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 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
If it isn't okay to use stupid language for other groups it shouldn't be okay to do so regarding whites.

Well, yes, you're right about that. I think we need to be sure there is no miscommunication -- Racism is not okay on Dakka Dakka, against any race. As I have explained, I believe phases like "Whitey McWhiteGuy" could be used in a racist way, that is in a way to demean people for being white. And I have explained why I do not think that is how the phrase was used in the thread.

I always kind of figured that until we as a society move on and accept that skin color means exactly as much as hair color or eye color we will have problems like this.

Skin color is not important enough to get offended over and it's not important enough to discriminate over. The day we can playfully joke about ethnicity with our friends the way we joke about hair color (with no discriminatory intent behind it whatsoever) will be a much better day for our society.

Horrible stuff was done for stupid reasons in the past, but dragging that baggage along with us isn't helping. I wish I knew what we could do about this subject, but (like many social issues) other than people agreeing not to be dumb I see no solution, so it pretty much makes me pissed off whenever it comes up (again like most social issues).

So I guess I'm saying I see nothing wrong with stuff like this unless the person saying it actually believes what they're saying, in which case there's not much that can be done for them at that point.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
Dark, you're acting like a petulant child. Manchu disagrees with you, and the opinions of other members have proved that this issue is incredibly divisive, but you're acting as if we've just mugged you, smashed the urn containing your grandma's ashes on the pavement, and then kicked your puppy into an open fire.

The impression I'm getting is that you started this thread in order to have argument, and your complete collapse into some sort of "everyone is against me" state only suggests that if you ever intended to have a decent discussion about it then you abandoned that idea pretty damn quickly.

Drop the whole "I'm disappointed in you" act, and quit trying to lynch Manchu because he opposes your viewpoint.

I have debated things with Manchu before, and he follows a pretty tight script. Once he disagrees with you, the thread usually devolves into his extreme parsing of language until everyone is talking in circles.

And yes, I do feel mugged. I absolutely disagree that what Psienesis stated here was not a derisive comment about white people. To be told that his use of "Whitey McWhiteBoy" could be replaced with "just a white guy" is insulting, because he could have done that. But he didn't, he chose to use a ridiculous term to make a point.

For the record I am disappointed. I am disappointed that language I see as divisive is dismissed as harmless because that means I get to enjoy more such speech in future threads. Great news!

 Manchu wrote:
At this point, yes I am calling shenanigans. Your argument is that "Whitey McWhiteGuy" is preemptively racist at least because you assume (with zero evidence) that the surname prefix "Mc" is intended to evoke the racist slur "mick." "Mick" is not even a slur against white people generally.

Mc is the phonetic equivalent to mick. You hear it when you say the term Whitey McWhiteBoy. Is it impossible to see how that, along with the dismissive term boy, and the redundancy of two usages of the word white would come across as racist? Sure, you're saying it isn't racist in the other thread's case because you don't see the harmful intention there, but I do see the intention as being harmful, as far as it is inflammatory speech designed to elicit a response.



I have a difficult time believing you are arguing that "Whitey McWhiteBoy" is a preferable phrase to "generic white guy" in terms of having a reasonable conversation about race, but yet you are stating that they have the same intended meaning.

Finally, people will stop calling me a chuwero.

@DarkTraveller777

Your passive aggressive personal attacks are completely unnecessary.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
I have a difficult time believing you are arguing that "Whitey McWhiteBoy" is a preferable phrase to "generic white guy" in terms of having a reasonable conversation about race

It is good you are having difficulty believing that because it is not what I have been arguing. I have been very clear from my first post ITT - While the kind of phrases you mention might hypothetically be used in a racist manner, such is not the case in thread you called out. In that thread

- no one is being attacked for being white
- no one is claiming being white is inferior
- no one is evoking stereotypes about being white

Your argument that the phrases are rendered racist because the concept of being white is juxtaposed with the surname prefix "Mc-," which is in turn homophonous with the slur "Mick," is totally unconvincing. To begin with, "Mick" is not even an anti-white slur. More importantly, there is no evidence that anyone meant to evoke prejudice against Irish people, much less by specifically referencing the "Mick" slur. But that's no surprise considering there is not even evidence that anyone meant to evoke prejudice against whites or anyone else.

Now - I also understand that you don't like the phrases. You not liking a phrase does not make it racist. It does not make a phrase against our rules, either.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Manchu, and in Dakka in general. I expected better of this place.

