Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

After a lot of thought (and saving up some money) I think that I would like to add a Mechanicum ally detachment or main force to my 40k collection.

Has anyone here started a Mechanicum army and has some tips?

Also which book is the best to get? I look on the Forge World site and there are 3 books that have rules for them. Do I need all 3, or just one?

My list is going to look something like:

Magos Dominus

9 Thallax (probably run in 3 squads of 3)

5 Castellax Battle- Automata

3 Vorax Battle- Automata

Some Myrmidon Destructors

and finish off pts required with allied guard converted to match the theme.

Book 3 HH is the best for Mechanicus right now, the most complete list of untis

HH3 has the biggest list, and the units you listed are in it. However, not all of the Mechanicum's stuff can be found in just HH3. The other HH books have a couple things, as well. However, everything you listed is in HH3, you may find that some wargear and weapon rules may not be in HH3.

 Turalon wrote:

5 Castellax Battle- Automata

3 Vorax Battle- Automata

Yeah, that's 8 monstrous creatures you've got there. Before you plop down all the cash to buy them, you may want to make sure your potential opponents won't necessarily freak out at the prospect of playing against it.

and finish off pts required with allied guard converted to match the theme.

And there is another potential pitfall: as yet, there is no "guard" in 30K to ally with. HH4 will have the beginnings of the Imperial Army (Solar Auxilia) in it, though. However, there are tech-thralls in the Mechanicum list that can fill that purpose, to an extent.

Yeah, that's 8 monstrous creatures you've got there. Before you plop down all the cash to buy them, you may want to make sure your potential opponents won't necessarily freak out at the prospect of playing against it.

..Do people not play Tyranids in your area? 8 MC's isn't much of an issue.

I didn't know that you couldn't ally with books from mainstream 40k. That may change some things. Is that written somewhere in the Horus Heresy books, or is it just custom?

My thoughts were that I would be using these models to represent a current machine world type force.

The reason why I wanted to run that many of the big robots is because I think that they are the best models in the range and those are the bundle numbers.

 Turalon wrote:
I didn't know that you couldn't ally with books from mainstream 40k. That may change some things. Is that written somewhere in the Horus Heresy books, or is it just custom?

The reason why I wanted to run that many of the big robots is because I think that they are the best models in the range and those are the bundle numbers.

Imperial Guard, or whatever GW wants to call them now, are not listed in the allies matrix in the HH books (and Mechanicum is not listed in the allies matrix in the 40K rulebook). I fully agree the big stompy robots are cool, and will not always be all that great against some armies, but, to be honest, you may have a hard enough time convincing a 40K player to play against your 30K army as it is. A great deal depends on what king of stigma Forgeworld carries in your area.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Yeah, that's 8 monstrous creatures you've got there. Before you plop down all the cash to buy them, you may want to make sure your potential opponents won't necessarily freak out at the prospect of playing against it.

..Do people not play Tyranids in your area? 8 MC's isn't much of an issue.

I may be mistaken, but I do not think most Tyranid MCs are T7, with a 5++, can get abilities that reduce enemy cover saves, are able to fire up to three weapons, are troops choices, and start at less than 100pts each.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Book 3 HH is the best for Mechanicus right now, the most complete list of untis

I'm pretty sure Forge World released a Codex that contains all the rules for all the units in HH, just without anything else.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Book 3 HH is the best for Mechanicus right now, the most complete list of untis

I'm pretty sure Forge World released a Codex that contains all the rules for all the units in HH, just without anything else.

Only for the Legions, not the Mechanicum.

Well this is all interesting information.

As for use of forgeworld around me, the only time forgeworld stuff comes out is the odd one off model that has rules in a mainstream codex or army book, so it it generally accepted.

You need to check then. The balance in 30k is... odd. It's scaled around 2500 point games instead of 1500, so what's balanced against other 30k armies can be a bit squiffy in 40k - a Legiones Astartes list is severely gimped compared to a Space Marine list, but the Mechanicum is pretty damn powerful because they're designed as scenario special troops and allies.

