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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/20 07:19:16
Subject: Is WH40k really as bad as everyone says it is?
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Bloodtracker
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It's a game, and like all games, whether or not its fun is so incredibly subjective that the only way you will get to know for certain is to try in and see if you like it.
Ask to borrow models, play some games, see if you can have an experienced player walk you through it, and network with players so you can get multiple viewpoints on the game as it stands with the locals.
At the end of the day, what is fun for me might not be fun for you. I played Warhammer 40K from Rogue Trader (Color me cobalt!) to 6th edition, dropped off sharply, and at the on set of 7th edition, I got rid of my Grey Knights, Orcs, and Ultramarines as the game went in a direction that i didn't want to go in.
I picked up Warmachine, because i like the rules set better, i got in with some guys playing AT43, and really like that game, as well as testing some Malifaux right now, and that game is just creepy and cooky, and all together spooky, but incredibly entertaining and fun.
Its all about what you want to get out of the game, but understand a few key points, regardless of whether you think I'm a hater or an apologist.
1. The rules are horrid. People can make excuses as much as they want, but they are terribad. Nothing short of killing off the current rules set in its entirety will ever get close to fixing this pile of crap they call rules.
2. The models are great, but they arent the only company producing great looking models. I highly suggest, if you love hobbying more than playing, look into Infinity, and if you don't care about the game at all, all model lines have beautiful looking models. WMH has Bradigus Thoryle, Harbinger of Menoth and a host of other AMAZING models to look through, Infinity has the cool electro sword space age peeps, AT43 has the americans or allies, Malifaux has....well....its Malifaux, look it up. i cant really describe it other than Amerian McGees Alice meets Nightmare Before Christmas and they had a love/hate partial birth abortion that somehow lived into a vindictive little axe murdering child.
3. Check for the longevity of the players playing in your local area. WH40k is not a game that you will be able to play a pick up game easily with. it just isn't, because the rules require repairing before people will play a game, so if you're going to try to get into a game group, make sure they will stick around for a while, and on top of that, hang out with them and make sure that they are people you WANT to hang around with. If you don't want to play against your opponents, you wont enjoy the game.
Lastly, don't be afraid to admit it isn't your game. I have seen players get into the game because they want A game to play and it ends up costing them money for a game system they wont enjoy. Be open to playing multiple games and choose the ones you want from there.
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"exitus act a probat"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/20 12:25:12
Subject: Is WH40k really as bad as everyone says it is?
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
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Sc077y wrote:It's a game, and like all games, whether or not its fun is so incredibly subjective that the only way you will get to know for certain is to try in and see if you like it.
Ask to borrow models, play some games, see if you can have an experienced player walk you through it, and network with players so you can get multiple viewpoints on the game as it stands with the locals.
At the end of the day, what is fun for me might not be fun for you. I played Warhammer 40K from Rogue Trader (Color me cobalt!) to 6th edition, dropped off sharply, and at the on set of 7th edition, I got rid of my Grey Knights, Orcs, and Ultramarines as the game went in a direction that i didn't want to go in.
I picked up Warmachine, because i like the rules set better, i got in with some guys playing AT43, and really like that game, as well as testing some Malifaux right now, and that game is just creepy and cooky, and all together spooky, but incredibly entertaining and fun.
Its all about what you want to get out of the game, but understand a few key points, regardless of whether you think I'm a hater or an apologist.
1. The rules are horrid. People can make excuses as much as they want, but they are terribad. Nothing short of killing off the current rules set in its entirety will ever get close to fixing this pile of crap they call rules.
2. The models are great, but they arent the only company producing great looking models. I highly suggest, if you love hobbying more than playing, look into Infinity, and if you don't care about the game at all, all model lines have beautiful looking models. WMH has Bradigus Thoryle, Harbinger of Menoth and a host of other AMAZING models to look through, Infinity has the cool electro sword space age peeps, AT43 has the americans or allies, Malifaux has....well....its Malifaux, look it up. i cant really describe it other than Amerian McGees Alice meets Nightmare Before Christmas and they had a love/hate partial birth abortion that somehow lived into a vindictive little axe murdering child.
3. Check for the longevity of the players playing in your local area. WH40k is not a game that you will be able to play a pick up game easily with. it just isn't, because the rules require repairing before people will play a game, so if you're going to try to get into a game group, make sure they will stick around for a while, and on top of that, hang out with them and make sure that they are people you WANT to hang around with. If you don't want to play against your opponents, you wont enjoy the game.
Lastly, don't be afraid to admit it isn't your game. I have seen players get into the game because they want A game to play and it ends up costing them money for a game system they wont enjoy. Be open to playing multiple games and choose the ones you want from there.