Manchu is NOT the entirety of Dakka and Manchu (fortunately) does NOT represent Dakka in any way.

As stated before: make an elaborated post, referring to threads / posts in questions and raise your concerns to yakface / legoburner. They represent Dakka's official stance and they, ultimatively, decide what's okay and what isn't.

"Whitey McWhiteGuy" is on the same level as "Blacky McBlackGuy" and whether one is offensive or nor depends on the context.

Bring it up to yakface and you will Dakka's official stance on it.

You don't want to openly speak against a moderator's personal opinion.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:


And yes, I do feel mugged. I absolutely disagree that what Psienesis stated here was not a derisive comment about white people. To be told that his use of "Whitey McWhiteBoy" could be replaced with "just a white guy" is insulting, because he could have done that. But he didn't, he chose to use a ridiculous term to make a point.

For the record I am disappointed. I am disappointed that language I see as divisive is dismissed as harmless because that means I get to enjoy more such speech in future threads. Great news!

I have a difficult time believing you are arguing that "Whitey McWhiteBoy" is a preferable phrase to "generic white guy" in terms of having a reasonable conversation about race, but yet you are stating that they have the same intended meaning.

As the son of an Irish mother and Cornish father, I find nothing offensive in this term. 'something Mcsomething' is used in conversation quite often to refer to a 'somebody' in a conversation, in Britain, and has sweet FA to do with citing something racist (and we'd associate Mc far more with Scotland, for the record).

Eg: bloke walks past covered with football team clothing on; 'Have a look at Footie McFootball over there!' or guy walks into FLGS covered in 40k bling 'look out, it's Count Nerdy Von Geekenstein' (also not a slur at Germans...). The interjection of a 'Mc' or 'Von' in these cases is integral to pointing out you're referencing a name in the humor.

And if 'Mick' really is derived from Mc (and not Michael, as 'Paddie' is from Patrick, both hugely popular Irish names) then it's still derived from and not interchangeable with, which still leaves the term 'mcsomething' as harmless.

I despise racism, I just really can't see it here.

This thread went downhill the moment OP compared two completely different things such as Whitey McWhiteguy and Blackie-Watermelon-Face.

Might have been a worthwhile discussion of he would have compared Whitey McWhiteguy to Blackie McBlackguy, which would have both been names that focused solely on race.

Isn't the stereotypical Irish name O'Anything and not McAnything anyway?

 d-usa wrote:


Isn't the stereotypical Irish name O'Anything and not McAnything anyway?

Well, technically the Irish is 'Mac' not 'Mc' but a lot of the names cut the a out in the US. It's a common Gallic prefix that means 'Son of'. 'O' being 'Grandson of.' One or the other is probably more common depending on where you live.

If it means anything, and it really doesn't in this thread, in my life as a Scottish-Irish male living in Scotland with Scottish and Irish fiends and relatives I have yet to ever see someone get offended over the use of the term Mc or Mac in this context. Heck I don't think I've ever even heard someone seriously try to use Mick as a way to upset someone unless it was on an American TV show, probably set before the 50s.

Actually putting 'Mc' into a funny little jab at someone is something I definitely see as far more common here than anywhere else. Case and point, I really called someone Pretty McPretty which was a light hearted jab at reducing their worth to their looks for a joke. The 'Mc' part is the very commonly used format of this joke. No one is going to get upset with this unless they are midway through a serious mental breakdown.


Aw man I shouldn't have said anything, I'm totally gona get baned by the evil Manchu.

 Casey's Law wrote:
Actually putting 'Mc' into a funny little jab at someone is something I definitely see as far more common here than anywhere else.

It is also extremely common in the USA and has the exact same meaning MGS attributes to its usage in Britain:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
'something Mcsomething' is used in conversation quite often to refer to a 'somebody' in a conversation, in Britain, and has sweet FA to do with citing something racist

 d-usa wrote:
Might have been a worthwhile discussion of he would have compared Whitey McWhiteguy to Blackie McBlackguy, which would have both been names that focused solely on race.

Good point. In fact, OP linked to his original interlocutor explaining that is exactly what he intended:

 Psienesis wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
...and the cast of COD is more Whitey McWhiteBoy.

Could you stop this? Could you just say white? Or at least extend the cute naming convention to other skin colors? I'd love to see what you do with brown or yellow.

Once we have "generic Black protagonist" or "generic Asian protagonist", I will do so. Unfortunately, they don't exist.

