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how are we defineing strongest?

thing is on table top we're supposed to have points to address this. man for man a space marine is better then Imperial guard, and thus a SM is more points.


I think it's worth noting that the issues with the IoM and the Eldar the OP noted are two VERY VERY differnt things.

the wave serpant is trashed because it performs perhaps too well for it's point cost. (I guess, locally not many people play eldar and those who do don't spam the things)

meanwhile the IoM shinannagens is simply the IoM being able to deploy together, well there may be some rules that perhaps interact in ways they shouldn't but by and large I think most people accept the IDEA of IG with SM allies

 dusara217 wrote:
I rank them as:

1.) Tyranids/Necrons (tie)
2.) Chaos Undivided
3.) Eldar
4.) Imperial Guard
5.) Adeptus Astartes

This is about which of the factions are the straight-up strongest in a battle. The Tyranids/Necrons are tied because both have large numbers (practically infinite on the Nids), Necrons have the best tech in the Universe (tied with Eldar), and both are very tough and Tyranids have the ultimate war strategy (Hive Mind). Chaos Undivided second, because they are incredibly strong, large numbers, very tough, and have great divination, but the Necrons beat them by default, Tyranids win because infinity Nids. Eldar are third because they always know their enemies' battle plans before the battle and have fantastic, elite warriors, and the best tech in the galaxy (which makes up for their lack of numbers). Orks, because Orks have the toughness and strength and of the Astartes alongside the numbers of the Imperial Guard (though they have horrible training, very little skill, and primitive technology. Adeptus Astartes have very small numbers, which immediately put them at the bottom, but they are elitist warriors with great equipment, amazing training, and the best genes mankind can acquire.

While I'd love this if this was true, but Loyalist Astartes curbstomp the enemy virtually all the time because GW loves them as they make the most money. And let's not even get started on the Legion of the Damned, they're just broken.

Depends on the force concentration.

I would say on average...

1.) Necron
2.) Imperial Guard
3.) Eldar
3.) The Forces of Chaos as a whole
4.) Tyranids
4.) Orks
5.) Space Marine
5.) Dark Eldar
6.) Tau

...aaaand that covers it.

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
Orks can never be truly cleansed from a world. Short of exterminatus, ork spores are the most resilient life form in the Galaxy.

And no matter what Ork spores spread. When they fight, when they die.

They can be purged with fire, its mentionned twice in the Cain novels.

I refuse to accept Tau being on the bottom of the list. As far as "force concentration" goes they should definitely be above Space Marines at least, as there are a lot more Tau in the universe than there are Space Marines. Billions of Tau compared to maybe, what, a million Space Marines? Assuming that all of the 1,000 chapters are at full strength, anyway, which is kind of a stretch.

But no, never mind, I'm an idiot, because one Space Marine can kill like a billion other soldiers all by himself. Triple that number if he's a rookie Ultramarine.

 Sidstyler wrote:
I refuse to accept Tau being on the bottom of the list. As far as "force concentration" goes they should definitely be above Space Marines at least, as there are a lot more Tau in the universe than there are Space Marines. Billions of Tau compared to maybe, what, a million Space Marines? Assuming that all of the 1,000 chapters are at full strength, anyway, which is kind of a stretch.

But no, never mind, I'm an idiot, because one Space Marine can kill like a billion other soldiers all by himself. Triple that number if he's a rookie Ultramarine.

there are but how many Tau are UNDER ARMS?


Sides Space Marines may number fewer but given their warp travel technology they can cover a wider area then the Tau.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Space marines, in one book one was sent to deal with a dark eldar incursion from a crashed ship.

One.

Called it.

Much fluffwank. So impress. Amaze. Very badass. Wow.

Seriously, this is utter tripe, a fething 12-year-old could come up with gak like this in their sleep without even having to marathon the new Modern Generic FPS beforehand.

Have you read the story you're complaining about?

 Wyzilla wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
I rank them as:

1.) Tyranids/Necrons (tie)
2.) Chaos Undivided
3.) Eldar
4.) Imperial Guard
5.) Adeptus Astartes

This is about which of the factions are the straight-up strongest in a battle. The Tyranids/Necrons are tied because both have large numbers (practically infinite on the Nids), Necrons have the best tech in the Universe (tied with Eldar), and both are very tough and Tyranids have the ultimate war strategy (Hive Mind). Chaos Undivided second, because they are incredibly strong, large numbers, very tough, and have great divination, but the Necrons beat them by default, Tyranids win because infinity Nids. Eldar are third because they always know their enemies' battle plans before the battle and have fantastic, elite warriors, and the best tech in the galaxy (which makes up for their lack of numbers). Orks, because Orks have the toughness and strength and of the Astartes alongside the numbers of the Imperial Guard (though they have horrible training, very little skill, and primitive technology. Adeptus Astartes have very small numbers, which immediately put them at the bottom, but they are elitist warriors with great equipment, amazing training, and the best genes mankind can acquire.

