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I'd like the MODs to present a ruling on this, as I am noticing an uptick in playful euphemisms being used for a specific racial group that strike me as offensive, but seems to generate no warnings or other criticism from the moderation team. So, in the interest of being clear about where the boundaries of accepted racism are established on Dakka Dakka, I was hoping the MOD team could confer on this topic and provide a ruling.

When does using a racial descriptor cross a line?

White, black, yellow, brown and red are all descriptors for skin color and are usually paired with other descriptors to identify a type of person: e.g. white-guy, brown-woman, black-dude, ect.

Nothing wrong with that, as far as I can tell. But it gets a little tricky when other terms are added.

Case in point: Whitey McWhiteBoy.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/619902.page#7318938

Justification for such a term is given here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/619902.page#7319920

Then the term reappears later in the thread with no MOD comments, even though MODs have been in the thread, so the appearance given by the lack of moderation is that this term is acceptable:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/619902.page#7319920

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330/619902.page#7342467

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330/619902.page#7342467

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/330/619902.page#7342467

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/360/619902.page#7342566

So, Dakka MODs, what is the official stance on this? If Whitey McWhiteBoy is an acceptable descriptor for a white male character are other fanciful descriptors okay for other races/genders? I ask because "Mick" is a racist term associated with Irish folk. So why is Whitey McWhiteboy acceptable? If we can use an openly racist white term can other races enjoy the same privielge?

Is Brownie-Taco-Eater acceptable? How about Blackie-Watermelon-Face?

For the white ladies how about Whitey-McMammories?

I am being intentionally outrageous because this double standard is disgusting and I am surprised it is being allowed on Dakka which usually offers a fair treatment for its various member demographics. This, however, is offensive. As a white person of Scots/Irish decent I see no useful purpose for these playfully racist terms directed only at white people. Surely a discussion about race should leave out unnecessary descriptors that do nothing more than further racial stereotypes. Whitey McWhiteBoy (or Scruffy McWhiteBoy) are unnecessary. You can just say white.

To the MODS: Please clarify Dakka's position on language like what I posted above because its use is spreading and I see this as a problematic shift in behavior on these forums.

There is no hard and fast rule. Obviously, context is very important when it comes to potentially offensive terms. Dakka Dakka has human moderators because this kind of thing requires case-by-case judgment (also we are probably cheaper than robots). Generally speaking, if you think it might legitimately offend someone (for example, if you think you might have to clear it with a mod) then it is best not to post it at all.

As a white guy and a racist (or so I've been told), I love Whitey McWhiteBoy.

The other examples DarkTraveller777 gives above strike me as quite clear: "Brownie-Taco-Eater" and "Blackie-Watermelon-Face" are clearly meant to reinforce established racist stereotypes about historically marginalized races. "Whitey-McMammories" serves to reduce a woman's worth to her breasts. In my judgment, these are all clearly meant to offend, that's the only purpose they serve, and I would certainly give warning/suspensions for posting terms like this.

By contrast, "White McWhiteBoy" doesn't seem to accomplish anything either directly or by implication except to point out that someone is white, albeit in a facetious manner. Now, it could hypothetically be deployed in an offensive manner. Like a butter knife, even such a dull term could be used as a weapon. I do not think it is offensive in and of itself, however. For example -- the posts DarkTraveller777 calls out seem to be lampooning the trend in AAA video games to employ the same stubbly white male protagonist again and again. But it is not being used to insult a race of people.

It's a difficult case as anything referring to whites isn't loaded with a history of racism.

I'd go with you though. If someone uses the term "Whitey McWhiteBoy" then he clearly uses it in an offensive way, be it to mock other people at the very least; which ultimatively is offensive again and violates rule #1.

I'd PM any of the mods involved in the thread or even yakface / legoburner about it if you're really concerned about it, albeit they usually have a keen eye on the Nuts and Bolts section and frequently reply to user pleas.

The official stance is that you know when you cross the line, so don't.

People who do will get moderated.

I would assume that "Whitey McWhiteBoy" was offensive.

I think it has something to with privilege, which one should check daily apparently. So it's sort of like diabetes.

