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Every game has problems. The amount and scope of the problems in 40k is just far greater than the problems in any of the competition's games. It has nothing to do with the competitive players that so many people want to lay the blame on. It has everything to do with poorly written, overly complicated rules that sometimes contradict each other and the exorbitant cost of said (poorly written and balanced) rules. I don't care if you play to win GTs or just want to play a beer and pretzels game, it's poor game design.

I'll be honest with you....I've stepped away from 40k.
I think its a fun game, easy to learn, very nice models, fairly low model count (painting wise) and its just a pretty fast game when I want to play a quick fun game.

I would recommend picking it up. Don't play tournaments tho that's where you end up meeting a lot of the D-Bags who just want to win. Not saying everywhere is like this tho my area is pretty friendly and everyone has a fun time.

I'd go fantasy if I were you. (I've got to be the one guy to say it I'm sorry guys)
The game is more balanced in terms of armies, there is not really such thing as winning with a list and its more based on how you play tactically. Plus the magic phase is much to my liking. Although the new 7th ed 40k rules makes the magic stuff much better for 40k which I like (sucks that I play tau tho lol)

Anyways I'd pick it up just don't take it to seriously

Honestly OP I think 40k is a game you can enjoy but there are so many other games out there now with less convoluted rules, better balance, on par or better models, fluff that is just as rich and deep even if there isn't as much of it, and so much cheaper.

I think you'd enjoy these games even more than 40k, and it would be easier to enjoy them because you don't need to find people who's idea of the game matches your own.

We have several dedicated subforums here on dakka you could look through and see if there is anything you like the look of. I'm sure the people there will unanimously invite you to join them too, this kind of reaction to this kind of thread is a uniquely GW problem, which itself is worrying.

Another issue I should point out -- 40k has an awful lot of "special" units that really mess up the very casual player, like vehicles, air units, heavies, monstrous creatures, gargantuans/super-heavies, and fortifications. Even psychic abilities and special abilities like Fear can really mess up another player if they're unprepared, and almost universally the fix isn't just to configure the same list a little differently, or play with a different strategy. Quite often, you need a model that wasn't on your side of the table.

You don't see this as much in other games.

Don't get me wrong: I love all those units, and I think it contributes to the grandness of the game. Plus they just look awesome on the table. However, it can be horrifically unbalancing if one player has access to units that the other player doesn't have a defense against. Yet another reason why a good gaming group is key

 Accolade wrote:
Yeah, I'm in agreement with jreilly and jasper in that the best way to get into 40k is in 250-500 point increments. It helps you build up your army in your preferred playstyle and prevents unnecessary investment if you decide 40k isn't your thing.

That and the rulebook, codex, and basic minis (say some troops, an HQ, some elites or whatever) are relatively good on the turnaround. Buy some minis 2nd hand, if you hate em, turn around and ebay em for about 70% of the cost.


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 chiefbigredman wrote:
I'll be honest with you....I've stepped away from 40k.
I think its a fun game, easy to learn, very nice models, fairly low model count (painting wise) and its just a pretty fast game when I want to play a quick fun game.

I would recommend picking it up. Don't play tournaments tho that's where you end up meeting a lot of the D-Bags who just want to win. Not saying everywhere is like this tho my area is pretty friendly and everyone has a fun time.

I'd go fantasy if I were you. (I've got to be the one guy to say it I'm sorry guys)
The game is more balanced in terms of armies, there is not really such thing as winning with a list and its more based on how you play tactically. Plus the magic phase is much to my liking. Although the new 7th ed 40k rules makes the magic stuff much better for 40k which I like (sucks that I play tau tho lol)

Anyways I'd pick it up just don't take it to seriously

Really? I've never played Fantasy first, I've only watched some games, but Fantasy still seems really one sided. I've seen armies with magic completely rape one that wasn't. Is this commonplace, do armies without magic just get wasted? That and cannons seem really unfair

My experience with fantasy (it's been a couple years as the local playgroups died) has been that you can have armies without shooting very easily, you can have some armies without CC really, but you can't have an army without Magic, or at least some anti-magic.

 jreilly89 wrote:


Really? I've never played Fantasy first, I've only watched some games, but Fantasy still seems really one sided. I've seen armies with magic completely rape one that wasn't. Is this commonplace, do armies without magic just get wasted? That and cannons seem really unfair

Its far from one sided. You probably just watched an inexperience player (or someone who didn't know how to use a new army) play someone who did.
Most armies (not dwarves) can bring magic and there 8 spell Lore's in the rulebook and lots of armies have their own lores they have access too. Some magic is better than others.