Can't exalt this post enough. This is spot on advice. The key thing about 40k is that it is what you make of it:
If you want a game with solid rules that you can play all types of players at a game store, then 40k is not that game because the rules are awful and you need to decide how to interpret a lot of rules with your opponent because they are so vague, and this results in different opponents having different interpretations which can lead to confusion and disagreements.
If you don't like the fact that the units you might like are going to be bad enough to cost you the game before you roll, just because you included them, then 40k isn't the right game because the army lists are full of choices like that for seemingly no reason other than nobody bothered to actually test the unit in a variety of scenarios but thought up a statline and abilities, played it a handful of times and had them randomly not completely suck, and threw them in.
If you like the models and background and have a regular group of people to play with, where you can all agree on how to interpret the vague rules and there's an unspoken gentleman's agreement not to play cheese lists because then nobody has fun in those cases, then 40k is a fine game for that situation, because all signs point to that being the intended way to play the game since that's basically how the GW designers play the game.
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- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/24 14:07:03
Subject: Is WH40k really as bad as everyone says it is?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Isn't it true that if one wanted to play a table top game its best to buy into a game thats well supported in your area?
First consider what your playing base is. This isn't collecting butterflies. These are social games.
Try playing Warzone in my area!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/24 15:10:22
Subject: Is WH40k really as bad as everyone says it is?
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2nd Lieutenant
San Jose, California
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Kilkrazy wrote:Speaking personally, I used to enjoy it but it simply has become too expensive and at the same time less enjoyable in various ways, and the balance point has been crossed. My money and time is better spent on other games.
As stated, this is my personal experience.
Which is the same conclusion I, and probably a lot of others as well, came to regarding 40k.
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Solve a man's problem with violence and help him for a day. Teach a man how to solve his problems with violence, help him for a lifetime - Belkar Bitterleaf |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/24 16:28:38
Subject: Is WH40k really as bad as everyone says it is?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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jasper76 wrote:Some people like rules bloat and excessive dice rolling. It is a dice game, after all. And I like the fact that 40k has a gazillion different rulkes with a gazillion different weapons...its an over the top sci-fi game.
These are only failures to your tastes, not to everyone's.
Seriously? Name one. Name yourself and be the first. I know nobody who likes complicated, bloated and redundant rules that do not add realism or flair but do a hell of a job making "this unit has +1 BS" as complicated as humanely possible.
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Waaagh an' a 'alf
1500 Pts WIP |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/24 17:43:27
Subject: Is WH40k really as bad as everyone says it is?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Rules are fine as an overall system. Tweaks are needed to bring some things into comparable power levels.
Codexes are of course not balanced, but look at the top 8 lists of the BAO 2014 tournament:
White Scars bikers with a knight
Ultramarines drop pods - sternguard and tacticals
Eldar/DE - wraithblades/DA in WS (3 WS), jetbikes, warp spiders, 2 wraithknights, allied baron+warriors
Tau Empire - 3 riptides, fire warriors in fish, 2 hammerheads, 2 broadside teams
White scars/iron hands - tacticals in rhinos, thunderfire cannons
Necrons - royal court, warriors in scythes, annibarges, wraiths, pylons
Necrons/CSM - similar but with chaos lord, cultists and a heldrake
Ultramarines drop pods - sternguard, tacticals, an assault squad(!)
All I ever see is whining about wave serpents and riptides, and yet there is one eldar list and one tau list in that top 8.
Even the tyranid players are happy at the moment as the new units and tyrannocyte drop pod are good.
If you think this is unbalanced tournament play, you should rewind to 1996 and play Magic:The Gathering. One deck completely dominated that season, and the challengers to it were really, really focused on that meta.
Until we have a proper organised play structure, 40K is going to be - relatively - unbalanced. I think it's not bad at the minute, and it's getting slowly better. Here's some tips for not getting frustrating matches:
1) everyone plays a competitive list
2) make sure there is enough terrain (I see far too many games with far too little terrain, which favours certain factions)
3) play maelstrom, or play partial maelstrom
4) Restrict FW and LoW. Really don't think these are actually 40k - often they're experimental, and LoW in a 40K game to me is just silly... if I wanted to play with Titans, I'd play Epic.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/24 17:48:47
Subject: Re:Is WH40k really as bad as everyone says it is?
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Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought
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Case and point: I bought my first Warmachine starter kit, me, Mr 40k got-more-models-than-I-know-what-to-do-with.
It is making wayyyyy too much sense.
No rage-quit here, I will still play eventually, we just agreed to separate to go date others for a time...
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A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/24 18:11:27
Subject: Re:Is WH40k really as bad as everyone says it is?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Talizvar wrote:Case and point: I bought my first Warmachine starter kit, me, Mr 40k got-more-models-than-I-know-what-to-do-with.
It is making wayyyyy too much sense.
No rage-quit here, I will still play eventually, we just agreed to separate to go date others for a time...