While I'd love this if this was true, but Loyalist Astartes curbstomp the enemy virtually all the time because GW loves them as they make the most money. And let's not even get started on the Legion of the Damned, they're just broken.

I wrote what would seem most realistic. GW might make Loyalist Astartes like Primarchs in the gakky Black Library books, but realistically, they are just ten times stronger than humans, who are among the weakest races (physiologically) and thus an Astartes warrior is just an Ork with tan skin, better discipline, better tech, and better organization. Now that I think about it, Tau should be tied with IG on there, because they have the second best tech in the galaxy, and (realistically) they have the numbers that they would be able to actually make that technology count. Plus, they are far more dedicated than most humans are.

I always thought it was Space Marines, then Tyranids...

 Quickjager wrote:
Depends on the force concentration.

I would say on average...

1.) Necron
2.) Imperial Guard
3.) Eldar
3.) The Forces of Chaos as a whole
4.) Tyranids
4.) Orks
5.) Space Marine
5.) Dark Eldar
6.) Tau

...aaaand that covers it.

A few issues with this.
1.) Tyranids threaten to consume the galaxy with just 2 Hive Fleets with (potentially) dozens or hundreds of Hive Fleets on the way
2.) Orks are nowhere near up to par with Space Marines, due to better tech, training, discipline, etc.
3.)Chaos as a whole is almost undefeatable. The only reason that Chaos has yet to conquer the Galaxy is because of in-fighting



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gunzhard wrote:
I always thought it was Space Marines, then Tyranids...

Astartes can't deal with the 'Nids in a realistic battle.

Well I mean the "lore" does usually have the SM's win... but I sort of agree that nobody can really deal with the Nids.

Every army should be the strongest...in their particular combat style.

For example:

DE should be the strongest in hit and run attacks.

Orks should be strongest in all-out assault blitzes.

AM/IG should be strongest in static artillery gunlines.

Tyranids should be strongest in straight-up horde invasions.

Marines should be strongest with tactical insertion attacks.

So on and so forth. Each army should have a very specific focus that they are simply better at than everybody else.

Problems arise when a single army exceeds many others in multiple styles of warfare, thus beating the specialist at their own game. The flip side of this is when the army that is supposed to be the master of a certain style of warfare actually stinks at it.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Depends on the force concentration.

I would say on average...

1.) Necron
2.) Imperial Guard
3.) Eldar
3.) The Forces of Chaos as a whole
4.) Tyranids
4.) Orks
5.) Space Marine
5.) Dark Eldar
6.) Tau

...aaaand that covers it.

A few issues with this.
1.) Tyranids threaten to consume the galaxy with just 2 Hive Fleets with (potentially) dozens or hundreds of Hive Fleets on the way
2.) Orks are nowhere near up to par with Space Marines, due to better tech, training, discipline, etc.
3.)Chaos as a whole is almost undefeatable. The only reason that Chaos has yet to conquer the Galaxy is because of in-fighting

My reasoning is as follows

1.) Yes they did, however, they are currently stuck in a constant fight with a wide array of opponents. Also the dozens or hundreds of Hive fleets haven't manifested yet so... they don't matter.
2.) Orks have a pretty godly amount of feats dating even to the DAoT, If they ever reach that critical mass, which it has been hinting it is close to, not even a Million Space Marines could stop them
3.) Chaos is doing exactly what you are saying, in-fighting, so they crippled currently.

"potential" hive fleets does not count, any unknown factor can be nullified by an equal or greater unknown factor-you can only work with KNOWN factors.

And by known factors-necrons, by far. even nids got nothing on them.
They got a machine that can supernova any sun on demand, remotely (without moving the machine) by the simple act of touching it on a holographic map.
They consider it a high scale "gardening tool", not even a weapon.