If your playing at 1000 points (which is super uncommon) you don't need magic if you play at 2500 points (fairly standard game size) you bring magic...if you don't your not utilizing a huge part of the game. Even if you don't take magic tho you still get dispel dice to try to dispel enemy magic. You can still win games without magic. You can win games without any shooting too its all in your tactics.
Cannons are really effective against large multiple wound models yes but I dont think they are unfair.

Huge part of fantasy is movement and deployment and there is real skill in learning tactics to out manuever and play your opponent.
You should try it out or watch more games you'll see what I mean


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 Vaktathi wrote:
My experience with fantasy (it's been a couple years as the local playgroups died) has been that you can have armies without shooting very easily, you can have some armies without CC really, but you can't have an army without Magic, or at least some anti-magic.

Dwarves don't have magic (well they get access to a few things but not like others) they still win and are tough as nails

 chiefbigredman wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:


Really? I've never played Fantasy first, I've only watched some games, but Fantasy still seems really one sided. I've seen armies with magic completely rape one that wasn't. Is this commonplace, do armies without magic just get wasted? That and cannons seem really unfair

Its far from one sided. You probably just watched an inexperience player (or someone who didn't know how to use a new army) play someone who did.
Most armies (not dwarves) can bring magic and there 8 spell Lore's in the rulebook and lots of armies have their own lores they have access too. Some magic is better than others.

If your playing at 1000 points (which is super uncommon) you don't need magic if you play at 2500 points (fairly standard game size) you bring magic...if you don't your not utilizing a huge part of the game. Even if you don't take magic tho you still get dispel dice to try to dispel enemy magic. You can still win games without magic. You can win games without any shooting too its all in your tactics.
Cannons are really effective against large multiple wound models yes but I dont think they are unfair.

Huge part of fantasy is movement and deployment and there is real skill in learning tactics to out manuever and play your opponent.
You should try it out or watch more games you'll see what I mean


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 Vaktathi wrote:
My experience with fantasy (it's been a couple years as the local playgroups died) has been that you can have armies without shooting very easily, you can have some armies without CC really, but you can't have an army without Magic, or at least some anti-magic.

Dwarves don't have magic (well they get access to a few things but not like others) they still win and are tough as nails

Ah, I suppose you are right. It may have been just some with better lists, but some of the ones I've seen have seem really one sided. Also, it seems like there are a lot less models, in terms of units. Like 2 or 3 bring troops. Also, don't Dwarves have access to a lot of anti-magic?

 chiefbigredman wrote:



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 Vaktathi wrote:
My experience with fantasy (it's been a couple years as the local playgroups died) has been that you can have armies without shooting very easily, you can have some armies without CC really, but you can't have an army without Magic, or at least some anti-magic.

Dwarves don't have magic (well they get access to a few things but not like others) they still win and are tough as nails

They do however have some anti-magic.

Fantasy isn't all milk and honey.

You'll need 100+ models for most armies, some armies can go well over 200 models. Often these will be in bricks of 50+ so enjoy painting that...

People say there's no net-lists and such but that's pretty much bull. You see net-lists referred to commonly if you watch a few batreps on YT.

The models however, are pretty awesome for the most part. And Fantasy seems to be getting a fair bit of love from GW at the moment.

MarsNZ wrote:
You'll need 100+ models for most armies, some armies can go well over 200 models. Often these will be in bricks of 50+ so enjoy painting that...

I feel like this is a newer development for WHFB. People always talk about it but I almost never used to play games that large... but I haven't really kept up with 8th edition so I feel maybe the larger armies are more of an 8th edition thing? My group mostly played 750-1500pts.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
You'll need 100+ models for most armies, some armies can go well over 200 models. Often these will be in bricks of 50+ so enjoy painting that...