Scruffy WhiteDude is a pretty good description of the type of videogame character like Drake out of Drake's Whatever (can't remember the name of the games.) He is a scruffy white dude and there are many similar characters in other video games.

I have seen the term used in articles outside the confines of DakkaDakka. It is a fairly common trope.

Whitey McWhiteBoy does nothing to describe a character except emphasise his whiteness and, in terms of using the term 'boy', to diminish his adult identity. Think about why black servants and slaves used to be called 'boy'.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Scruffy WhiteDude is a pretty good description of the type of videogame character like Drake out of Drake's Whatever (can't remember the name of the games.) He is a scruffy white dude and there are many similar characters in other video games.

I have seen the term used in articles outside the confines of DakkaDakka. It is a fairly common trope.

Whitey McWhiteBoy does nothing to describe a character except emphasise his whiteness and, in terms of using the term 'boy', to diminish his adult identity. Think about why black servants and slaves used to be called 'boy'.

What if 'boy' was replaced by 'guy'? Would the over-emphasis on the skin colour still be crossing the line, or would this just make it more of a murky area to moderate?

Whitey McWhite Person.
Whitey McWhite Chap.
Jewish McJew Dude.
Dusky McBlack Guy.
Pinky McHomo Man.

It is pretty clear that when the main descriptor is doubling up on some kind of ethnic identity, there could be a tinge of racism.

There is a big difference between pointing out that race is an issue regarding a given topic and marginalizing people because of race. All these McWhitey phrases in the thread in question are clearly commenting on the idea that the majority of extremely generic AAA video game protagonists are white. That is to say, race is an issue when it comes to designing a protagonist for these games. Calling such characters "Scruffy McWhitey" or whatever is an attempt to call out that they lack characterization beyond their race (and gender and poor shaving habits). But such a phrase does not demean white people, either by evoking a history of marginalization of white people or associated negative stereotypes that seek to marginalize or reinforce the historical marginalization of white people (if there was such a thing). That said, it's also obvious that someone could use phrases like "Whitey McWhiteBoy" to insult others purely/primarily on the basis of race and that would be racism. That kind of thing merits correction on this site.

This does seem like an awfully hairy matter.

Do you often have to deal with borderline cases where it's difficult to decide if it breaks rule #1 or not?

 Ashiraya wrote:
Do you often have to deal with borderline cases where it's difficult to decide if it breaks rule #1 or not?

Speaking for myself, it is very rare to see a borderline racism issue on here. But it has happened once or twice and in those situations I post about it in the moderator forum and look for how other mods see the issue.

This isn't just something that happens to Whites either. For example, the Magic Negro, which yeah, contains the N-Bomb in its name, but is a widely accepted term among critics for a racist stereotype. In fact, the use of a the word is purposeful, to call out how old fashioned and racist the idea itself is.

Calling that group of characters colorful terms like White McWhiteDude is the opposite of racist. It's using tongue in cheek to point out an absurdity.

Another example would be characters with names like Black Dynamite, which indicate that racial empowerment is a central theme.

Exactly. Blaxploitation is an entire genre dedicated to this.

 LordofHats wrote:
This isn't just something that happens to Whites either. For example, the Magic Negro, which yeah, contains the N-Bomb in its name, but is a widely accepted term among critics for a racist stereotype. In fact, the use of a the word is purposeful, to call out how old fashioned and racist the idea itself is.

Calling that group of characters colorful terms like White McWhiteDude is the opposite of racist. It's using tongue in cheek to point out an absurdity.

I am not seeing the connection at all between the Magical Negro trope and the "colorful" naming conventions used for Caucasians in the thread I linked to.

I am at a loss why there needs to be colorful descriptors for one race and not for others in any conversation, let alone one about video games.