There's also the problem that the Legio Cybernetica, which all those Battle Automata are part of doesn't actually exist in 40k - they were wiped our and/or decommissioned at the end of the Heresy. The modern Legio Cybernetica, I have been assured it exists, must have some other focus. Servo-skulls perhaps.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
You need to check then. The balance in 30k is... odd. It's scaled around 2500 point games instead of 1500, so what's balanced against other 30k armies can be a bit squiffy in 40k - a Legiones Astartes list is severely gimped compared to a Space Marine list, but the Mechanicum is pretty damn powerful because they're designed as scenario special troops and allies.

There's also the problem that the Legio Cybernetica, which all those Battle Automata are part of doesn't actually exist in 40k - they were wiped our and/or decommissioned at the end of the Heresy. The modern Legio Cybernetica, I have been assured it exists, must have some other focus. Servo-skulls perhaps.

Servitors typically, servo skulls.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

There's also the problem that the Legio Cybernetica, which all those Battle Automata are part of doesn't actually exist in 40k - they were wiped our and/or decommissioned at the end of the Heresy.

What's your source for that?

 Gashrog wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

There's also the problem that the Legio Cybernetica, which all those Battle Automata are part of doesn't actually exist in 40k - they were wiped our and/or decommissioned at the end of the Heresy.

What's your source for that?

It's what all the FW staff have said when asked at Open Days, etc. - no 40k rules for Battle Automata (or Volkite weapons). I don't think they've publicly published that statement so take with as much salt as you want

 Gashrog wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

There's also the problem that the Legio Cybernetica, which all those Battle Automata are part of doesn't actually exist in 40k - they were wiped our and/or decommissioned at the end of the Heresy.

What's your source for that?

Considering that most of the Legio Cybernetica went full on heratik, most of them are Dark Mechanicus now and serve the dark powers.

The Legio Cybernetica was assimilated into the armed forces of the Imperium in the aftermath of the Treaty of Olympus which bound together the domain of the Emperor and Mars. A great many Cohorts were transferred from duties defending Forge Worlds to serve in the frontlines of the Great Crusade.[7] During the Crusade, members of this division served the Emperor, with the likes of Gergerra Rei leading two full cohorts of combat mechanoids fighting many battles alongside Warmaster Horus and his Luna Wolves.[3a] Members of the Legion became corrupted by Horus after he fell to Chaos and many of their units supported his ideal of an Imperium of Chaos. Some of the Magos who sided with Horus hoped to abandon the Crimson Accords and saw the Warmaster as a chance to pursue long forbidden A.I. development.[7] Following the outbreak of the Horus Heresy on Isstvan V, the bases of the corrupt Legio Cybernetica on Mars were immediately assaulted by loyalists.[4]

Following the defeat of the Heresy and the banishment of the Traitor Legions, the dishonored Legio cohorts also fled into the Eye of Terror, where they remain to this day. Since the defeat of Horus, the Legio Cybernetica has pledged itself anew to the Imperium. Its members now take binding oaths of loyalty more terrible than any Marine Chapter oaths.[1]

Though most of its from Older fluff (Rogue Trader old), so be cautious.

So, here's the really important detail:

Castellax are troops but CANNOT be taken as mandatory troops in the Taghmata Omnissiah Codex (HH3).

I have been playing mechanicum for a couple months now, and here's what I've been doing to incorporate it successfully into 40k without annoying people (a few units are a little goofy since 30k is really designed with apoc style games in mind. Primarch's on the field and all that.) I've been using them as allies of convenience with Imperium as they are technically a separate faction.

1) Thallax Vorax Inar Santarael Myrmidon Secutors Adsecularis Ursarax Land Raider TP Auxilia are all totally balanced in 40k. Adsecs can be annoying in their ability to tarpit but even with Lachrymallus support aren't game breaking by any means. Just don't use the official models because good lord the price. A Thallax cohort with Multimelta is a fantastic Ally detachment troop choice.