I feel like this is a newer development for WHFB. People always talk about it but I almost never used to play games that large... but I haven't really kept up with 8th edition so I feel maybe the larger armies are more of an 8th edition thing? My group mostly played 750-1500pts.

Yes, that is a thing that is original to 8th edition and a big part of why the game died.

8th edition made it so that large blocks of foot infantry trumps pretty much everything else in the game (except magic), so people are "encouraged" to buy large amounts of infantry.


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 jreilly89 wrote:

Really? I've never played Fantasy first, I've only watched some games, but Fantasy still seems really one sided. I've seen armies with magic completely rape one that wasn't. Is this commonplace, do armies without magic just get wasted? That and cannons seem really unfair

Your experience is pretty much the norm for Fantasy.

Two armies meet in the field of battle, the one that manages to get its ubber spell of death first is the one that wins.



Hurray for Fantasy!

Yeah I thought that was the case. At 750-1500pts you could take a handful of small units or maybe one large unit and a couple of small units and have a fun game. With steadfast and the ability to fight in 2 ranks it seems like the definition of "small units" and "large units" has drastically increased, so to play a game with a handful of units you're pushing 2000+pts now.

It's expensive but fun. That's all I have to say.

I would not get into it as new player. It's too expensive for an inferior gameplay experience. There are many other games that are simply better at a lower price-point.

If you like the models and you've already got the codex and rules, and have the spare cash to start up with, then it's a bit of a no brainer.............go for it.

I started playing again in 5th ed, and am glad I bought my mini's then, as the price has sky rocketed. I play Eldar and my main boxed sets (Aspect warriors) used to cost £18 for 5 models, this went up to £23 a couple of years back. The DA also went from a 10 man squad to a 5 man squad for an extra £5 ouch.

Luckily I had a bit of spare cash each month, so have built up about 7000pts over 5 years. I haven't bought anything for the last couple though due to the price (and not really needing anything), and have relied on birthdays and christmas if I want any models.

It will depend a lot on your gaming group as to how fun it can be, luckily I have a group of friends who got back into the hobby with me. Yeah there have been a few "heated discussions" about the rules, but we've just learned to flip a coin, get on with the game and read up on disagreed rules after the game (if it can't be quickly found in rule book).

Best advice I can give you if you're playing, is don't take it too seriously. We've had a few arguments over the years, but have learned to just chill out and get on with it.

Who told you it is bad? It is the best wargaming miniature series in the world! I started playing half a year ago, and I have a collection of 200 already! Fantastic detail and mouldings!

lliu wrote:
Who told you it is bad? It is the best wargaming miniature series in the world! I started playing half a year ago, and I have a collection of 200 already! Fantastic detail and mouldings!

Not sure if serious...

Every army has access to that one Doom spell that will just mess you up and win the game. Most lists I've seen revolve around at least 2-3 Wizards, with one of them having the "I win!" spell. The armies jockey around for a bit, the spell gets cast, the opponent tries to stop it, and then they shake hands and call it a day. I've seen it happen more often then not. You HAVE TO HAVE MAGIC in your army, or you are playing with one hand behind your back. There is no way you can play Fantasy without magic in your army. Magic is that good. I don't know how the Dwarfs do it. The only really good Dwarf army I've ever seen was a massive cannon army, and it still lost... a lot.

For model count- GW has changed the force composition for Fantasy:
Your army may contain up to 50% of its points in Hero's/Lords choices, at least 25% in troops, up to 25% rares, and up to 50% specials. It's entirely possible now to field an army at 2000 points with as little as 30 models. Maybe even less... I haven't really tried to build that kind of list.

If you play a 2000 point game, it's possible to field Nagash (all 1000 points of him!) as your General (he has to be the General of your army), then you'll need another 500 points of troops, and another 500 points of whatever. If you field Nagash, I hope you have a spare 100 zombies/skeletons/ghouls laying around for his summoning (and even that might not be enough).