The weapons they used in their war against the C'tan are so absurd its not even funny, one of them for example is a RETROACTIVE weapon, meaning that once you fire it, the next thing you are aware of is seeing the results of what appears to be that weapon's effect, but you don't even remember ever giving the order to shoot it, because the target never existed. these things brake the laws of space and time, and I don't mean like the warp in getting around them-they just shatter reality on a press of a button and rework the very laws of physics.
C'tan are equal to chaos gods, there were more of them-and the necrons broke them to pieces and enslaved them. by fluff they are so overpowered its no longer amusing, and if at any point they made a collective decision to wipe out everyone else in the most efficient way and without avoiding "distasteful" actions-they could wipe out all the "low edge" players within a few days. (IoM, tau, eldar, orks, non-deamon chaos, any minor race) entirely and massively cripple the "high edge" players (nids and deamons)
Afterwards you'll only ave cleanup duty on the remaining nids, and to finish building the warp seals to lock out the deamons who will eventually recover.


Just to make you realize the absurd gap between tabletop and fluff, if fluff if you somehow managed to destroy a doomsday arc (somehow), the explosion is probably taking out the entire planet with it.

This is tantamount to asking, which faction is the strongest, Terran, Zerg, Protoss or Xel'Naga.

The best answer would be NO ONE! Everyone has equal strength and weaknesses and all will win and lose at some point.

Does that answer your question?

bibotot wrote:
This is tantamount to asking, which faction is the strongest, Terran, Zerg, Protoss or Xel'Naga.

The best answer would be NO ONE! Everyone has equal strength and weaknesses and all will win and lose at some point.

Does that answer your question?

Except there's several factions, namely Chaos, Necorns, and Nids, that would ROFLSTOMP everyone if the author wasn't holding back. Chaos especially considering their endgame is consuming the universe.

 BoomWolf wrote:

C'tan are equal to chaos gods

Uh, based upon what feats exactly?

Would say choas because what ever they do in 40k reality is but a game they exist and control warp they control universes beyond the dimension on 40k real space infinite time infinite resources.

Then for tech its necrons by far
Dark eldar
Eldar

And then the rest by a distant margins
But would be orks just by sheer number and ability to adapt to environments and advance tech and just the love of war they have won already the dark millennium is there heaven no other race has adapted and thrived as much.

Tyranid can't be first because they are far to ponderous slow travel.
Tau have no chance havent got the numbers and there drive systems are inadequate for a large empire.
Imperium is lost already new tech is worse than there old tech and there empire is stifled.

Second place goes to Orkz. Their front-line soldiers are nearly endless brutes that spread as spores, and can be nigh-impossible to cleanse.

Eldar are first because their front line troops are Orkz.

On a more serious note, Eldar aren't that high on the list for open warfare. All their successes don't involve them fighting. If they take the field, they've already lost. The battle just determines how badly they lost.

Their technology does dwarf mankind (DaoT mankind was an 8, Eldar dialed it up to 11, but Necrons are hanging out around an easy 15). But their numbers are tiny, compared to most other forces. Eldar are in decline.

Numbers mean the winner is gonna be Necrons, Nids, Orkz, or IoM.
IoM is hamstrung by its bureocracy.
Orkz might be a match for Nids, but I think Necrons would beat them both.

Necrons. Hands down no contest.

Tyranid numbers are all but meaningless if they aren't engaged on the ground, and the Necrons would utterly crush the buggers in space. Same goes for Orks.

Chaos gets the Great Warding treatment.

The rest of 40k are too insignificant to matter.

bibotot wrote:
This is tantamount to asking, which faction is the strongest, Terran, Zerg, Protoss or Xel'Naga.

The best answer would be NO ONE! Everyone has equal strength and weaknesses and all will win and lose at some point.

Does that answer your question?

Uh... dude, the Xel'naga curbstomp the lesser races.

 Galorian wrote:
Necrons. Hands down no contest.

Tyranid numbers are all but meaningless if they aren't engaged on the ground, and the Necrons would utterly crush the buggers in space. Same goes for Orks.

Chaos gets the Great Warding treatment.

The rest of 40k are too insignificant to matter.

bibotot wrote:
This is tantamount to asking, which faction is the strongest, Terran, Zerg, Protoss or Xel'Naga.

The best answer would be NO ONE! Everyone has equal strength and weaknesses and all will win and lose at some point.

Does that answer your question?

Uh... dude, the Xel'naga curbstomp the lesser races.

Except the Necrons die instantly if the Emperor kicks it. Necrons can't dethrone him without killing themselves in the process, and by wiping out humanity they would probably just cause the Emperor to commit effectual suicide as a big middle finger to the Silent King for killing his species.

...what the hell alternate fanfic timeline did this info come from.

 Quickjager wrote:
...what the hell alternate fanfic timeline did this info come from.