 Manchu wrote:
There is a big difference between pointing out that race is an issue regarding a given topic and marginalizing people because of race. All these McWhitey phrases in the thread in question are clearly commenting on the idea that the majority of extremely generic AAA video game protagonists are white. That is to say, race is an issue when it comes to designing a protagonist for these games. Calling such characters "Scruffy McWhitey" or whatever is an attempt to call out that they lack characterization beyond their race (and gender and poor shaving habits). But such a phrase does not demean white people, either by evoking a history of marginalization of white people or associated negative stereotypes that seek to marginalize or reinforce the historical marginalization of white people (if there was such a thing). That said, it's also obvious that someone could use phrases like "Whitey McWhiteBoy" to insult others purely/primarily on the basis of race and that would be racism. That kind of thing merits correction on this site.

And again, why not just use "white" when commenting on a Caucasian's race? The need to add some flair to a racial term implies a need by the poster(s) to take a dig at a particular group, otherwise the base term would be sufficient.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The official stance is that you know when you cross the line, so don't.

People who do will get moderated.

I would assume that "Whitey McWhiteBoy" was offensive.

Also - if you said it to someone in person, would the odds of them punching you in the face be statistically high? If so...

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
I am not seeing the connection at all between the Magical Negro trope and the "colorful" naming conventions used for Caucasians in the thread I linked to.

I know you don't. Otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
And again, why not just use "white" when commenting on a Caucasian's race?

In this case,

 Manchu wrote:
to call out that they lack characterization beyond their race

The idea is, this (genus of) character(s) might as well be called White McWhiteGuy because that's all he is -- he's just a white guy.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

I am at a loss why there needs to be colorful descriptors for one race and not for others in any conversation, let alone one about video games.

I don't see the need for any reference to any skin color unless they are explicitely talked of.

If you see the term being used in an offensive way, PM a mod you trust and he'll look into it

 LordofHats wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
I am not seeing the connection at all between the Magical Negro trope and the "colorful" naming conventions used for Caucasians in the thread I linked to.

I know you don't. Otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.

Ooo what a burn.

So explain it better than dropping a wiki link? How is Whitey McWhiteBoy used in the thread I linked to not racist? Especially when the posters using the term are doing so while lamenting how over used white characters are? The context of that thread does not indicate that the posters were using that term ironically, but rather vindictively to show their frustration.

 Manchu wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
And again, why not just use "white" when commenting on a Caucasian's race?

In this case,

 Manchu wrote:
to call out that they lack characterization beyond their race

The idea is, this (genus of) character(s) might as well be called White McWhiteGuy because that's all he is -- he's just a white guy.

So just call him generic white guy?

Mick is a racist term. Adding additional variations of "white" to describe a white character all the while joining them with a historically racist term (Mc) is racist.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
So just call him generic white guy?

Mick is a racist term. Adding additional variations of "white" to describe a white character all the while joining them with a historically racist term (Mc) is racist.

Whitey McWhiteGuy, as used in the thread in question, is a (very) slightly facetious way of criticizing a character (type). It does not demean white people. It does not even evoke stereotypes about white people. And I don't think anyone is evoking the slur "Mick" with the phrase "McWhitey." That's really stretching credibility and makes me wonder if this thread is even in good faith. There is no indication whatsoever of prejudice against Irish or Scottish people in that thread.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
So explain it better than dropping a wiki link?

He did:

 LordofHats wrote:
the use of a the word is purposeful, to call out how old fashioned and racist the idea itself is

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
the posters using the term are doing so while lamenting how over used white characters are?

Crucially, they are not arguing or even implying that there is anything inferior about being white. Again, there is a difference between ackonowledging that race is an issue and demeaning/marginalizing people because of race.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
So explain it better than dropping a wiki link?

I did explain it. You simply choose not to understand because you'd rather decry how terrible it is being a white guy with all these double standards floating about that don't actually exist.

Especially when the posters using the term are doing so while lamenting how over used white characters are?

Yeah.



Some people might find this has gotten a little annoyingly repetitive.

The context of that thread does not indicate that the posters were using that term ironically, but rather vindictively to show their frustration.

And this says you don't actually understand the context of the thread.

Yeah, I see where this is going.

I am genuinely upset by the term being used, posted as much in the thread and nothing happened. When seeing the term (or variations of it being used days later) I alerted the MODs using the yellow triangle and nothing happened. So, I started this thread, and thanks to you Manchu it looks like yet again, nothing will happen.