Warhammer is very much returning to the days of Hero Hammer, where you have one, super-duper awesome, powerful model, and then the chaff around him to take some hits. I very much believe GW will just throw force composition out the door in the next edition of Warhammer.

The points about Fantasy are all interesting but the thread is about 40K.

Herohammer was why I gave up on Fantasy many years ago, and it is part of the reason I am 90% given up on 40K.

That said I would not sell off my armies. I have hopes of doing something with them using 5th edition, or maybe GW will return to better organised, better value rules in the future.

Is WH40K really as bad as everyone says it is?

That's a large, heavy, and loaded question. Before anyone can answer that question, you have to define what a good game is, and what you want out of that game. It's a preference thing- some people want awesome looking models, others want a strong, cohesive rules set. Some people just want to grab the Toy Soldiers, a couple beers, and a bag of Pretzels.

There are a TON of threads littered throughout this forum discussing the good and the bad about 40K. You have to ask yourself first "What do I want out of 40K?", THEN people can give you their opinions on whether or not that particular aspect of the game is "good" or "bad". As a start, here are a few things to think about before answering the question "What do I want out of 40K?"

Are you a Gamer, or Hobbyist, or both? Do you like to just play the game with grey, silver, and white (no paint) models? Or do you like to convert them, add bits to them, spend hours/days/weeks painting one model? Does the appearance of your army matter to you, or would you rather pour through a codex, using math, probabilities, and statistics to hone an army list to a razors edge?

Do you like clear, unambiguous rules, or do you like "wiggle room" and "Let the dice decide!" rules mechanics?

Is the fluff and artwork more important to you? When you look at a table top, can you close your eyes and see the battle, with the models moving around and shooting/fighting?

Do you have a lot of spare time and disposable income? Who will you be playing with? Your friends? Neighbors? Is there a gaming group already established at the FLGS? Or will you be traveling and playing the game at other venues (in which case, army portability becomes an issue).

How do you want to feel while you are playing? How do you want to feel after the game? Do you argue about 1/8", or do you just let your opponent have it? Do you want to drink a soda, beer, tequila, water, or nothing at all while playing? Do you want to be around people your own age, or younger/older people?

As a side note, if your doing Tequila Shots while playing 40K, I hope you are not around children or planning on driving...

TLDR; The question should be "This is what I want out of 40K. Is this the game for me?" rather then "Is WH40K really as bad as everyone says it is?".

A good rule set by definition should be clear and concise instruction set , of how to play the game.

40k has not got a good rule set by this basic definition.

The cost of collecting a 40k force/faction/army that is at the generally used level of play is much higher in terms of time effort and money , than other games systems.

Objectively comparing actual measurable metrics, 40k is not as good as the other game systems .

In all honesty, I love 40k. Despite all of the games flaws/GW's failings, for me it is still awesome. The miniatures are great and the game is enjoyable, especially if you play with the right people; and the fluff is top notch.

GW definitely deserves some flak, they have the business sense of a dead badger, and 40k has it's imbalances/holes, but many people get carried away and fail to look at the positive sides as well as the negative.

For me no other games or miniatures company comes even close in terms of awesome factor.

Hi SoggyKittenz.
If your personal opinion is that 40k is the game for you despite all of the 'issues.'
Then you have made an informed choice about your hobby,which is great.

But some people seem to want to ignore the factual problems and issues when discussing 'how bad 40k really is' .
And that is doing a disservice to people who are genuinely unaware of other options.

Its still is a game of 40k if you use other rule sets and or other minatures but keep the inspiring background!(Despite what GW tell you.)

Hi SoggyKittenz.
If your personal opinion is that 40k is the game for you despite all of the 'issues.'
Then you have made an informed choice about your hobby,which is great.

But some people seem to want to ignore the factual problems and issues when discussing 'how bad 40k really is' .
And that is doing a disservice to people who are genuinely unaware of other options.

Its still is a game of 40k if you use other rule sets and or other minatures but keep the inspiring background!(Despite what GW tell you.)

I'm not sure I follow, do you mean to say that i'm ignoring the problems and issues, or are you saying something else..

