single word? Where do they define the words 'a' or 'one' or anything else? Only when they've provided a specific definition do you use it. So where do they define a 'modifier' as only being specifically noted as 'adding' or +?

You use the English language, and in the English language when you increase something you've added to it.

Not when the rulebook defines a modifier as something else, you may not like it but this is how rules have to be interpreted. It is pedantic, rules lawyery, and stupid but ultimately it is the only way disputes like these can be mediated.