Equating "Whitey McWhiteBoy with "Blackie-Watermelon-Face" shows OP did not understand Psinesis's point.

 Casey's Law wrote:
Aw man I shouldn't have said anything, I'm totally gona get baned by the evil Manchu.

 Manchu wrote:

 Casey's Law wrote:
Actually putting 'Mc' into a funny little jab at someone is something I definitely see as far more common here than anywhere else.

It is also extremely common in the USA and has the exact same meaning MGS attributes to its usage in Britain:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
'something Mcsomething' is used in conversation quite often to refer to a 'somebody' in a conversation, in Britain, and has sweet FA to do with citing something racist

I totally agree, I think the pair of us are basically saying the same thing and coming from similar view points on the subject.

I'd be interested to see how the OP feels about the use of the term, 'token black guy'.

 Manchu wrote:

 Casey's Law wrote:
Aw man I shouldn't have said anything, I'm totally gona get baned by the evil Manchu.

I can't believe you just laughed at me. I'm telling Yak and Lego on you! One rule for you guys and another rule for all of us. Fascists.

 Casey's Law wrote:
I'd be interested to see how the OP feels about the use of the term, 'token black guy'.

Or the name "Dies First" for black characters, which was also mentioned in that thread.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
I despise racism, I just really can't see it here.

I too despise racism, even when it's aimed at white people (gasp!), but I can't see it there either.

 Aesop the God Awful wrote:
Or the name "Dies First" for black characters, which was also mentioned in that thread.

Along with "Attitude Brown."

 Manchu wrote:
Along with "Attitude Brown."

Defining pretty much every character Will Smith has ever played (and most of the ones played by Ice-T). Now that it's brought up, I've never understood why that trend with the casting of black actors into basically the same role in most TV shows and many movies has never drawn much attention.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Yeah, I see where this is going.

And Mick is a racist term directed at Irish. Yes, no one in that thread specifically bashed Irish in name, but they made the generic white guy a "Mick" by adding the Mc to the term Whitey McWhiteBoy. Last I checked not every white person in the world is of Irish ancestry, but you sure wouldn't know that after the gross generalization of whites in that thread. Because according to that thread all white guys are Mc's.

The people of Scotland would question Mc being used in purely Irish names, we have plenty of surnames that use it as well.

 LordofHats wrote:
I've never understood why that trend with the casting of black actors into basically the same role in most TV shows and many movies has never drawn much attention.

You would have to describe in a bit more detail exactly what you mean but the idea that black characters are often portrayed as 'streetwise' and no-nonsense has been criticized (just not condemned).

 Manchu wrote:
'streetwise' and no-nonsense has been criticized (just not condemned).

Basically this, though I'd expand streetwise and no-nonsense to include a sort of bounding (to the point of obnoxious) confidence. Such characters also often get portrayed as being obsessed with material things but I couldn't find a fancy way to work that into the name . That's the Attitude part, but I'm also rolling into it the larger cultural observation that we tend to be more inclusive culturally towards black men with lighter skin tones than those with darker tones (hence the 'brown' part of Attitude Brown).

In any case, I think "Attitude Brown" is a good example of a phrase that points out race as an issue without being racist.

 Manchu wrote:
In any case, I think "Attitude Brown" is a good example of a phrase that points out race as an issue without being racist.

As is "Whitey McWhiteboy".

I interpret the Mc prefix in the presented context to be connected to McDonalds, as in a chain restaurant that is always the same. When you see development of large houses that all have the same blocky shape they're called (at least on the east coast in the US where I've lived) Mcmansions, not because people think they're Irish but to point out their bland sameness. Whitey McWhiteboy, to me, is a term that appears to refer to the collection of white male tropes. Another example of this kind of use of Mc would be, Oh look another late night movie featuring Det. Alcoholic McStripperbanger.

Wikipedia has an article about McWords that I believe applies to this discussion.

Exactly what Prestor said.

I was also going to reference the McMansions and the McChurch as I was always under the impression that adding "Mc" to something is to symbolize ubiquitous and often bland presence, just like McDonalds restaurants.

If you think that adding "Mc" prefix to something as a pejorative is some kind of slur against Irish people, you're seriously grasping.

I am offended that a quote of my own words got this thread started, and I wasn't even invited to the party!