Fine. Despite other members agreeing that this is questionable language to use when describing a white person, Manchu is questioning the credibility of this thread. Awesome.

If a discussion on race cannot even grant one group the courtesy of being taken seriously without having ridiculous monikers added to their race, well I am not sure this is a community I want to be part of.

And Mick is a racist term directed at Irish. Yes, no one in that thread specifically bashed Irish in name, but they made the generic white guy a "Mick" by adding the Mc to the term Whitey McWhiteBoy. Last I checked not every white person in the world is of Irish ancestry, but you sure wouldn't know that after the gross generalization of whites in that thread. Because according to that thread all white guys are Mc's.

I am extremely disappointed in you, Manchu, and in Dakka in general. I expected better of this place.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LordofHats wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
So explain it better than dropping a wiki link?

I did explain it. You simply choose not to understand because you'd rather decry how terrible it is being a white guy with all these double standards floating about that don't actually exist.

I said nothing of the sort. I simply would like white people to be referred to as white people, and not juvenile terms like Whitey McWhiteBoy. But thanks, I am choosing not to understand you? fething really?

Because according to that thread all white guys are Mc's.

And now you obviously didn't read my post properly, as I specificied my use of Scruffy McWhiteDude included the 'Mc' for the exact reason that White Everyman Heroes have this tendency to be Irishish (John McLane anyone? The sterotypical everyman is literally Irish). The whole reason it's there is to point out the stereotype.

Your fee fees were hurt by someone using colorful language to express their annoyance at how video game protagonists tend to be this interchangeable guy with no personality. Have a lolipop. If your skin is this thin, I can't fathom how you go through life without constantly being offended.

 LordofHats wrote:

Because according to that thread all white guys are Mc's.

And now you obviously didn't read my post properly, as I specificied my use of Scruffy McWhiteDude included the 'Mc' for the exact reason that White Everyman Heroes have this tendency to be Irishish (John McLane anyone? The sterotypical everyman is literally Irish).

So you used a stereotype of white people to make your insulting term more stereotypical?

 LordofHats wrote:
Your fee fees were hurt by someone using colorful language to express their annoyance at how video game protagonists tend to be this interchangeable guy with no personality. Have a lolipop. If your skin is this thin, I can't fathom how you go through life without constantly being offended.

My hypocrisy skin is quite thin. It is hypocritical to rely on stereotypes, or use demeaning language, for one group and not others. I am not advocating that racist terms be allowed for other groups, rather that Dakka checks its use of racially insensitive terms in regards to whites. If it isn't okay to use stupid language for other groups it shouldn't be okay to do so regarding whites. Also, your tone is obnoxious. Might want to check that.

Dark, you're acting like a petulant child. Manchu disagrees with you, and the opinions of other members have proved that this issue is incredibly divisive, but you're acting as if we've just mugged you, smashed the urn containing your grandma's ashes on the pavement, and then kicked your puppy into an open fire.

The impression I'm getting is that you started this thread in order to have argument, and your complete collapse into some sort of "everyone is against me" state only suggests that if you ever intended to have a decent discussion about it then you abandoned that idea pretty damn quickly.

Drop the whole "I'm disappointed in you" act, and quit trying to lynch Manchu because he opposes your viewpoint.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Manchu is questioning the credibility of this thread.

At this point, yes I am calling shenanigans. Your argument is that "Whitey McWhiteGuy" is preemptively racist at least because you assume (with zero evidence) that the surname prefix "Mc" is intended to evoke the racist slur "mick." "Mick" is not even a slur against white people generally.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Because according to that thread all white guys are Mc's.

That is not even close to any point made or implied in that thread.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
So you used a stereotype of white people to make your insulting term more stereotypical?

Obtuse is as obtuse does.

It is hypocritical to rely on stereotypes, or use demeaning language, for one group and not others.

So you also missed the part where it was pointed out this doesn't just happen to whites? (I pointed it out in the thread you linked to as well)

Edited by Manchu ~ Rule One is be Polite