2) Castellax: don't take more than 3. 4 and 5 is a bit unstoppable. Thanatar: counts as moving turn 1. Krios and Triaros: Ignore the Flare Shield rule, Triaros cannot have Objective Secured. Knight Variants: Only if opponent fields super heavies. Magos Limit yourself to only 1 of the following: Abeyant, Machinator Arrray, Archmagos upgrade ( otherwise he becomes something like T6 5 wounds 2+3++FNP. Myrmidon Destructors: units with Gravitron Imploders may not take a Triaros transport.

With those relatively minor restrictions which are mostly just "gentlemen's terms" you should not have trouble getting repeat 40k opponents. The army is very well balanced for 40k for the most part and does not exceed the power level of Tau, Eldar or Daemons even with the most competitive lists.

For an Ally Detachment I recommend using a Techmarine or Warpsmith as Magos Prime, use him like a master of the Forge with a Conversion Beamer in the back, use a 3 man multi-melta Thallax cohort for jetpack tank hunters, then choose either Vorax, a smaller Castellax Maniple, or a Thanatar to support with a unit of Techpriest Auxilia. If you buy the Techmarine and servitors box all you need for the Auxilia is one Techpriest model.

With those relatively minor restrictions which are mostly just "gentlemen's terms" you should not have trouble getting repeat 40k opponents. The army is very well balanced for 40k for the most part and does not exceed the power level of Tau, Eldar or Daemons even with the most competitive lists.

Considering such, why does one need to lower the power level of their army?

Mechanicus is not really high tier competitive even with the highest cheese they can attempt to take, not to mention it's odd you bring up apoc style when Lord of War is standard 40k.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Considering that most of the Legio Cybernetica went full on heratik, most of them are Dark Mechanicus now and serve the dark powers.

Actually your cited source's cited source demolishes that opinion, Footnote 7 is Horus Heresy: Massacre page 264, the final paragraph of which is:
"When the wars of the Horus Heresy came, the independent nature of the Legio Cybernetica's Cohorts ensured that, as a whole, they sided in particular neither with the Loyalist or Traitor, but were split between masters they had long fought for in many cases. Other Cohorts, mindful of their oaths of loyalty to the Emperor or fearful of a descent into anarchy, saw the Traitors as base renegades to be destroyed, while others harboured ambitions to be free of the Crimson Accords, and saw the Warmaster's war as a a chance to pursue long forbidden rites and technologies."

Footnote 4 cites Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness page 240, which merely stated that the Legio Cybernetica bases on Mars were besieged ALONG with those of the Collegia Titanica, the Titan Legions of the Divisio Militaris were explicitly stated to have sided almost universally with Horus but no such statement was made of the Legio Cybernetica either there or in the Imperial Robots article (footnote 1) which noted they were used extensively by both sides during the Heresy, the quoted line "the dishonored Legio cohorts also fled into the Eye of Terror" referred specifically to those cohorts that sided with Horus, not all of the Legio's cohorts.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

With those relatively minor restrictions which are mostly just "gentlemen's terms" you should not have trouble getting repeat 40k opponents. The army is very well balanced for 40k for the most part and does not exceed the power level of Tau, Eldar or Daemons even with the most competitive lists.

Considering such, why does one need to lower the power level of their army?

Mechanicus is not really high tier competitive even with the highest cheese they can attempt to take, not to mention it's odd you bring up apoc style when Lord of War is standard 40k.

Because, just like a list containing three imperial knights is not strictly speaking the most competitive army out there, a person playing an unfamiliar list that is particularly high strength is at serious risk of everyone at the club going "screw that guy he's a WAAC asshat who uses that army to get free wins" and suddenly your enormous investment is gathering dust because you can't find a game.

The internet LOVES to rage whenever anyone suggest they shoot for a middle of the road army instead of the strongest possible one. But how many players end up out of 500-700 dollars when nobody wants to play against their 12 WS, or Triptide/Farsight Bomb, or IK death list.