A bit of history on the ethnic background of Yours Truly:

On my father's side, the patriarchal line goes back 10 generations of Scot/Irish heritage, until it is lost in poor record keeping and being poor and Irish or poor and Scottish. Thus, a whole lotta Micks on my dad's side of the family. Lotta red hair and freckles, too, which I somehow avoided, even though my dad, my dad's dad, and his father, too, were all red-haired and freckled. My sister could probably pass for Irish or Scottish, though, being freckled, blue-green eyed, and red-blonde haired.

On my father's side, the matrilinal line is all kinds of European (French, French Jew, Irish) back 5 generations, to the time of my great-great-great-great-grandmother, who was Creek Indian. What her previous family was can only be guessed at, as anyone who would know for certain is at least 100 years dead, and our family records do not contain much of her history, other than to state that she was the daughter of a chieftain of some sort or another. Not that such things meant much in the 1870s in the eastern US.

On my mother's side, her patrilinial line is an unbroken chain of Irishmen back to at least the 17th century, before which time we don't have any records. So... a lotta Micks on that side of my family, too!

Her matrilinial line is Sicilian, which is, in the modern era, considered "white", but wasn't in the 1940s (when my maternal grandmother married my maternal grandfather, following his discharge from the US Army after WW2) because Sicilians were (obviously) Italians, which meant they were "wop-dagoes" or some other epithet. However, as previously stated, in modern belief, Italians are white people, because they're part of mainland Europe, and a very Christian culture, to boot (specifically Catholic).

Funny thing... the definition of "white person" has been very fluid, historically speaking, and whether or not being a "white person" was a good thing or not has also been fluid. Go back to ancient times, and the darker-complexioned ("olive", as the term goes) Greeks and Romans held themselves of superior blood to their much-paler (that is, "whiter") barbarian neighbors to the north. This saw a resurgence in the 18th and 19th centuries, when the study of "eugenics" started getting kicked around, and what was considered "perfect beauty" was a reference to the Greeks and Romans of the Classical Eras of both ancient empires. Ironic, I suppose, that the "Aryan race" (itself a borrowed Vedic term!) would come to view itself as the "master race", all blonde hair and blue eyes, in the late 19th through the 20th century. I'm definitely not in that group, having dishwater-blonde (read as: brown, unless the light hits it just right, then it's blonde... sort of) hair and brown eyes (again, that Sicilian blood) but it is funny how the various terms we human meatbags have used to describe ourselves and one another, both good and ill, have changed over time.

Thus, as it so happens, I am just about as "Whitey McWhiteboy" as you can get. Do I hate white people? No more so than I hate any other group of people, which is to say a lot. I'm an Equal-Opportunity Misanthrope. I just hate people in general. White, black, red, green, purple, orange, beige... I don't care. I don't like people. Want to do your thing? Go do it, just don't mess with someone else over there doing their thing, and don't mess with me doing my thing over here, but People don't seem to be able to handle that basic courtesy. People really are the worst part about society.

 Psienesis wrote:
I am offended that a quote of my own words got this thread started, and I wasn't even invited to the party!

I am offended for them. I am also offended that they are offended. I hope that you do not take offence the offensive nature of me being offended.

Prestor Jon wrote:
I interpret the Mc prefix in the presented context to be connected to McDonalds, as in a chain restaurant that is always the same. When you see development of large houses that all have the same blocky shape they're called (at least on the east coast in the US where I've lived) Mcmansions, not because people think they're Irish but to point out their bland sameness. Whitey McWhiteboy, to me, is a term that appears to refer to the collection of white male tropes. Another example of this kind of use of Mc would be, Oh look another late night movie featuring Det. Alcoholic McStripperbanger.

Well said.

 LordofHats wrote:
). Now that it's brought up, I've never understood why that trend with the casting of black actors into basically the same role in most TV shows and many movies has never drawn much attention.

It's because we're so good at it.

Whitey McWhiteGuy, as used in the thread in question, is a (very) slightly facetious way of criticizing a character (type). It does not demean white people.

To you it doesn't to others it sure as hell does.


Strangely if you say Blackey McBlack Guy thats sounds incredibly racist.

Because it is.

Please explain why.

 Casey's Law wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
In any case, I think "Attitude Brown" is a good example of a phrase that points out race as an issue without being racist.

As is "Whitey McWhiteboy".

I'm gonna disagree with that. I don't think Whitey McWhiteboy is a good term at all. It doesn't describe the character in the same way as "Attitude Brown" does, so in that case you're better off just saying "white".

The phrase in question was Scruffy McWhiteboy (or something), which is a good way of describing a common video game/film/TV series protagonist.