That's like 8-9 models per side. Your 40k game will have so much more than that, not to mention more choice of different types (bikes, fliers, transports, tanks, etc). It's just a very different game -- i think 40k would be pointless with a 5 man tactical, hero, and three terminators.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/24 18:37:47
Subject: Re:Is WH40k really as bad as everyone says it is?
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Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought
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Ooops, bad quote by me.
From Talys: That's like 8-9 models per side. Your 40k game will have so much more than that, not to mention more choice of different types (bikes, fliers, transports, tanks, etc). It's just a very different game -- i think 40k would be pointless with a 5 man tactical, hero, and three terminators.
So is that a "for" or "against" 40k?
I play with even less models in X-wing and have huge fun.
The larger model count for 40k may arguably be a requirement for a fun game.
You need them all to distract you from the boring, random, choiceless game mechanics.
Second edition lumped so many special abilities on individual models you HAD to play small skirmish games since so much was going on.
The last few editions have replaced the individual models with entire units acting little better than hit-points
So far, Warmachine looks like it is a true skirmish game so the smaller model count is it's comfort zone.
I saw just last night some 30 odd models per side and the extra huge warjacks fielded so larger games are doable.
Steam/magic powered bikes, transports and fliers would have to be pretty angry looking to be accepted in that setting.
Anything resembling a train or coach repurposed will do as a tank or transport however.
I am sure we will see zeppelins soon enough.
40k I guess is unnecessarily complicated, too many steps to bring about a final "action" I feel rather than all that dice rolling I should just look up a table / chart (throw darts at it?) or check tea leaves. Too much random, not enough choice. You need all those models so from actual statistics you may get a result you were pointing your army to.
I think little can compare to the size and drama of a 40k game but few can compare to the HOURS of play to complete a game.
I do like 40k but it is so imbalanced you really cannot take a win or loss seriously when calculating the odds.
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A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/24 18:58:09
Subject: Re:Is WH40k really as bad as everyone says it is?
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
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Talys wrote: Talizvar wrote:Case and point: I bought my first Warmachine starter kit, me, Mr 40k got-more-models-than-I-know-what-to-do-with.
It is making wayyyyy too much sense.
No rage-quit here, I will still play eventually, we just agreed to separate to go date others for a time...
That's like 8-9 models per side. Your 40k game will have so much more than that, not to mention more choice of different types (bikes, fliers, transports, tanks, etc). It's just a very different game -- i think 40k would be pointless with a 5 man tactical, hero, and three terminators.
Not sure if serious...
Anyways, 40k used to be around the same size (a little larger when you factored in vehicles) because it wasn't meant to be an entire war but a specific part of a larger battle. At some point the wires got crossed and someone got the idea to go full hog Epic 28mm (because you know, why sell a bunch of 6mm figures when you can sell expensive 28mm figures?).
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- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/24 19:06:17
Subject: Is WH40k really as bad as everyone says it is?
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Tunneling Trygon
Carrickfergus, Northern Ireland
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I do it primarily for the models. I don't get to game much, anyway.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/24 20:17:38
Subject: Re:Is WH40k really as bad as everyone says it is?
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Fixture of Dakka
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WayneTheGame wrote:Talys wrote: Talizvar wrote:Case and point: I bought my first Warmachine starter kit, me, Mr 40k got-more-models-than-I-know-what-to-do-with.
It is making wayyyyy too much sense.
No rage-quit here, I will still play eventually, we just agreed to separate to go date others for a time...
That's like 8-9 models per side. Your 40k game will have so much more than that, not to mention more choice of different types (bikes, fliers, transports, tanks, etc). It's just a very different game -- i think 40k would be pointless with a 5 man tactical, hero, and three terminators.
Not sure if serious...
Anyways, 40k used to be around the same size (a little larger when you factored in vehicles) because it wasn't meant to be an entire war but a specific part of a larger battle. At some point the wires got crossed and someone got the idea to go full hog Epic 28mm (because you know, why sell a bunch of 6mm figures when you can sell expensive 28mm figures?).
Well, even during rogue trader, 40+ 28mm figures was pretty common to fill up one table side, plus a couple of vehicles. Notice I didn't even mention titans and super heavies (the epic stuff), because you can play a great game without them. Even the starter box for 40k comes with 10 tactical, 5 terminator, 3 bike 2 IC as a minimal force (for one side!), and basic set 40k makes for a pretty sparse game on 4x6.
Not at all saying WMH isn't a good game are disagreeing that the starter box is eminently plyable -just that a 17 model 40k game would be almost pointless. Deep strike, sweep, game over. Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah, me too. Most of my gaming is PC and XB1, as it s simply much more time efficient. Still, the odd 40k or WMH game if a friend is over is fun. I have plenty of models of several factions, so they don't even need to bring anything.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/24 20:30:37
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