So by all means, spend 500$ on 6 Gravitron/Irad Cleanser Destructors in a Triaros with an Abeyant/Machinator Archmagos. Fill the rest of the list with 150$ Objective Secured Triaros with effective 15 front armor. Enjoy your 4-5 stomps against anyone who doesn't bring a purely competitive list, and then enjoy every single person at your club deciding FW is broken bs and they'll never play you again. Because you know what? People aren't gonna adapt to the challenge of a powerful HH army. Because it's easier to say "HH is not officially made to play with 40k I'm just not gonna play 40k against that list anymore" that's human nature. You're in a rules grey area even playing HH with 40k. Were it in 40k, Mechanicum would be considered somewhere on the level of the Necrons. But if Necrons weren't officially allowed in 40k how do you think people would feel about Stormtek+Nightscythe alpha strike lists?

the_scotsman wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

With those relatively minor restrictions which are mostly just "gentlemen's terms" you should not have trouble getting repeat 40k opponents. The army is very well balanced for 40k for the most part and does not exceed the power level of Tau, Eldar or Daemons even with the most competitive lists.

Considering such, why does one need to lower the power level of their army?

Mechanicus is not really high tier competitive even with the highest cheese they can attempt to take, not to mention it's odd you bring up apoc style when Lord of War is standard 40k.

Because, just like a list containing three imperial knights is not strictly speaking the most competitive army out there, a person playing an unfamiliar list that is particularly high strength is at serious risk of everyone at the club going "screw that guy he's a WAAC asshat who uses that army to get free wins" and suddenly your enormous investment is gathering dust because you can't find a game.

The internet LOVES to rage whenever anyone suggest they shoot for a middle of the road army instead of the strongest possible one. But how many players end up out of 500-700 dollars when nobody wants to play against their 12 WS, or Triptide/Farsight Bomb, or IK death list.

So by all means, spend 500$ on 6 Gravitron/Irad Cleanser Destructors in a Triaros with an Abeyant/Machinator Archmagos. Fill the rest of the list with 150$ Objective Secured Triaros with effective 15 front armor. Enjoy your 4-5 stomps against anyone who doesn't bring a purely competitive list, and then enjoy every single person at your club deciding FW is broken bs and they'll never play you again. Because you know what? People aren't gonna adapt to the challenge of a powerful HH army. Because it's easier to say "HH is not officially made to play with 40k I'm just not gonna play 40k against that list anymore" that's human nature. You're in a rules grey area even playing HH with 40k. Were it in 40k, Mechanicum would be considered somewhere on the level of the Necrons. But if Necrons weren't officially allowed in 40k how do you think people would feel about Stormtek+Nightscythe alpha strike lists?

If your in a lower level meta, play as it is then.

But the rest of your argument is pretty nonsense in the fact that it sounds like your playing WAAC lower tier players who would refuse you simply because they don't want to adjust. Necrons aren't even top tier anymore and if they feel that's a powerful army that they only play because it's 40k, but they'll happily ignore if it's Forgeworld is just backwards in so many reasons that it's very WAAC.

There is a difference between a player wanting to always win and disliking that they don't have a fair chance. My meta is a fairly standard 40k club with an unusually high number of players. The vast majority of armies are collections that may or may not contain all the latest goodies-one person plays a fairly competitive Eldar list, another has a coincidentally good Tau list that he's played for years, and another is a big fan of unbound craziness. Beyond that, any kind of "spam" or "Death Star" is uncommon. People collect what they like and respect the fact that not everyone has the money to keep up with GWs jerking the competitive meta around. If a player with a less competitive list stands no chance against a player with a more competitive list, it is generally considered more reasonable for the person to respectfully refuse to play that list in favor of finding a different game than it is to expect that player to shelve 500-1500 points of models and spend another 600$ so that they can field a more competitive list.

Forgeworld brings a whole new level of inherent bias to the table. If someone loses badly to a FW list they are inherently more likely to decide that it is a much stronger list that they cannot beat. Add that to the fact that FW requires a much, much larger monetary investment than 40k and it makes a lot of sense to try to keep from creating a highly competitive list if you have a normal collectors meta rather than a "well I sold off my necron flying bakery list on eBay and my new wave serpent list finally came in!" "Wow, they're even spray painted! We'll see how they do against my Transformer Riptide list! This beer can is Farsight!" Meta.