Am I the only person who even pays attention to the fluff? It's been in the BRB for years. The Chaos Gods are eldritch abominations straight from Lovecraft that retconned the timeline into always existing and have virtually infinite armies of smaller eldritch abominations that can even blow up stars. If they weren't horrendously powerful, then somebody's not doing their job right in the eldritch horror department. Generally if any setting includes horrific abominations from beyond the wall of sleep, they're almost always the top dogs. Only thing in 40k capable of going toe to toe with them is the GEOM. Who's turning into an eldritch abomination of his own and fighting them with his own lesser eldritch abomination minions.

Necrons can make more pylons like they did on Cadia that make the warp null and void.

Once it is sealed there is nothing left to fear. Especially if everyone who feeds the Chaos Gods are dead.

 Quickjager wrote:
Necrons can make more pylons like they did on Cadia that make the warp null and void.

Once it is sealed there is nothing left to fear. Especially if everyone who feeds the Chaos Gods are dead.

The Chaos Gods are already sustained by what's in the warp, not to mention it's likely the warp is connected to other universes and the Chaos Gods either already are, or can just drift over and feast upon those. Not to mention the pylons again, are unlikely to do anything as they are only suggested means of blocking off the Eye of Terror. Chaos can still rip open holes to the materium across the galaxy, probably even the universe- you'd need to practically fill the universe with pylons, something the Necrons quite simply lack the logistical capability to do.

And again, if the GEOM's body is destroyed or he commits suicide upon the death of his race by the 'Crons, then there's nothing holding back Chaos and the universe is consumed by the immaterium. Thus causing the Necrons to immediately die due to lacking protection from the warp or being the playthings of the Chaos Gods. The only prayer the universe has (besides the eternal war continuing, as Chaos seems to have set the events up of the Horus Heresy to create a conflict that would last forever, not to mention that Konrad Curze, probably the greatest seer in 40k, saw unending eternal war) is the Eldar, Humanity, and Necrons teaming up together to fight off the warp or attempt to control it with Ynnead and the Emperor.

Plus I doubt the Chaos Gods could even be killed considering it's quite likely they possess time travel, and they already have altered the universe so after their date of birth, they retconned themselves into having always existing. Schrodinger states of existence for everyone!

When we were kids, we ran around and pretended we're shooting each other with toy weapons.
- PHEW PHEW You're dead!
- No! I have armor!

So then... what you are saying is that all the theories and prophecies that the races all came up with over 10k years about the warp actually being beatable is BS?

We got a couple things confirmed.

Chaos needs living things to feed off of.
Chaos God Nurgle wants to commit suicide by killing every living thing, believing he will come back as soon as something to live off exists.
That living thing must have emotions.

So we know Chaos can be defeated by a non-living race that doesn't feel emotions.

I wonder where we can get one of those.

 Quickjager wrote:
So then... what you are saying is that all the theories and prophecies that the races all came up with over 10k years about the warp actually being beatable is BS?

We got a couple things confirmed.

Chaos needs living things to feed off of.
Chaos God Nurgle wants to commit suicide by killing every living thing, believing he will come back as soon as something to live off exists.
That living thing must have emotions.

So we know Chaos can be defeated by a non-living race that doesn't feel emotions.

I wonder where we can get one of those.

Except there's enough people in the warp to sustain them. Chaos devouring the universe doesn't kill everyone, it just turns the universe into the eye of terror and everyone gets to be a daemon's pet.

And again, Necrons can't win. It's physically impossible as the only thing that's keeping everyone alive is the GEOM. If he kicks it then everyone immediately dies or is enslaved for eternity and the warp consumes realspace. Have you truly bare so little attention to the fluff that you didn't know this?

So then what your saying is we got

FLUFF INCONSISTENCIES!

Welp pointless to continue this discussion then :\

Half of the fluff is propaganda, the other half are speculations, and then the remaining 100% is INSANITY!

Also where is this proof that it is the Big E holding back Chaos? Baseless speculation by the IoM.

EDIT: Unless we are accepting submissions from the word of gods.

In the numbers you are likely to see on the battlefield, SM, CSM and Eldar are on top. Then Necrons, then Tyranids, then DEldar, then Tau, then IG.

Seriously, in the numbers you can field on the battlefield, IG don't stand a chance against the other factions. Marines are few but in the tiny battle scale of the tabletop they're damn near unstoppable. Eldar aspect warriors are about as good but rely on evasion instead of resilience for survival, which makes them better at tanking slow stuff like Carnifex but worse at tanking fast stuff like smaller tyranids.