Either way, I know the problems are there, and found that it really does depend on the people you play with. I would recommend trying other games out if you wanted to really be competitive, as 40k does fail to handle this aspect well; Mono-build lists everywhere and loopholes that make you want to hit things, so try malifaux or bolt action. For more casual gaming, 40k works just fine, and is very entertaining (although this is a little subjective).

Hi SoggyKittenz.
I was referring to the fact you posted you are aware of all the issues with the 40k rule set, but you and your player group have found ways to work around them to have fun.Which is a genuine and honest way to communicate about 40k game play.

Eg the statement;-
'If you are prepared to put the time and effort in finding like minded people prepared to fix/RAI the 40k rules in the same way, you can arrive at a fun game of 40k, that is worth the effort.'
(Basically what you wrote.)

Is more helpful and honest for new players, than;-
'If you are not having fun, YOU are to blame !You are a WAAC/FAAC(delete as appropriate) player .'

'There is nothing wrong with the rules,or game balance, its just picky competitive players that have problems.'

These type of statements are not honest or helpful.As they try to put blame the issues with the rules on the players NOT the rules writers.
(One of these groups gets paid to write/develop 40k rules , the others do not. )

No one has said that you can not have fun playing 40k with like minded players.

ONLY that other game systems do not require so much time and effort to arrive at a fun game , as 40k does.

So compared to other game systems 40k is that bad.
(Not completely unplayable or so bad it invalidates all effort of the players.)

But for a game with 40k 's level of simple game play , and focus on narrative style.
It has over complicated rules* , and counter intuitive use of F.O.C and PV.**

*40k uses several resolution methods to cover a single interaction.
**Including F.O.C and PV infers the game is suitable for fun random pick up games.But the level of balance is simply not good enough for this.

In short , a game of 40k can be fun DESPITE its poor rules. 40k is NOT fun because of the rules GW writes, but because of the attitude and effort of the dedicated players.

In short I thought you post was a genuine insight into the way 40k has to be enjoyed.I wanted to commend you on your post!

foureyes69 wrote:

$120 is the price of me getting all the modeling supplies I'd want + a couple units to paint, I did some googling and it's about ~$100 more for the rest of the 500 point DE army I wanted to make, plus or minus a few dollars depending on how good the deals I can get on ebay are. So really the total investment I'd have to make to be able to field an army would be about $220; $80 for supplies and ~$140 for the models. I don't have the friend group for it yet, but I live in a decent sized city and I'm fairly easy to get along with haha. $120 is more the cost for me to get supplies + models to see if I enjoy the painting/modeling side of things. I already have the 40k 7th Ed rulebook/DE Codex so that's not factored into the entry price.

500 points will probably be too small to get a decent game out of it. I'd suggest you go for Kill-Team then. You have far less problems with all sorts of complications (no flyers, no special commander snowflake units, no big tanks and superheavy walkers...). Still, right now, the only two things going for 40k is the IP behind it and it's widespread availability, though I hear warmachine is quite popular too by now...

No one has said that you can not have fun playing 40k with like minded players.

My opponents are necron, eldar, eldar+deldar and GK. Technicly instead of the eldar and deldar combo I could play against demons, but they are hard to transport so the chance is slim for that. I can try to play other people, but then I get strickt ETC and RAW rules. Which is even more un fun then the house ruled stuff we play. I am unable to have fun playing. Before the GK change our friend had no fun playing and neither did we playing them, even me where his army was the only one I could beat.

I'm not going to read the other posts here and/or get involved in the current discussion; but instead just offer another opinion:

If you have the people, or the potential to get people, involved in your own experience - it's TOTALLY WORTH IT. Check out my blog (http://atticwars40k.blogspot.com/), we have a great group, and play regularly, and thus LOVE 40K.

But if you don't have the people, or at least a decent club nearby with a fun community - you'll be spending money with little payback (except your painted works of art). In that case I'd say either start really small or don't bother.

I enjoy it in my own way. I mainly paint and read the books, but I don't think there are many people in my area with a similar approach to the game, so I don't play much.

I love this forum though. People coming to a forum about a thing to tell everyone on the forum how bad the thing is. It borders on sociopathic at times.

If it was so bad they would stop reading the forum and take up golf.